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The price was only a fiktive idea. So currently I am not in contact with themYou are right with your pricerange it would be 120€ on Kickstarter.
If this heatsink is targeted for 'general use' rather than just for cases with a low Z-height and a flex riser, then you are now competing with a huge number of existing heatsinks with very similar designs. The AXP-100, NH-L12, Shadow Rock LP, Shuriken, Kozuti, Kodati, and so on.Yes we should be thinking realistic and develop together a heatsink that will be intersting for a huge amount of people. A full copper heatsink that will costs $100 and more for lowering the temps of some degrees will be interesting for maybe 2% of the potential buyers. A heatsing that will hide the PCIe port will be only interesting for A4-SFX owners. Let us say 30% of all A4-SFX ownerd will buy this cooler than we have a count of 530. This will be a guaranteed fail for that project on Kickstarter.
They don't have a GPU in the slot, but they use a hard (PCB) riser (seen here), which causes basically the same problem with CPU cooler compatibility as a GPU does.There are more than A4 customers that don't use the PCI-E. Silverstone has been building cases for years that can't have a gpu in the slot.
In the thread, thermalright rep mentions tootling needed for full copper (and freight) makes the price basically double. Material cost by itself is a very small part. So think about it, is there a market for this cooler where it costs twice Dan's estimate?
I think we're crossing over too far into diminishing returns. A lot of people are thinking purely as an enthusiast, but Dan's gotta think like a business person. The product will be somewhere in the middle for sure.
I think 90% of the customers bought the A4 because of it small size if I add mm here and there this case wouldn't be a success like it is. So let us concentrate on what we have and what is possible.
I am thinking of adding 9-15mm to the width of the heatsink so it will complete over the RAM and more over the I/O area.
If I will get a full copper heatsink for $70 from them what do you think will be the price on Kickstarter?
The price was only a fiktive idea. So currently I am not in contact with themYou are right with your pricerange it would be 120€ on Kickstarter.
For me it`s all about the performance so i should do testrun on Nickelplated vs Copper and se how much the difference are in temps.
Is the Copper significent better i should go on that and pay 120 Euro.
Why should I reduce cooling performance to support one motherboard?
In the next year with the Z370 Asus will have a new idea how make their high end board incompatible.
Why not buying a board like the ASRock Fatal1ty Z270 Gaming-ITX/ac, Gigabyte GA-Z270N-WIFI or MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC if you need a board that is only expansive and will give you not a single MHZ more in OC.
If you select the Strix because of the second M.2 slot, in the future there will be more boards with that feature.
The last option is removing the heatsink of the Strix and using something like this: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51j-iKDqj9L.jpg
I think 90% of the customers bought the A4 because of it small size if I add mm here and there this case wouldn't be a success like it is. So let us concentrate on what we have and what is possible.
I am thinking of adding 9-15mm to the width of the heatsink so it will complete over the RAM and more over the I/O area.
MOQ is typically at least 1000 though, and you can't really use the results of an informal poll of a couple dozen people on a forum for enthusiasts as a reliable indicator for what people more generally would pay. That said, the A4 did get something like 2k+ buyers, even at its quite high price, so even if only a fraction are interested (plus some Sentry owners), it could still be viable. The thing is, while it might be better, is it going to be enough better for people to justify the extra cost, especially if they've already got a "good enough" cooler?Just looking at the responses in this thread and the poll results about 2 people are willing to settle for the 60$ and more than 23 are willing to invest in the best performance at 120$ which is a reasonable price.
There's a saying in the car world: "there's no replacement for displacement;" meaning, a bigger engine is always going to be able to have a greater potential to develop horsepower than a smaller one, turbochargers and other gadgets notwithstanding. The same is true here: there's no replacement for a big heatsink. Expecting small coolers to be anywhere near the performance of a cooler three times the size, mass, and surface area is just magical thinking. If you want a system that runs cool and quiet with a small cooler, you need to appropriately size your thermal load - i.e., don't go for the hot "K" chips.I wanted your case for its size but I also bought the premise that cooling would be good and efficient.
