DAN C4-SFX: The smallest water cooling case in the world

That 60mm air cpu cooler height restriction. :(

Maybe the community can compile a theoretical min/max configuration with 60mm coolers. Dan mentioned the C1 in passive mode but that would be 61mm and would require a lot of testing since that seems to be very unlikely to function well with a GPU practically touching it. It seems like 240 AiO for cpu and triple fan open back GPU will be the min/max.

I would just like to say that I used to run two GTX 770 and an OCed i7-4770K with only one 240 rad (can't remember how thick it was but not absurd; I could meassure it if you want) and it ran fine. The liquid temps where in the low 30s and everything stayed well bellow Tjmax.
What I want to say is that if I can run a CPU with an estimated power consumption of 100-150W and two 770s each with a power consumption of 150-200W I think you would be fine running a 1070 and an i7-7700K in one loop in this case.
 
Dondan,

Do you have the measurements for the usable area under the PSU for a reservoir/pump combo? If so we can try and see if there is anything commercially available that will fit there. So far for sure, nothing from EKWB fits. The space is really tight, especially for height

IMO..there must be decent support for either a custom loop solution (i.e a suitable space inside the case to mount a commercially available pump/res combo) or dual AIO for CPU and GPU in this case or you will lose a chunk of buyers for this case.
 
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richiegore:
This is how flipping will work:

1k_18710kpx.jpg


darrpara:
Two 120mm AIOs will not fit. A 120mm AIO is 160mm in length 2x 160 = 320mm. This is the length of the complete case.

incompleteusernam:
This will require increasing the case width. I like my current "slim" design. Every mm more will us come clother to the width of a traditional tower case. And then a default hardware layout like that from the M1 makes more sense.

SaperPL:
Then it will easily fit.

Blackreplica

Here is the complete zone under the GPU and PSU

freespace9mqky.jpg
 
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I don't understand the design. There is no reason why the motherboard should be behind the gpu. You will only add heat if an AIO is not used, which makes the case not flexible at all.
 
prava
Than read the first post ;) It saves money and makes the case affordable for a bigger market and saves production time. In every usecase you have to use 120mm fans in the bottom. So also with no AIO you will have a airflow through the case.
 
I don't understand the design. There is no reason why the motherboard should be behind the gpu. You will only add heat if an AIO is not used, which makes the case not flexible at all.
Buying a Dan "C4-H20" to not use H20 is pointless, just buy Dan A4-SFX otherwise.
 
I'm very interested about the temperatures.

If it makes big differences in which position the AIO is, up or down and if the idea of the cooling works also in Gaming with high temperatures from the GPU.
Also if they significant differences to the A4-SFX.

When you have a prototype and we can expect first test results?
 
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It's somewhat similar to the NCase M1, except shorter and the side radiator and graphics card are switched. I like it, but here's what I don't like about it:

I'm not a fan of having 100% negative pressure. You will have issues with dust. Also, bottom fans will draw air thru the entire interior of the case and the air will be warm before it gets to the radiator, especially if using a non-reference card. I'd rather flip the case and have top intake. Having an exposed radiator on top would look awesome (barring bent fins), but if you wanted to put a filter on it, that would look ugly. And if you wanted to have bottom intake + filter, I'm not sure there would be enough clearance for proper airflow. Also, 12-15mm fans are quite weak/loud, especially if someone wanted to do a custom loop with CPU+GPU. 25mm fans are much better than 15mm, it's not a linear relationship between fan thickness and CFM/static pressure. I think the case has to be made 10mm taller to accommodate proper 25mm fans.

Sorry to be so critical, but those were my initial thoughts. I guess if you don't care about dust, you can have decent airflow with the radiator in the top orientation, and you can then have 25mm fans either directly exposed on top, or under the radiator, with the radiator protruding up a bit more.

Finally, I'm not a fan of the graphics card being in front of the motherboard. I think that makes air cooling a bad option, tho I guess if you're getting this case you're not interested in air cooling, so that's not really an issue. But it looks strange and restricts access to the motherboard. Also, if you're using a 250W non-reference card, that would heat up your motherboard components substantially.
 
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the gpu will overheat the motherboard. My 1080ti fe stock heat my ssd and mb 20° highest. I need to separe the rooms with insulating material and undervolt it to get normal temps. Without insulating wall...too much heat
 
QuantumBraced & galletabah:
I heard the same words in the prototype state of the A4-SFX again and again "This will not work because of heat and s.o." and in the end it worked. So let me try a prototype and if you are right I am back on the drawing board.

