DAN HSLP-48: A powerful sub 50mm heatsink

[SaperPL]

That's how I would approach this (mounting vapor chamber on AM4):



Exploaded view:



This should be fairly cheap because:

1) made of two laser cut plates with only two simple bends
2) requires no point welding - uses 8 or more rivets instead.
3) uses four flushed in bolts that are used to mount the dynatron on top of this contraption with nuts
3) uses four flushed in stand-offs used to mount this contraption to the motherboard.

Mount plates:

1mm AM4 mount plate


2mm dynatron T318 mount plate


I can't finalise this design unless I have AM4 keepout zone specs and can't seem to find any official papers on this like intel does with their sockets.

With 2mm dynatron mount plate those bends might be unnecessary but they may become useful for fan mounting.

 

[dopa]

That's how I would approach this (mounting vapor chamber on AM4):

View attachment 19686 View attachment 19687 View attachment 19688 View attachment 19690

Exploaded view:

View attachment 19683 View attachment 19684 View attachment 19685

This should be fairly cheap because:

1) made of two laser cut plates with only two simple bends
2) requires no point welding - uses 8 or more rivets instead.
3) uses four flushed in bolts that are used to mount the dynatron on top of this contraption with nuts
3) uses four flushed in stand-offs used to mount this contraption to the motherboard.

Mount plates:

1mm AM4 mount plate
View attachment 19691

2mm dynatron T318 mount plate
View attachment 19692

I can't finalise this design unless I have AM4 keepout zone specs and can't seem to find any official papers on this like intel does with their sockets.

With 2mm dynatron mount plate those bends might be unnecessary but they may become useful for fan mounting.

Actually, I started thinking that this vapor chamber design might be exactly what we need for DAN A4, and other small cases too. Dynatron R15 for LGA 2011 specs says it can cool 150W which is great considering the current best cooler Cooltek LP53 states 100W. We just need to get Dynatron to make one for LGA 115X.
Quick Google gave this: http://imgur.com/gallery/tK5Zf - "Temps went from 98C (Cryorig C7) to 61C in prime95."

 

[dondan]

I can only say it again in my test the T318 was 11°C more worse then the Nexus. The T318 with vapour chamber is good but not as good as you think.

 

[SaperPL]

I can only say it again in my test the T318 was 11°C more worse then the Nexus. The T318 with vapour chamber is good but not as good as you think.

Except you ran it on 140W TDP X99 platform CPU. And we are interested in running 65W Ryzen 7 1700 and Ryzen 5 1400X on this. 165W TDP on the radiator + some proper fan should be pretty silent in such config and there's no need to get into custom made cooler for that if you can mount the T318 one way or another on AM4.

 

[dopa]

I can only say it again in my test the T318 was 11°C more worse then the Nexus. The T318 with vapour chamber is good but not as good as you think.

Hmm...must have missed that somehow. Thanks

 

[dondan]

Except you ran it on 140W TDP X99 platform CPU. And we are interested in running 65W Ryzen 7 1700 and Ryzen 5 1400X on this. 165W TDP on the radiator + some proper fan should be pretty silent in such config and there's no need to get into custom made cooler for that if you can mount the T318 one way or another on AM4.

Who is "WE"? The Dr Zaber Team? If yes - this is the wrong thread for you because we try to develop the best heatsink not a heatsink for a 65W CPU then you can use the L9a (not i) with AM4 rentention kit. Don't get me wrong your T318 rentention kit looks interesting but it has notjing todo with the HSLP-48.

By the way don't care at these 165W of the Dynatron e.g. the AXP100 is rated for 180W. There is no standart to define this values, because what is the target temperature. Maybe Dynatron said 80°C and Thermalright 100°C.


@Topic: Today I will contact CoolJag (Company behind Nexus Low 7000/Falcon II) maybe they can make the heatsink because they are more OEM oriented. Maybe I will source only the fan from Thermalright or Noctua if possible. If not I found an other company that has a 100x100x15 fan.