Okay, and what do you suggest we use as reference? How are we backing the idea that people will purchase the cheaper version? Where is your formal data? Who said that the product will have enough demand simply because its cheap enough? All we are doing here is speculating so do not discredit other people's suggestion simply by saying that its informal when neither you nor anyone has formal data or research of what the real demand is other than people in this forum saying they want it. In fact this thread was not made based on some formal data collected by dondan but rather from the request that we gathered here in this community among the A4 and the Sentry forums, so yes my poll is actually as reliable as any other information we have right now of the demand for this product.MOQ is typically at least 1000 though, and you can't really use the results of an informal poll of a couple dozen people on a forum for enthusiasts as a reliable indicator for what people more generally would pay. That said, the A4 did get something like 2k+ buyers, even at its quite high price, so even if only a fraction are interested (plus some Sentry owners), it could still be viable. The thing is, while it might be better, is it going to be enough better for people to justify the extra cost, especially if they've already got a "good enough" cooler?
There's a saying in the car world: "there's no replacement for displacement;" meaning, a bigger engine is always going to be able to have a greater potential to develop horsepower than a smaller one, turbochargers and other gadgets notwithstanding. The same is true here: there's no replacement for a big heatsink. Expecting small coolers to be anywhere near the performance of a cooler three times the size, mass, and surface area is just magical thinking. If you want a system that runs cool and quiet with a small cooler, you need to appropriately size your thermal load - i.e., don't go for the hot "K" chips.
I think it's too speculative at this point to be useful. Like, where are you getting the price point for the aluminum version from? And without knowing what the performance will be like, or how the copper and aluminum versions would compare, how can people make an accurate assessment as to whether it's worth the cost? The best I think you can determine here is some vague indicator for willingness to pay a premium for a potentially best-in-class product. But I'd argue that without knowing how much better "best" is, the data isn't very reliable. Most people, even if they have money to spend, still place some weight on the value proposition of a particular product.Okay, and what do you suggest we use as reference? How are we backing the idea that people will purchase the cheaper version? Where is your formal data? Who said that the product will have enough demand simply because its cheap enough? All we are doing here is speculating so do not discredit other people's suggestion simply by saying that its informal when neither you nor anyone has formal data or research of what the real demand is other than people in this forum saying they want it. In fact this thread was not made based on some formal data collected by dondan but rather from the request that we gathered here in this community among the A4 and the Sentry forums, so yes my poll is actually as reliable as any other information we have right now of the demand for this product.
Drawing of what I imagine the cooler could look like.
Imagine this:
DAN COOLER 1000 XXX because a cooler like this would literally be porn
~1000 gram of full copper awesomeness
DUAL Noctua NF-A9x14 (low noise because the fans are under the heatsink)
6 heatpipes for awesome coolingpower and strength
Most beautiful SFF cpu cooler ever made
It has been done before so we know it's possible (almost, the fans was above but we'll ignore that):
Cons:
Would probably be pretty expensive.
Very specific to this case and cases with similar design or no GPU.
Drawing of what I imagine the cooler could look like.
![]()
![]()
Let me know how you like the idea here:
https://strawpoll.com/bbda3a6
I can think of a few reasons that design won't work (in the A4, at least):Imagine this:
DAN COOLER 1000 XXX because a cooler like this would literally be porn
~1000 gram of full copper awesomeness
DUAL Noctua NF-A9x14 (low noise because the fans are under the heatsink)
6 heatpipes for awesome coolingpower and strength
Most beautiful SFF cpu cooler ever made
It has been done before so we know it's possible (almost, the fans was above but we'll ignore that):
Cons:
Would probably be pretty expensive.
Very specific to this case and cases with similar design or no GPU.
Drawing of what I imagine the cooler could look like.
![]()
![]()
Let me know how you like the idea here:
https://strawpoll.com/bbda3a6
A vapor chamber with heatpipe like construction is a heatpipe. They're just differently structured versions of the same thing.It needs vapour chamber to spread heat better.
http://celsiainc.com/blog-should-i-use-heat-pipes-or-vapor-chambers/
vapour chamber can be made with heatpipe like construction coolermaster has done some (not lowprofile).
My 1000 gram Noctua NH-C14S says your wrong. Copper is plenty strong.You would in all likelihood risk damage to the heatpipes (copper is rather soft) if they were to support all that weight. Thermalright and other manufacturers even put in supports for much less weight/surface area.
Yeah, I'm no expert either. Maybe it's the nickel plating helping the NH-C14S haha.Static properties are not comparable with the NH-C14S. Most of the weight rests on top of the base block whereas your suggestion would have an extreme angular pull to deal with. But I am admittedly not an expert on metal properties, just reading reports of people kinking their heatpipes for various reasons.
Dynatron
We're here because you are looking for the best of the best of the best, sir!We are never going to push the industry by being basic AF. Imagine if the copper heatsink is a huge success. That could push the industry forward, and make producing these units even cheaper in the future.
I say fuck average, let's be more.