Agreed, but in the A4 the CPU gets fresh air and the motherboard/PSU is in a different compartment. Here you have them in the same compartment AND you have warm air from the graphics card being used to cool the CPU radiator. So it's a very different scenario. But yes, we need testing. For a full custom loop this wouldn't matter though. I still think intake on the radiator would be better. Would it be possible to fit 2 AIOs?
 
Looks like a really interesting case.

I'm a bit confused though: If you're running a rad on the bottom, is there room for 25mm fans inside the case? Seems a shame to have such a nice case, and they have to use comparatively crappy 12mm fans to cool everything.
 
You cant put a m2 ssd in the back of the motherboard in the dan a4 with a high tdp gpu, because heat the storage. 82° without insulating material and now 61° with the material. Imagine with the gpu in front of the motherboard.
But we will see. We need a prototype
 
You cant put a m2 ssd in the back of the motherboard in the dan a4 with a high tdp gpu, because heat the storage. 82° without insulating material and now 61° with the material. Imagine with the gpu in front of the motherboard.
But we will see. We need a prototype

The issue with the dan-sfx overheating the m.2 is because there is no forced airflow in the case and thus its all based on internal convection currents. Even on low speed 2x120mm fans will do a great job of reducing component temps.
 
The issue with the dan-sfx overheating the m.2 is because there is no forced airflow in the case and thus its all based on internal convection currents. Even on low speed 2x120mm fans will do a great job of reducing component temps.
100% correct, forced convection is stronger by at least one order of magnitude than natural convection. Added to that is that natural convection requires much bigger fin gaps in the heatsinks than forced convection designs. Meaning that a densely populated PCB like a motherboard won't have a good time with natural convection only if you compare it to even a very small forced convection.
 
Dan - great to see you continuing to optimize your ideas and support the mITX community!

I had good luck with 4.3GHz air cooled CPU + dual GPU in a Shuttle, back in the day, and the power supply fan helped get heat out of the case. Power supplies can typically survive warm air intake, though obviously a thermostat cooled power supply will run quieter taking air from outside. Could be nice to have the option to mount the power supply to either help scavenge heat from the case or draw cooler air through the side panel. Though I would expect the power supply to actually prove quieter scavenging from inside, vs. facing another fan out the case side, customers love options ;)

Also great that AIO coolers have matured / standardized to the point where the height above the CPU is well known, and a case like this can find a big market.

Alongside the A4 and HSLP, this is becoming an amazing legacy!
 
I feel like some people are being a little too critical and demanding on this case, and not really getting what dondan is going for here. Essentially, the design of this case is an attempt to address biggest issue with the A4 - namely, CPU cooling. It's not a case for custom loops, or dual CPU+GPU AIOs, and making space for those as options is going to increase the size of the case, which I know he really doesn't want to do. It has a clear purpose, and it accomplishes it reasonably well.

I have my own quibbles with it, of course. The negative pressure design and consequent inability to effectively control dust is a common problem for all these sub-10L SFF cases, and one of the biggest challenges for me in my own designs. I have reservations about the airflow clearance at the bottom of the case, as it will be quite tight with a rad in place. I also don't love the idea that when set up as intended, the rad will be will be sucking in almost all of the exhaust from an axial fan GPU. But I recognize that these are just some of the compromises that come with a case this size, and overall I think it achieves what it set out to do in an elegant, logical and well-executed way.

Also: in regards to using a hard riser, this is an effective way of getting the cost down, and making the case more accessible to people. Cheap flex risers are not reliable (I just posted about this), so a hard riser is the only other alternative. Replacing potentially hundreds of faulty risers, once international shipping is factored in, will absolutely kill a small producer like DAN cases. Dondan's decision is a prudent one, and best for the long term interest of his business.
 
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Dan, With so many main stream 240mm AIOs being 30mm thick have you considered allowing for 15mm fans instead of 12mm or would this be possible by simply using taller feet?
 
Blackreplica

Here is the complete zone under the GPU and PSU

freespace9mqky.jpg

This is the smallest pump/res combo i’ve been able to find that *may* fit in the space below so far. I say may because we are limited by height and the unit is 50mm tall, the exact same as the available height.

http://www.aquatuning.co.uk/water-c...ool-dc-lt-2600-ultra-low-noise-ceramic-12v-dc

If you are prepared to use a separate res (or no res even) and pump, then there may be a few more options. But considering that there is a need to have the res mounted above the pump...this makes going with seperate units in this case even more difficult than a using a combined unit
 

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So you state that radiators of 30mm + 2x12mm fans fan fit. Why not extend by 1 mm and then you can support a 30mm radiatory + 1x25 mm fan? Seems like a small change for the added convenience of buying 2 fans instead of 4 skinny ones. Or even better, extend 2 mm so you can support what is supposedly the best AIO w/ a radiator thickness of 31, the Fractal Design Celsius S24. I understand if you don't want to extend 2 mm, but the 1 mm change seems very reasonable. I think right now the Ghost S1 has 56.5 mm of clearance with it's tophat verses your 54 mm. 54mm cuts out all 30mm radiator + 25mm fan options.
 
