DAN A4-SFX: The smallest gaming case in the world

Mackan said:
Some things to look into if possible,

1) Temperature behind motherboard if adding a M.2 SSD there. General motherboard/case temperature?
2) Dust filtering. Material is aluminium, so no magnet dust filters will work. Adhesive Demciflex needed it seems.
3) Panel thickness. If panels are too thin, they will inevitably bend, like on Ncase M1.
4) Panel seating. Current plastic clips can break, or wear with the consequence that they don't hold in the panel perfectly.
5) Stiff USB 3.0 cable. These are often too long, and often too stiff. Not fun.
6) Perforation pattern on the side panels. Some patterns cause more noise than others. Not sure if it matters here or not.

Some of the above things have annoyed me with the Ncase M1 that I own. I don't know if there are better solutions available. Just want to raise the concern again.

Otherwise, great job, and hope to buy this case. :)
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Regular msata or m.2 drives which do not get very warm would most likely work. On the other hand, the Samsung XP941 or SM951 probably would not work as they get super toasty without proper airflow.
 
Great work and I love the results. Looking forward to buying this case.

I might go ahead and buy the Cooltek LP53, and put a 92x92x20mm fan on it, but i'm thinking of waiting it out for the ID-Cooling IS-VC45 revision.
 
dondan said:
For the Phanteks and Xigmateks I install the fans under the heatsink pulling air through it. I test the Xigmatek with the fan fliped (pushing through the heatsink) and the temps was 10°C higer, because the fan use the hot air from the inside.

The scythe fan is very bad in pulling air. I test the Phanteks also with the default cooler and the result was arround 6°C worse as the LO53.
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Thanks for the clarification! I'm still perplexed by the weak performance of the Phanteks even after discounting the usage of the slim Scythe fan, but one thing I wanted to say earlier that I forgot to say: your test proves how efficiently the A4-SFX lets the hot air out, resolving the problem of re-feeding hot air from one heat source to another that occur in the traditional GPU-card-inserted-perpendicular-to-mainboard setup. I was expecting the efficiency from the first time I encountered this thread by just looking at the internal layout and the vent hole location, but it's really nice to know that it's confirmed by actual tests. :) A splendid work.
 
Damn, this looks like my dream case! I've found this thread a week ago after searching for the smallest SFF case and was surprised to find such a nice case.

Dondan, Is there a way for us to subscribe to a notification mail when the case goes to Indigogo, Kickstarter, StartNext? Because I definately don't want to miss the boat. (And you might even get rid of the "when will it be released" posts ;))
 
Wezelkrozum said:
Dondan, Is there a way for us to subscribe to a notification mail when the case goes to Indigogo, Kickstarter, StartNext? Because I definately don't want to miss the boat. (And you might even get rid of the "when will it be released" posts ;))
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Yes, the subscription will be possible on my new webside that is actually under construction.
 
Maybe someone of you think about what will be the next steps for this project, here are the answers:

1. making professional product pictures (I have a meeting with my photographer next week)
2. finalize my webpage with a possibility for subscription
3. checking all DIN norms that need to be strictly adhered to selling this case in the EU.
4. Finding a partner for selling the case in the EU, otherwise I am only able to sell the case outside of the EU and Germany. The reasons for this is the hard laws for electronically waste in the EU. For Germany I can register the company by myself, but it would be too expansive for myself for the other countries. If I can get a big web-shop partner that is already registered in these countries like Caseking, the shop is responsible for it. Furthermore the partner can help to reach the 300 piece mark.
5. founding DAN Cases
6. Register DAN Cases by the EAR (Electronic Waste Office for Germany)
7. Starting the crowdfunding campaign for people outside of the EU.

So much to do, but all these steps are necessary to fullfil all laws and make this project successful.Someone of you will say, that NCASE didn't do all these steps, but they are located in the US.
 
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Nice Dondan!

A long road of ahead you but it'll be worth it in the end!