 

[SaperPL]

Who is "WE"? The Dr Zaber Team? If yes - this is the wrong thread for you because we try to develop the best heatsink not a heatsink for a 65W CPU then you can use the L9a (not i) with AM4 rentention kit. Don't get me wrong your T318 rentention kit looks interesting but it has notjing todo with the HSLP-48.

By the way don't care at these 165W of the Dynatron e.g. the AXP100 is rated for 180W. There is no standart to define this values, because what is the target temperature. Maybe Dynatron said 80°C and Thermalright 100°C.

I was talking about the biggest target you can have now - most of the people won't go for X99 platform with 140W TDP cpu. Because of that, it will be hard to gather 2000+ people to drop $200 on a crowdfunded cooler when they could simply put a vapor chamber like T318 on top of it and get it over with.

I know that I have omitted the fact that some of the people might want to use 7700K, but that's a different platform and I was talking in context of AM4.

Obviously my point won't be valid until we get mITX boards, but at the same time are you sure you can deliver the cooler before those boards are widely available?

 

[Ca11idus]

I can only say it again in my test the T318 was 11°C more worse then the Nexus. The T318 with vapour chamber is good but not as good as you think.

This is true but the problem is that the nexus 7000 low r2 is not readily available and the t318 is. The t318 would only need some brackets to fit and should fit a larger range of mobo, ram, and mosfet heatsink variations. I have my 5820k at stock clocks, up to 3.6GHz, on prime 95 and it peaked at 82C on one core and after 30 minutes it settled at 70C. I ran prime 95 for a little over an hour and I was impressed with the performance.

 

[dondan]

Yes this is right but this has nothing todo with the topic of this thread. In this thread I don't search for existing heatsinks, I plan to develop my own one. And with my diagram I want to show that a heatsink with the design of my new one could be better. It would be the same if I post in the Sentry thread a new steam machine style case of an other vendor.

 

[Ca11idus]

Yes this is right but this has nothing todo with the topic of this thread. In this thread I don't search for existing heatsinks, I plan to develop my own one. And with my diagram I want to show that a heatsink with the design of my new one could be better. It would be the same if I post in the Sentry thread a new steam machine style case of an other vendor.

True true, I was just letting people know what is readily available for their current setups. Also I was really impressed with SaperPL and his t318 idea. I would love to move over to a ryzen and this would be an excellent idea for us that already have x99 systems with a t318. Not to mention you can trouble shoot your RAM issues or m.2 drives that sit next to the heatsink without removing the heatsink...

I can't wait...well I said that for the A4. I hope this heatsink venture works but it being so far out it doesn't make it a viable option for me atm.

I really hope cooljag responds to your project positively. It is awesome that they already have the basic design. My worry is what reason they had to discontinue the 7000 low. If they can make it a universal fit for the case that would be an excellent bundle option for the next a4 shipments for those who are building from scratch or wanting to upgrade the cooling capes.

 

[SaperPL]

dondan

The thing is, unless you can figure out a clever way of developing your own cooler that won't be so expensive to make / require high-end tooling, it looks like you'll end up with pretty high MOQ and price.

I think it would be easier and more possible in terms of crowd funding to make an adaptor bracket from LGA2011 to consumer grade sockets for some high-end cooling unit.

This is of course based off the info from the manufacturers you shared here earlier. There might be some manufacturer you haven't asked yet who'll make it possible, but that's just wishful thinking.

 

[dondan]

SaperPL

Currently Lian Li is helping me out in this situation and is searching for manufacturers. Furthermore I will send out a mail to EKL and CoolJag this week, so nothing is lost at this state. Yes a bracket will be easier, but I don't need to crowdfund a $3 bracket on Kickstarter.
So maybe I have luck and everything will work out as expected if not this project is a failure and I will focus on other project. If you are searching for a faster way for AM4, then make a bracket, but please discuss this in an other thread.

 

[pedrofan]

I can only say it again in my test the T318 was 11°C more worse then the Nexus. The T318 with vapour chamber is good but not as good as you think.

Dan, you should try to turn the fan upside down with the T318, it lowers down the temperature by 7/9ºC in pull configuration, at least in my computer with 5820k and three different fans.

