DAN C4-SFX: The smallest water cooling case in the world

AG1M said:
You can buy these fan already, they are called "Noctua NF-A12x15 PWM", in Germany almost 20 EUR per fan, but it's worth, best 120mm slim fan you can get IMHO.
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No- the fans that Woxys was referring to are 25mm fans made out of some new kind of plastic that is supposed to be much stronger. In turn, they can bring the tips of the fan blades much closer to the housing. That adds a little to the airflow, but supposedly also prevents air from flowing back around the fans. They debuted them at Computex, but I haven't heard anything since then.
 
masteralef said:
No- the fans that Woxys was referring to are 25mm fans made out of some new kind of plastic that is supposed to be much stronger. In turn, they can bring the tips of the fan blades much closer to the housing. That adds a little to the airflow, but supposedly also prevents air from flowing back around the fans. They debuted them at Computex, but I haven't heard anything since then.
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Yeah, these are the fans I'm referring to. Maybe the 15mm A series fans also use the liquid crystal polymer, I'm not sure. But the fans that were shown at Computed were touted as better than both static pressure and airflow fans in real-world scenarios. If anybody else were making such claims I would be skeptical but it's Noctua.
 
I don't think the slim fans are using Sterrox yet. You can clearly see the tip clearance isn't up to what they were stating for the new fan announced at Computex in the retail versions.
However.... the slim fan IS undoubtedly very very good. It's not a replacement for a full thickness fan but the performance drop isn't that bad and they're quiet at high speed also.
 
The total space is 303mm so it will fit, but it will be very tricky to move inside. For easy intallation I specified it with 295mm ( It is the same for the A4-SFX)
 
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dondan do you think it is possible to fit a single 3.5" drive?
I'm planning to use a M.2 SSD with a 3.5" drive that I already own.
 
Could there be some way for the PCIe bracket's "legs" (2 struts at the bottom) to tuck into a metal bracket somehow? That may alleviate the tension on the card hanging from its mount/PCIe slot. I still don't understand why this doesn't have an A4-style dual chamber design aside from wanting to save $40, but I'll stop bringing it up. :pigeon:
 
AlMiDaX: Yes this could fit but I will not support mounting holes for it.

QuantumBraced: We are talking about saving 50-70€ this will be $60-$84 ;)

@ALL:
Some guys requested a pass on the backside for external components like radiators under the desk or reservoir on the backside. What do you think about my implimentation of the Lian Li rubber pass?

externaltubing3eojc.jpg


Furthermore I made two versions of the middle plate. I will test both on the prototype:

middle_plate5iueg.jpg


The left version is the new one the fan's will be covered by two 120mm fan guards/grill that will be included. The cover is necessary to prevent PSU wires falling in the fan. Also the left version will have a higher air flow through the middle plate. The disadvantage is, that I have to think about a new way to mount the bottom HDD bay, because the left fan guard will block the mount points.

The right version will have not the same high airflow like the left version this could be irrelevant,but it will provide a better stability for the case and support for the current HDD bay version.

If you take a deeper look on the picture you will see that I add some slot holes to the riser to increase the airflow in the motherboard area.

What do you think about it?
 
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I prefer the left version, I don't see why anyone would want to place a hard drive there and block so much airflow anyway.
 
I still prefer the right side one because of the added flexibility. Don't quote me on this but I seriously doubt the improved airflow of having fan ducts instead will significantly improve operating temps anyway. Also doubt there is any much of PSU cables blocking the fan with the holes on the right model
 
1) Seriously, how many people are going to have external components? Anyhow, Lian Li rubber pass look nicely placed, additionally I'd keep the grill (just a small section right between the two holes).

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2) I prefer the right one. At 9.99L this case better be flexible enough to easily accommodate HDDs and stuff. Hopefully the airflow isn't going to be that much different when you test both versions.

3) I really hope you're going to reconsider supporting mounting holes for a 3.5" HDD. Pretty sure some of us will appreciate the added flexibility :)
 
dondan said:
QuantumBraced: We are talking about saving 50-70€ this will be $60-$84 ;)
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Okay, I understand. I suppose if most people use watercooling in the case, there won't be an effect on temperatures. I just don't like how it looks, I much prefer the dual chamber design vs. an upside down graphics card eclipsing the motherboard. But $80 is significant savings, and it's a look which will appeal to some. So I understand now why you chose it.

I vote for the rightside version. Better rigidity, more flexibility for mounting drives, more mod-friendly, and it looks better.
 
AlMiDaX:
1.) For German enthusiast customer’s support for external water cooling is very important. I know it is less important for US market. For me a small grill looks wired.
2.) I also prefere the right one because of the same reasons QuantumBraced mentioned.
3.) I will make a poll for it.