I think it's too speculative at this point to be useful. Like, where are you getting the price point for the aluminum version from? And without knowing what the performance will be like, or how the copper and aluminum versions would compare, how can people make an accurate assessment as to whether it's worth the cost? The best I think you can determine here is some vague indicator for willingness to pay a premium for a potentially best-in-class product. But I'd argue that without knowing how much better "best" is, the data isn't very reliable. Most people, even if they have money to spend, still place some weight on the value proposition of a particular product.
Your C14S has some extra support as well, it's just not obvious, as it looks like a seventh heatpipe.Yeah, I'm no expert either. Maybe it's the nickel plating helping the NH-C14S haha.
You're not hearing what I'm saying. You're asking people what they'll pay for a product that has no hard specs or price. How can people make an accurate judgement based on price and specs that can only really be guessed at at this point? Once dondan nails down those specifics a bit more, or at least get a better estimate, then do a poll. Then it might actually tell you something worthwhile.The thing is that what you think does not in anyway become more official or more reliable because you think so. Once again, if you have no data, no research to prove that the demand is for the cheapest version is larger how can you say so certainly that my suggestion is speculative? Your suggestion that a cheaper option will be best is just as speculative as mine. I am using the price point from what dondan provided in the comments, read all dondan's comments if you want to find out more. Copper has higher thermal conductivity than aluminum. Will that alone make it significantly better than aluminum? No but with the proper design it will. However, the source of the discussion was never whether the performance with copper will be much better for the same design that was up to dondan to find out. The discussion is on the topic of what price range the product should be targeting and for that there is no currently existing data as to what price range has the highest demand. You assume that the existing options are the most viable for the market as if something had already prove this and that more expensive suggestions will keep customers away without having any data to back that statement. Therefore my poll is not too speculative because there is no "non-speculative" standard set, you can't just call something speculative without having a standard, you are assuming that the 30-60$ price rage is not speculative without any information to back that up.
We could for sure design such a fan but I don't think people would like to wait 1-2 years for it to be ready.Noctua: Thank you for joining the party.
I see you found my thread for the developing of a special heatsink under 50mm. Maybe Noctua is interested in to work with me on that topic. The current design is based on a Thermalright heatsink because Thermalright has a 100mm fan that will perfectly use the space between I/O area and RAM. But maybe you can design a 100mm thin fan with 82mm mount points too.
Thoughts:
What are the keyfeatures of a good heatsink?
1.) A good heat transfer between CPU plate and fins area
2.) A good heat transfer between CPU and CPU plate
3.) A big surface for a good heat exchange
To optimize my current design I will analyze it based on the three tesis:
A good heat transfer between CPU plate and fins area.
We have 6 x 6mm heatpipes I think this is enough
A good heat transfer between CPU and CPU plate.
Thermalright is able to produce direct touch heatpipes. I think this will be a great option for the HSLP-48. Furthermore this will lower the CPU plate from 10,5mm to 6,5mm. So I can add some mm to the thickness of the fins.
A Vapor-Chamber is not necessary because of the tiny surface of the CPU plate. Furthermore I have to pay patent license for it if I have it correct in my mind.
A big surface for a good heat exchange.
- The surface of the current design is:
normal fins = 17 (H)mm * 121 (L) mm * 42 count = 86394mm²
small fins = 17 (H)mm * 59 (L) mm * 5 count = 5015mm²
5% lost area for heatpipes hole
Total: 86838mm²
- What does the other compatitors have?
C7 = 27 (H)mm * 97 (L) mm * 57 count * 0.75 (25% lost for heatpipes) = 111962mm²
L9i = 21 (H)mm * 95 (L) mm * 56 count * 0.85 (15% lost for heatpipes) = 94962mm²
So you see currently the HSLP-48 will have the smallest surface. To address that problem I will increase the hight to 18,5mm and the length to 130mm. Furthermore I will reduce the fin spacing from 1.88mm to 1.2 mm like the C7 and add more fins. This will increase the surface.
- Here is the new surface calculation:
normal fins = 18.5 (H)mm * 130 (L) mm * 60 count = 86394mm²
small fins = 18.5 (H)mm * 59 (L) mm * 5 count = 5015mm²
5% lost area for heatpipes hole
Total: 142269mm²
These changes will increase the surface extremely (64% more surface). But I have to talk with Thermalright about the topic why they have choosen a fin spacing of 1.88mm
Also, I assume that the AM4 socket will be supported?![]()
Socket Support: 115x, 2011 square and narrow Ilm, AM4