 

[richiegore]

Hi Dan, thanks for reposting those cooling results, i still think dynatron are worth calling. Maybe a slight increase in height and changes to the fin density will alter it's performance quite a bit. Also the vapour chamber size may make a difference, it's designed for a large chip, maybe a smaller vapour chamber may be more effective for a smaller chip? Finally they may have different tooling/manufacturers costs to heat pipe coolers, probably not, but who knows! Probably you have considered all this but I just think a nice simple cooler with great compatability, reasonable noise and measurable better than lp35+noctua performance is enough.

 

[Ca11idus]

Dan, you should try to turn the fan upside down with the T318, it lowers down the temperature by 7/9ºC in pull configuration, at least in my computer with 5820k and three different fans.

I might need to try this out.

 

[raildex1]

Update:

This is a update full of bad news.



1.) Noctua refuse the project because they have no capacity and time for it

2.) Thermalright send me the price tag of it here are some numbers so you can see what we are talking about.

• Minimum Order Quantity (MOQ) = 2000 heatsinks
• Tooling fees = $35.000
• Price for the alu version = $50 + $17,50 tooling fees
• Price for the copper version = $85 + $17,50 tooling fees

I made a calculation what will be the lowest price on Kickstarter including fix costs, import, german vat, kickstarter fees, with a profit of only 10€ for each heatsink:

• Alu version: $100
• Copper version: $146

So you see if you let produce from a competitor the price will be bad. With this pricetag the Kickstarter campaign will be a fail, because I have to sell 2000 units.


What will be the next steps:

- I asked Thermalright to lower the price and give me the price from every part of the heatsink so I can see why it is so expansive
- Contacting Cryorig or be quiet! maybe they can help me out.

It's time to incorporate outside of the EU - setup shop in Singapore/HK or similar and ship everything out from there. You'll save on taxes as well. You should have enough to easily do it - and Singapore has some startup incentives as well. Why wouldn't you do it - Thermalright is in Tawian and you being in Singapore would make things easier.

When you do the Kickstarter offer some A4 cases in a bundle - everyone loves bundles. If you can get a cheaper riser as well then everything works out perfectly - you can increase your profit with the bundles.

You can get 2000 sales be confident! - start setting up an email marketing campaign (collect leads and market correctly to them), get some ads going (I think there's adsense on HF, but basically your best bet is a retargeting campaign from people browsing your threads or related threads). Put some blog posts up on your site and collect leads + potential targets. You'll end up sending them straight to your Kickstarter (when it's live) or funnel through your site to add them to your email campaign list.

 

[darthmatin]

It's time to incorporate outside of the EU - setup shop in Singapore/HK or similar and ship everything out from there. You'll save on taxes as well. You should have enough to easily do it - and Singapore has some startup incentives as well. Why wouldn't you do it - Thermalright is in Tawian and you being in Singapore would make things easier.

When you do the Kickstarter offer some A4 cases in a bundle - everyone loves bundles. If you can get a cheaper riser as well then everything works out perfectly - you can increase your profit with the bundles.

You can get 2000 sales be confident! - start setting up an email marketing campaign (collect leads and market correctly to them), get some ads going (I think there's adsense on HF, but basically your best bet is a retargeting campaign from people browsing your threads or related threads). Put some blog posts up on your site and collect leads + potential targets. You'll end up sending them straight to your Kickstarter (when it's live) or funnel through your site to add them to your email campaign list.

are you a millionaire?

 

[raildex1]

are you a millionaire?

I wish.

OT but maybe I should come up with something like Solar Roadways that seems to be a way to reach a million dollars even if it doesn't work. dondan comes up with something that actually works and is amazing and is pushing the envelope for SFX and is not a millionaire - that sort of thing makes me sad.

You don't need a million dollars to incorporate a company - even in the USA it's not that expensive.

 

[SaperPL]

It's time to incorporate outside of the EU - setup shop in Singapore/HK or similar and ship everything out from there. You'll save on taxes as well. You should have enough to easily do it - and Singapore has some startup incentives as well. Why wouldn't you do it - Thermalright is in Tawian and you being in Singapore would make things easier.