I can't wait to move from my M1 to my A4! :D
 
dondan said:
Maybe someone of you think about what will be the next steps for this project, here are the answers:

1. making professional product pictures (I have a meeting with my photographer next week)
2. finalize my webpage with a possibility for subscription
3. checking all DIN norms that need to be strictly adhered to selling this case in the EU.
4. Finding a partner for selling the case in the EU, otherwise I am only able to sell the case outside of the EU and Germany. The reasons for this is the hard laws for electronically waste in the EU. For Germany I can register the company by myself, but it would be too expansive for myself for the other countries. If I can get a big web-shop partner that is already registered in these countries like Caseking, the shop is responsible for it. Furthermore the partner can help to reach the 300 piece mark.
5. founding DAN Cases
6. Register DAN Cases by the EAR (Electronic Waste Office for Germany)
7. Starting the crowdfunding campaign for people outside of the EU.

So much to do, but all these steps are necessary to fullfil all laws and make this project successful.Someone of you will say, that NCASE didn't do all these steps, but they are located in the US.
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Are you sure a PC Case will you need to attend to those "Electronic Waste rules"?

Today you don't have plans for selling the Case in EU, you will only try that after you accomplish selling it for non-EU country's, right?

Being realistic, maybe it will be possible to have cases in UE in the second semester of 2016?

Do you have any idea how many, or what percentage, of your potential buyers are in the EU? I think you should find that out before o decide what market you prefer to invest your money and time.

Don't read this like I'm angry or something (when I read it, seems like that :D), I'm just asking, to understand the timings and the reasons of your choice...
 
Just get the case out and sell the first batch as samples and only worry about the rest if the number of orders justify mass production. I believe you are overthinking it, as no one will come after you for shipping x hundred aluminium cases to testers in Europe.
 
Can any of us US buyers line your pockets with cash first, perhaps? Then you can tackle the vigorously regulated EU market....;)
 
dondan said:
3. checking all DIN norms that need to be strictly adhered to selling this case in the EU.
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But... aren't DIN norms only for Germany?

Also, I don't see why any eletronic waste rules would apply to your case? It's a case, not electronics. Because of the pci extender? Then sell the case without it in the EU. Because of the usb port circuitry?
 
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Yes the DIN norms are only for germany but for electronical stuff they based on EU norms.

My case have a USB Cable, Riser and Powerswitchcable + pcb. So the electronical waste rules will apply to me.
 
Why not sell just the case and give us a shopping list to finish the case on our own? That way you will only have to worry about the price for the case and shipping. Make like a pc game's minimum and recommended list for the power, usb, and riser cable. Would that ease the process on your side?
 
Wouldn't that also help you out if you decide to do a second run? You should have some funds left over from the crowdfunding to go through with the process of registering for the upcoming batches to be able to include all of the items in bulk. Because the riser cable is expensive and would realistically be better to purchase in bulk.
 
dondan said:
Yes the DIN norms are only for germany but for electronical stuff they based on EU norms.

My case have a USB Cable, Riser and Powerswitchcable + pcb. So the electronical waste rules will apply to me.
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Ok. Well, I'm all for strict environmental rules so I really can't complain, but I hope you'll find a solution soon!
 
Ca11idus said:
Why not sell just the case and give us a shopping list to finish the case on our own? That way you will only have to worry about the price for the case and shipping. Make like a pc game's minimum and recommended list for the power, usb, and riser cable. Would that ease the process on your side?
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Yes this would be possible, but I would like to give you a complete perfect finished product. Furthermore I think it could be hard to get a special LianLi powerswitch and USB Connector by your own ;). Also it is against the philosophy of DAN Cases to sell only a construction kit and not the full case.

It is not possible to split the crowdfunding campaign in two parts (a early one for outside EU), because I need 300 orders.
 
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Just ideas. Are only 300 going to be made? Will Lian li keep this design and release it later? I was thinking a second batch after the initial 300.
 
MOQ is 300. Why should LianLi keep my design and release it by themself? It is my design and I don't think they will copy it.
 
Curious is all just in case for some unforseen event happens that I can't get a case. Aso Lian Li just announced the PC-Q17WX which is a slightly modified case which, just like wjat you are doing, was a crowdfunded case.
 