Dan, With so many main stream 240mm AIOs being 30mm thick have you considered allowing for 15mm fans instead of 12mm or would this be possible by simply using taller feet?

Has it been shown somewhere that using 4 thin fans as opposed to 2 thicker fans is better? Your request of 30mm radiator + 30mm of fans (2x15mm) adds 6 mm to the case height. Why not add 1 mm and then you can have a 30mm + 25mm setup? Really interested to hear how a 2x12mm setup or 2x15mm setup would compare. I wouldn't mind you suggestion of adding 6mm though. Seems tiny. I feel like if this case is gonna go for AIO coolers it should support as many as possible.
 
Extra set of taller feet would be nice, though technically you can turn the case upside down and use any thickness radiator/fans.
 
I feel like some people are being a little too critical and demanding on this case, and not really getting what dondan is going for here. Essentially, the design of this case is an attempt to address biggest issue with the A4 - namely, CPU cooling. It's not a case for custom loops, or dual CPU+GPU AIOs, and making space for those as options is going to increase the size of the case, which I know he really doesn't want to do. It has a clear purpose, and it accomplishes it reasonably well.

I have my own quibbles with it, of course. The negative pressure design and consequent inability to effectively control dust is a common problem for all these sub-10L SFF cases, and one of the biggest challenges for me in my own designs. I have reservations about the airflow clearance at the bottom of the case, as it will be quite tight with a rad in place. I also don't love the idea that when set up as intended, the rad will be will be sucking in almost all of the exhaust from an axial fan GPU. But I recognize that these are just some of the compromises that come with a case this size, and overall I think it achieves what it set out to do in an elegant, logical and well-executed way.

Also: in regards to using a hard riser, this is an effective way of getting the cost down, and making the case more accessible to people. Cheap flex risers are not reliable (I just posted about this), so a hard riser is the only other alternative. Replacing potentially hundreds of faulty risers, once international shipping is factored in, will absolutely kill a small producer like DAN cases. Dondan's decision is a prudent one, and best for the long term interest of his business.


Necere I agree that the point of the case is to create an A4-SFX with CPU water cooling. I still don't see the justification for putting the GPU in front of the motherboard. My understanding is that it's not about flexible riser yields (the 3M riser is excellent), but about keeping cost down. It's still not warranted in my opinion. It doesn't look good, it's inconvenient for access, and it will have a negative effect on thermals (tho minimized if you use a reference design). Not worth saving $30-40 off an expensive case in my opinion. The people who will buy this are not budget buyers and I think this will be a deal breaker for many.

I also don't understand the 15mm fans. Extending the case another 10mm would add 0.4L of volume, but I think that's absolutely justified to have adequate and quiet CPU cooling. Otherwise, it seems weird to make room for a 240mm rad, but give it weak/loud fans.

There's a lot I like about the case, like the ability to flip it is a unique feature that adds flexibility and a badass exposed radiator look where you *can* use 25mm fans, but you should have that option with bottom mounting too. I also like having separate front and top panels with push-pins.
 
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So you state that radiators of 30mm + 2x12mm fans fan fit. Why not extend by 1 mm and then you can support a 30mm radiatory + 1x25 mm fan? Seems like a small change for the added convenience of buying 2 fans instead of 4 skinny ones. Or even better, extend 2 mm so you can support what is supposedly the best AIO w/ a radiator thickness of 31, the Fractal Design Celsius S24. I understand if you don't want to extend 2 mm, but the 1 mm change seems very reasonable. I think right now the Ghost S1 has 56.5 mm of clearance with it's tophat verses your 54 mm. 54mm cuts out all 30mm radiator + 25mm fan options.

Has it been shown somewhere that using 4 thin fans as opposed to 2 thicker fans is better? Your request of 30mm radiator + 30mm of fans (2x15mm) adds 6 mm to the case height. Why not add 1 mm and then you can have a 30mm + 25mm setup? Really interested to hear how a 2x12mm setup or 2x15mm setup would compare. I wouldn't mind you suggestion of adding 6mm though. Seems tiny. I feel like if this case is gonna go for AIO coolers it should support as many as possible.