When you do the Kickstarter offer some A4 cases in a bundle - everyone loves bundles. If you can get a cheaper riser as well then everything works out perfectly - you can increase your profit with the bundles.

You can get 2000 sales be confident! - start setting up an email marketing campaign (collect leads and market correctly to them), get some ads going (I think there's adsense on HF, but basically your best bet is a retargeting campaign from people browsing your threads or related threads). Put some blog posts up on your site and collect leads + potential targets. You'll end up sending them straight to your Kickstarter (when it's live) or funnel through your site to add them to your email campaign list.

Lol, this sale pitch

You just want it to be made in your country, so you can come and pick it up in person without waiting for shipping, don't you ?

are you a millionaire?

Laughed too hard at this

You don't need a million dollars to incorporate a company - even in the USA it's not that expensive.

The point is, you don't move abroad for such small business to cut down costs if you're running it yourself and you can't have an offshore office without having the money to employ people there. Making A company, a paper company offshore may be cheap and easy. Moving your business offshore is not that simple if you aren't a millionaire.

I don't think dondan makes high enough cut on A4-SFX (or does he? ) to consider employing people abroad a good idea as an investment to cut down costs on taxes.
Until dan-cases grow enough to have continuus production and sales, I don't think moving away from his home would sound like a good plan.

 

[dopa]

Actually, I started thinking that this vapor chamber design might be exactly what we need for DAN A4, and other small cases too. Dynatron R15 for LGA 2011 specs says it can cool 150W which is great considering the current best cooler Cooltek LP53 states 100W. We just need to get Dynatron to make one for LGA 115X.
Quick Google gave this: http://imgur.com/gallery/tK5Zf - "Temps went from 98C (Cryorig C7) to 61C in prime95."

RosaJ was the one who modified the Dynatron R15 onto LGA 1151 here:

Creating a new post as the edit got me frustrated.

There is a tl;dr at the bottom.


Apologies for not getting back the edit, had a rough draft but when I went to post nothing showed up and got frustrated. (Probably a problem with using mobile and desktop at the same time)


Anyways the whole process took roughly 2 hrs total. (Prep, de-solder old caps, clean the holes, insert new caps, check for fit, solder new caps, clean, then finally install the new cooler) This process could have been done quicker; however, when I was removing the old caps, the factory solder was very tough to remove and when I went to pull them out the "stem" broke off and blocked the hole creating a pretty flat surface which was hard to remove. The install of the CPU cooler was super easy, it's not final yet as I'd like to get shorter screws in the future and may look into actually bending them in a slight S form, but not anytime soon. With the screws tightened the cooler is one with the mobo, while holding the cooler I gave the mobo a couple jiggles and received no rattle or looseness.


Pictured below shows the diagonal screws along with the new capacitors. I can't get a good photo of the gap between the base of the cooler and the top of the 6mm capacitor, but it's extremely close, not touching but maybe less than a mm.

Here are the before temps of running prime95 with fan at 100%. I had to stop the test after only 3 minutes when the CPU reached 98C as it was getting too hot for comfort. Used the Cryorig C7 CPU cooler.

Here are the after temps of running prime95 with the same fan at 100%. I stopped the test after 8 minutes as it stayed at 64C for a solid two mins. Used the Dynatron R15 CPU cooler.

Too long, didn't read: Replaced mobo caps to fit a new cooler bringing temps from 98C to 64C.

Link to imgur gallery: http://imgur.com/a/lSE8L

 

[Ca11idus]

================================================================================================

I know right? If only this could've happened sooner.

 

[ZombiPL]

When you do the Kickstarter offer some A4 cases in a bundle - everyone loves bundles. If you can get a cheaper riser as well then everything works out perfectly - you can increase your profit with the bundles.

I can't believe there are still some people who think the high price of the case is made because of the high price of the riser...