QuantumBraced:
Do you love the dual chamber design because you have a free view on both sides? In the end the case is closed and you see no parts. If I made a window you could have a view on the most beautiful part of the hardware, the GPU.
 
dondan said:
QuantumBraced:
Do you love the dual chamber design because you have a free view on both sides? In the end the case is closed and you see no parts. If I made a window you could have a view on the most beautiful part of the hardware, the GPU.
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Yes, you have a free view of both sides, and also accessibility is better. In the C4-SFX, you'd have to remove the graphics card to access the motherboard. It also gives the case more personality, it's just cool to have a GPU view and a motherboard view, gives the case a nice duality. ;) (I got philosophical there). But this layout is fine too, and probably worth saving $80. Have you considered inverting the layout, so the graphics card is right-side-up?
 
Definitely the left version with the open part. More airflow means lower noise and better cooling. Could do a crossbar between the two fans for rigidity I guess. If the plate is necessary, maybe just do fan cutouts instead of the grill slots.

Also a BIG NO for the Lian Li grommets. I have them on my V700, and they look and feel like crap. Besides, as this is essentially an enthusiast case, maybe just let external watercooling be for modders? This case looks really clean and high end. Big plastic grommets on the back ruin it (and yes they are made of plastic unless Lian Li changed them).
 
Why the air cooling principle of the C4-SFX will be better as the principle of the A4-SFX:




The first thought of many users that take a first look on the layout of the C4-SFX is:

“The CPU cooler will be choke behind the GPU!”


The case is designed around the idea of using two 120mm fans in the bottom area. This means any use-case without case fans in the bottom is not supported. The case fans will generate a continuous airflow between GPU and motherboard. Because of the small size of the C4-SFX the heat exchange will be very fast also on low fan speed. The main advantage of this concept is the fact, that there will be not left hot air inside the case. This is a huge advantage against the A4-SFX. A continuous airflow will reduce M.2 SSD, motherboard components and GPU backside temperature.


For extreme hardware constellations like Hex/Octacore CPU’s and GPU’s like the 1080 Ti the exhaust temperature of these components are very high. For the A4-SFX these components will increase the ambient temperature inside the case, so motherboard components and SSDs become very hot. Inside the C4-SFX the heat will be move out very quick.


Some of you may think:

“The CPU cooler will get a lot of hot air from the backside of the GPU”


The continuous airflow of fresh air inside the case will feed the fan of the PSU and also the fan of the CPU heatsink. A part of this air will also travel the backside of the GPU and will be heated up by it. With airflow the increase will be very low, because the air will pass the GPU backside very quick so there is no chance to warming it up to a level that will be negative for the CPU heatsink. Also hot air that will be generated by the CPU will not be recycled by the CPU fan because the bottom fan sucks it away.


A second interesting option for customers that are planning to use big heatsink’s like the Cryorig C1 or Thermalright AXP200 is the SEMI-PASSIV cooling mode. If you mount the heatsink without the included fan and rotate it in this way that fresh air from the topside can easily pass through the heatsink it will work. Connect the bottom case fans with a Y-cable to the CPU fan port of your motherboard so it will act like CPU fans. Now they will spin faster if the CPU temperature will be higher and sucking more air through the heatsink. This will allow much bigger heatsinks and will be in interesting alternative to water cooling setups.


The cooling concept is very similar to a rack mounted server with the advantage of using bigger case fans for lower noise.


I hope this drawing made it clear:


coolingueunk.jpg





Summary:
  • no left hot air inside the case
  • no recycled hot air for the CPU heatsink
  • CPU heatsink will be inside a cooling tunnel so a semi-passive mode is possible
  • much better temperature for motherboard components, backside of the GPU and M.2 SSD




Feel free to ask questions if something is not clear.
 
Dondan I admire your work but I really think you need some CFD simulations. Also for your HSLP project.
If I learned anything working with aerodynamics it is that they are not always easy to predict. CFD is the only way to somewhat reliably predict flow patterns.

In principle the idea of keeping the air moving fast through the case might sound good but fast moving flow and many abrupt flow restrictions means there will probably be lots of turbulence, which will increase the flow resistance and noise. This is especially true if you use an active CPU cooler (which most users probably will) as it creates a flow perpendicular to the vertical flow which can't really go anywhere as it is blocked on both side. There is a reason a lot of modern cases go for compartmentalizing components in separate flow zones much more than they used to in the old days. In passive mode the concept makes a lot more sense as you use the GPU to create that separate flow zone and don't interrupt the flow. In both modes I see absolute no reason to have the flow going downwards instead of its natural convective direction (yes I know the case supports both but why would you even consider the "wrong" direction).

What this comes down to IMHO is a A4 plus some fans to increase vertical flow (which would be great) and a bunch of unnecessary flow restrictions. Again for passive mode or water cooling this makes sense but for active cooling I would much prefer an A4 version with top and bottom fans.

Quite frankly I really don't care much about the backside of my motherboard and GPU getting hot and this could anyway be dealt with by putting a thick gap pad between the back of those PCBs and the aluminium carrier (which would replace the isolation foil).
 
The CFD module for my Solidworks licence is very very expansive. So the only way to test is will be on a real prototype :)
 
dondan Thanks for that summary. I think the bottom fans would also work as intakes, especially if one is trying to control dust. Speaking of which, that's another reason I support the right-side bottom grille option -- you can mount the fans on the inside as intakes and put dust filters on the bottom.