Pretty sure dondan is referring to two slims fans TOTAL, not two per fan slot (push/pull)...

And if he were talking about four fans total, would that not show in his renders...?

We see the radiator itself, if it was push/pull (four fans) we would see fans as well...
 
@ALL: Here is a small rendering to show you how the bottom cooling part looks like. For you information: The most often 240 radiator thickness is 27mm on the market. Only Corsair is with 30mm a bit higher. The current height for the AIO + FAN area is 42mm I am thinking of adding 5mm to support the following configurations:

*22mm radiator + up to 25mm thick fan
*27mm radiator + up to 20mm thick fan (Noctua A12x15 will fit)
*30mm radiator + up to 17mm thick fan (Noctua A12x15 will fit)

1k_191fdob3.jpg


Some of you wonder why I configured it with fan bushing to the bottom so they will work against thermal convection. The thermal convection in PC case temp range is very low so two 120mm fans can easily disable it. Furthermore fans that come close to a ground will lost performance and become noisy if they suck air from the ground. If the fan blows to the ground the distance can be very low and also the noise level is low.


Some of you mentioned that if you use higher case feets you can use bigger fans. This is wrong because it will collide with the outer panel.

1k_1935mos1.jpg


Blackreplica: Thank you for the idea with the pumb/res combo.

Brandonandon: You mean 10mm not 1mm ;)

QuantumBraced: I don’t think that the GPU over the motherboard will result in bad temps. With the bottom fans you a continuous air flow in the case. I think the temps will be better as in the A4. Furthermore why do you need fast access to the motherboard? A PC isn’t a refrigerator that need fast access.

Boil: You are right. Two 120mm fans total.
 
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Would it be possible to fit two single radiator?

My idea for this is: One for the CPU and one for the GPU. See pictures below.

Would that bring any advantages?
 

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dondan, because of the negative pressure design, it's likely some of the PSU exhaust will be recirculated back into the PSU intake. This looks like a design flaw. A possible workaround would be rotating the PSU so the fan faces towards the outside of the case and not the inside.

Edit: in other words, the PSU fan should be on this side:
1k_171bhyyd.jpg
 
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A few quick comments: Two 120mm AIOs would make the case accessible for those not doing a custom loop. Others have said that this case isn't for that type of user but I would personally have a lot of interest in it if this was possible. I would have some concerns about bottom mounting two AIOs as I know some AIOs don't perform very well with the rad below the pump.

Lastly, from my experience with the NCase: I would suggest higher feet even if they are optional/included in the box. Putting the case higher off the ground gave me a few degrees (3-5) on my NCase with an accelero.
 
Looks great :)

But i dont like the "stock" orientation of the case. I would recommend to turn the case 180 degrees as its possible and advertised. The problems i see with the "stock" orientation are, that the airflow resistance is higher because of the little gap between botton and the case. Since the slim fans cant create much pressure anyway it isnt a small deal. Turning the case around would elimante that unnecessary restriction.
 
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Some of you mentioned that if you use higher case feets you can use bigger fans. This is wrong because it will collide with the outer panel.
Maybe you can put the fold/screws of the side panels at the top of the case rather than at the bottom where the radiator is.

Someone using RGB fans would probably want the bling at the top and turn the case upside down anyway.
 
Ah ok, I understand now. I had thought you meant push/pull fans. I still feel like at least 55mm if clearance would be a good idea so you could support 30mm radiators + 25mm fans. Many good suggestions on here imo. Thanks for your willingness to take feedback! I know it took a lot of work for the concept to get to this point.
 
Case looks great! Wish you would make a limited color (something that isn't black or silver)

Would really to see a rendering of it next to the DAN A4 case and perhaps even the Ncase. Using a A4 right now, so being able to see the case right beside me and a rendering of the size differences would be pretty helpful.
 
So the rad is totally exposed on the bottom? I'm not sure that's the best idea, because of how fragile radiator fins tend to be. It's very easy to bend them if you're not careful. Ideally I'd want a grille or mesh to give it some protection.


On the subject of thicker fan support, I can see why dondan might not want to do that. At 236mm currently, going from the current 42mm total fan+rad thickness to 55mm (30mm rad + 25mm fans) would add 13mm, putting it at 249mm tall, or essentially the same height as the M1 (250mm). At that point, it's only really narrower than the M1; every other dimension would be about the same, giving it less to differentiate itself relative to the M1.
 
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I still like the rad up top. Help that naturally rising heat exhaust and prevaint any components from reusing hot air that is being pumped out from the bottom of the case.
 
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