250mm 3M riser in retail costs something like $86 USD. If You order 1500-1800 pcs, then the price of this riser should be something like $30-40 USD. Even if you order 250 pcs of this riser, the main reseller of 3M officially gives you a discount, making the price of single cable at $67 USD (http://www.digikey.com/products/en?mpart=8KC3-0726-0250&vendor=19). If you order 6 or 8 times as much, the price will drop.

If case costs $260 USD (now almost $300 USD), you can't still justify it by the price of riser. There are many other factors that could make the difference.

You can get 2000 sales be confident! - start setting up an email marketing campaign (collect leads and market correctly to them), get some ads going (I think there's adsense on HF, but basically your best bet is a retargeting campaign from people browsing your threads or related threads). Put some blog posts up on your site and collect leads + potential targets. You'll end up sending them straight to your Kickstarter (when it's live) or funnel through your site to add them to your email campaign list.

Hmmm, you know that dondan did some successful product selling campaign in the past? He knows all of this and even more, and lack of knowledge in those fields isn't his concern at this moment.

 

[dondan]

ZombiPL:
This is not correct! It is in the $50-60 range and you have to add 19% vat. Also the prices in the digitkey shop are without vat.
Furthermore I think raildex don't talk about getting a discount of the 3M he talks of a new riser. I mention it in the A4-thread that I will test a new one from a different vendor. In my Kickstarter campaign a made a costs breakdown so it should be clear how the price comes together:

And now please back to topic or I am out.

 

[ZombiPL]

ZombiPL:
This is not correct! It is in the $50-60 range and you have to add 19% vat. Also the prices in the digitkey shop are without vat.
Furthermore I think raildex don't talk about getting a discount of the 3M he talks of a new riser. I mention it in the A4-thread that I will test a new one from a different vendor. In my Kickstarter campaign a made a costs breakdown so it should be clear how the price comes together:

And now please back to topic or I am out.

Right... VAT. Sorry, my bad in this matter. But the point still stays, that the cable ($50 or $60 as you say) does not have as much influence on a $300 USD pc-case as people think. Other factors does more.

And yeah, let's get back to the subject.

 

[Julio Espinosa]

I don't remember, but, have you talked to Cooltek/Thermolab (the makers of the LP53)? I might missed it.
I'm pretty sure they can help with an idea.
An steroid LP53?

 

[dondan]

Ok maybe some more background information:

To get in touch with Thermalright I had to contact the German distributor "PC-Cooling". This is the offical way for Thermalright if you are located in the EU to get in touch with them.
The problem is that PC-Cooling also want to make some money on that deal, I know this because Lian Li contacted Thermalright to find that out. So PC-Cooling work as a middle man.

Cooltek is the label of PC-Cooling. It is a rebrand of Jonsbo and Thermolab products. So if I like to get in touch with Thermolab I have to go over PC-Cooling and we have the same problem.
Directly get in touch with Thermolab or Thermalright is not possible because they want not destroy the relationship to PC-Cooling.

I think the easiest way will be CoolJag, to get a customize Nexus in full copper and a better mounting system. But we will see who is willing to build that heatsink for a normal price.


Edit: I also want to say that I don't plan to get the HSLP-48 as fast as possible on the market. For me it is important that we will have a good quality, a better performance than current products and a fair price.
If one of that project goals will fail I will not release it.

 

[David A4]

Ok maybe some more background information:

To get in touch with Thermalright I had to contact the German distributor "PC-Cooling". This is the offical way for Thermalright if you are located in the EU to get in touch with them.
The problem is that PC-Cooling also want to make some money on that deal, I know this because Lian Li contacted Thermalright to find that out. So PC-Cooling work as a middle man.

Cooltek is the label of PC-Cooling. It is a rebrand of Jonsbo and Thermolab products. So if I like to get in touch with Thermolab I have to go over PC-Cooling and we have the same problem.
Directly get in touch with Thermolab or Thermalright is not possible because they want not destroy the relationship to PC-Cooling.

I think the easiest way will be CoolJag, to get a customize Nexus in full copper and a better mounting system. But we will see who is willing to build that heatsink for a normal price.


Edit: I also want to say that I don't plan to get the HSLP-48 as fast as possible on the market. For me it is important that we will have a good quality, a better performance than current products and a fair price.
If one of that project goals will fail I will not release it.