I think your windtunnel idea would only work if the case didn't have any side vents, but you'll be leaking a lot of pressure, so may not be quite enough to dissipate heat from the heatsink. It would still work, but not as well as having a fan on the heatsink.

By the way, how did you add vents to the riser...? Doesn't that interfere with wiring?
 
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Instead of guarding the fan maybe you could have a plate that sits below the power supply to help keep the cables bent at a nice tight angle. Other than that I'd just stick with some standard wire fan guards like that supplied with the ncase.

Further to my thought above, maybe the plate to keep the PSU wires bent could have mounting positions for 2.5" drives. Like the A4 ones but they would hang upside down.
 
Would the rubber pass holes be large enough to fit a SATA power cable through? I've got a Bluray drive I sometimes plug in, so that'd be super useful. Granted I really should just buy a USB drive... Haha.

In terms of middle plate preference - right if it doesn't affect airflow in your tests. Otherwise I'd go with left.
 
dondan said:
the air cooling principle
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Hey, Dondan!

I think your semipassive scheme isn't feasible because

A) air always chooses path with lowest resistance. That means air will flow through the open spaces which are plenty in there, not through the heatsink.

B) You can force air to move through the heatsink by some kind of ducts. You''ll have to cover both vertical sides of the heatsink, like they did it in the blower-type graphic cards. Even then the air will get saturated at the very beginning of the heatsink (because they are much thicker in vertical dimension). You can prevent the saturation with a really fast airflow but that would be really loud.
 
Is that any plans to ventilate the motherboard side of the case, and allow the PSU to draw air from the outside? The first prototype of the Ncase M1 had no ventilation on the motherboard side, and that side became uncomfortably hot, so Necere added ventilation there in the next version.
 
dondan said:
The CFD module for my Solidworks licence is very very expansive. So the only way to test is will be on a real prototype :)
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Maybe look into OpenFOAM, it doesn't have a GUI which makes it clunky to use but you could use https://engys.com/products/helyx-os (you would Linux if you want the free version) it's a lot of work but it's free and you can do a lot more experiments without any additional cost or waiting time.
 
dondan
is it possible to fit 2X120mm AIO in the C4? one for the GPU and one for the CPU ?
it will be a good advantage point for a case in that size
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Yes I think it will fit with the 2,5 Slot version.

I will show you a 240mm AIO solution in the next days that will allow you to easy upgrade it with copper water GPUs heatsinks from EK, Koolance, Alphacool s.o. Futhermore I will also show you how you can easy refill it.
 
My money is ready.
Kickstarter when? =)

Personally i like it more with fans on top.
Heat goes up and on the top there is more space for the air.

Too bad it don't have a white color, so i'll take silver one.

For the cooling part i think i'll go with Alphacool Eisbaer 240 CPU + Alphacool Eiswolf GPX Pro.
 
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Today I reviewed the result of the second survey.


results_blackums78.jpg



94,4% of all voters like the design of the C4-SFX. So this makes me happy because it looks like I found a new outer design that is different to the old one that match your taste.


Relating the front logo question there is no real winner. So this is something I have to decide by myself. I think there are people that can’t life with the front logo because they like it clean. On the other hand people that like the logo will also buy the case without it. So I think I will do it like with the A4-SFX and make the C4-SFX without front logo.


For the back side 68,5% like to have venting holes. What I forget to say, these holes have no real function and will not have a real impact on cooling performance. Maybe this question is now biased because it is based on wrong hopes. In my opinion it would be the best to make the backside clean. External water cooling lovers can easily mod the case and everyone else will have a clean back side that looks more aesthetic then pre drilled tube holes. But the last word isn’t spoken I have to think about going the democratic or the dictatorial way.


Now we come to the last question. This one was the most important for me. For around 55% of the participant 2 Slot is enough and 45% like to have 2.5 Slot card support to fit cards like the Asus GTX 1080Ti Strix.


I thought the last days about it and found a solution that match everyone tastes. The C4-SFX will be the first sub 10L case that will fit both 2 and 2.5 Slot cards.

In the first step I made the cutout and mounting bend 10mm longer. I removed the slot bar so the I/O ports of the card will be not covered if you shift it. In the second step I created a cover that will be useable in two directions. Direction one will support 2 Slot cards if you rotate the cover and screw it again to the case it will support 2.5 slot cards. I made two different types of covers. One cover with center bar and the other without it. What version do you prefer?


cover_2.5slot6nstw.jpg


cover_2slotlyswe.jpg



Supporting both card types require also changes on the riser car. So I have two ideas for it. The first idea is including two risers one for 2.5 slot cards and the other for 2 slot cards. The second idea is adding a second PCIe port to the current riser. Both PCIe Ports will be connected to the same lanes so you can’t use them simultaneous but both ports will have full PCIe 16x speed.


riser9psuv.jpg




What do you think?



Thank you for your support.

Daniel Hansen
 
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