Damn, sounds fustrating that pc-coolers would slither their way into the deal, slimy business practice.

 

[illram]

Manufacturers engaging distributors or "middle men" is pretty common in a bunch of industries, especially when a mfger is on one country and selling in another. As our kickstarter/indiegogo celebrities here know, making something is one thing, actually selling it and distributing it to thousands of people around the world is another.

 

[StrawKite]

Ok maybe some more background information:

To get in touch with Thermalright I had to contact the German distributor "PC-Cooling". This is the offical way for Thermalright if you are located in the EU to get in touch with them.
The problem is that PC-Cooling also want to make some money on that deal, I know this because Lian Li contacted Thermalright to find that out. So PC-Cooling work as a middle man.

Cooltek is the label of PC-Cooling. It is a rebrand of Jonsbo and Thermolab products. So if I like to get in touch with Thermolab I have to go over PC-Cooling and we have the same problem.
Directly get in touch with Thermolab or Thermalright is not possible because they want not destroy the relationship to PC-Cooling.

I think the easiest way will be CoolJag, to get a customize Nexus in full copper and a better mounting system. But we will see who is willing to build that heatsink for a normal price.


Edit: I also want to say that I don't plan to get the HSLP-48 as fast as possible on the market. For me it is important that we will have a good quality, a better performance than current products and a fair price.
If one of that project goals will fail I will not release it.

Dan. Use it against them. Get a middleman in Taiwan, have that middleman contact Cooltek directly, that way Cooltek don't screw up their relationship to PC-Cooling.

 

[dondan]

PC-Cooling is Cooltek It is their brand.

 

[dondan]

Dear Dan:
Thank you for your interesting in doing business with Cooljag. Sure we can manufacture the customized OEM heatsink for you.

 

[illram]

Well, that was easy.

 

[Rysen]

Well, that was easy.

Too easy but still the most important part is not done yet. We still need to know what the approximate cost will be with cooljag.

 

[mrtea45]

After just catching up on the last few pages and all their discussions that response genuinely made me lol so much i almost fell out my chair.

Great news though, fingers crossed it will lead to something.

 

[Shaav]

And its performance.

 

[darthmatin]

ZombiPL:
This is not correct! It is in the $50-60 range and you have to add 19% vat. Also the prices in the digitkey shop are without vat.
Furthermore I think raildex don't talk about getting a discount of the 3M he talks of a new riser. I mention it in the A4-thread that I will test a new one from a different vendor. In my Kickstarter campaign a made a costs breakdown so it should be clear how the price comes together:

And now please back to topic or I am out.

you dont need kickstarter. cut it. just use ur webpage shop and existing customer base.

 

[MrLahn]

you dont need kickstarter. cut it. just use ur webpage shop and existing customer base.

We all want lower prices, so it seems natural to suggest cutting out kickstarter's fees, but I believe it makes crowd funding a legal nightmare for small businesses?

 

[danger]

The noctua AM4 bracket is not compatible with the L9a/L9i, but noctua has said that they are working on a low-profile AM4 cooler that should be out in the coming weeks. Given that there are no ITX boards yet, these upcoming low-profile noctua AM4 coolers should satisfy people who are merely looking for L9a level performance.

If you're going to be doing something custom, I think it makes more sense to go bigger than the L9 - similiar to the thermalright AXP, but lower.

 

[dondan]

What is your source for the new Noctua AM4 heatsink?

Making something bigger like the Nexus or AXP is the plan.

 

[Rysen]

What is your source for the new Noctua AM4 heatsink?

Making something bigger like the Nexus or AXP is the plan.

All I have heard from them is the following:

thank you for contacting Noctua!

We're currently evaluating the possibility of a "bigger" NH-L9 cooler. Do not expect a miracle though. We're only expecting a minor temperature decrease compared to the NH-L9i

Sadly I'm not able to tell you more about this topic.

We may publish more information about this topic in the near future.

Kind regards, Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Dawid Sopata
Noctua support team

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E: support@noctua.at
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