Ca11idus said:
Curious is all just in case for some unforseen event happens that I can't get a case. Aso Lian Li just announced the PC-Q17WX which is a slightly modified case which, just like wjat you are doing, was a crowdfunded case.
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The PC-Q17WX was not designed by LianLi, keep that in mind. They just were the first contractor to actually finish a prototype of the case and be ready for manufacturing, at least that's how the story goes.

I think LianLi is very professional in that regard. They do mention on their website that they take pretty much any request regarding custom cases, even if it's just you wanting a window on your case or additional venting holes. And they do 100% custom stuff.

I'm not sure, maybe w360 knows about this, but I think the R&D department will not have access to plans that LianLi contracts to manufacture.
 
wreckem said:
Regular msata or m.2 drives which do not get very warm would most likely work. On the other hand, the Samsung XP941 or SM951 probably would not work as they get super toasty without proper airflow.
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This could actually be beneficial (high temperatures) as it seems that high operating temperature increases the data retention time while drive is off (if that actually happens to anyone in here).
 
Ca11idus said:
Why not sell just the case and give us a shopping list to finish the case on our own? That way you will only have to worry about the price for the case and shipping. Make like a pc game's minimum and recommended list for the power, usb, and riser cable. Would that ease the process on your side?
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dondan said:
Yes this would be possible, but I would like to give you a complete perfect finished product. Furthermore I think it could be hard to get a special LianLi powerswitch and USB Connector by your own ;). Also it is against the philosophy of DAN Cases to sell only a construction kit and not the full case.

It is not possible to split the crowdfunding campaign in two parts (a early one for outside EU), because I need 300 orders.
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So, you intend to launch a crowdfunding campaign and you have no idea if the EU participants will get the case? For what I've seen, you don't know if you will get through all those EU demands... I think you should review your philosophy, and aim to the business. The quality and the value of the case is in the case itself, not in the power button, riser, power or usb cable.

I think you should see if it is possible to sell the A4 cable/button kit in some worldwide seller (all this components separately should attend to international demands), and manage the case process separately, because that's the new product, and the only one that is really new and were the real value of this amazing project is!

I'm not crowdfund a project were I don't have any kind of notion of price or date... Can you give the EU buyers that information in the beginning of the Crowdfunding campaign?

Just my two cents.
 
Just leave him time. I think this whole norm and law stuff is very stressy. Furthermore, Dan said he will only start the Crowdfunding as soon as everything is done. So you dont have to crowdfund something you dont know whether you'll get it...
 
I think we are all getting a bit inpatient with the progress, as we see pictures of the prototype dated 25.04.2015 that is pretty much done (aside from a slightly bigger power button, according to Dan).

All the regulation stuff will be worked out, but that should not slow getting the case to market. Do like all the other case manufacturers, slap a sticker on the inside of the case for the in the EU market, if that is even necessary. No need to slow production on that account.

The case looks amazing and it's really a compliment to Dan we all want the case now!
 
I'm not intimately familiar with the WEEE directives, but from what I understand - in the UK at least - if you're not shipping over 5 tons per annum of WEEE waste - in this case that would be the cables and PCBs, NOT the case as a whole - you are exempt for some or all of the WEEE requirements for producers. Even if not exempt of the return and disposal requirements, it seems acceptable to provide instructions for removal of the WEEE-applicable waste (i.e. instructions on how to remove the cables and PCBs from the case) rather than having to ship the whole case. There is also some language to the effect that offering free disposal is only required in the event of selling a replacement to a purchaser of existing equipment (i.e.. you would only need to dispose of a Dandan A4 if someone subsequently purchased a Dondan 'A5' and wanted to throw away the A4), but that may just be the summary page being vague rather than an actual component of policy.
German implementation of WEEE may differ in specifics, but the UK implementation applies at least to products distributed in the UK, not just manufactured (WEEE responsibility falling on the UK distributor). Seems a bit silly if the rules were to differ wildly between countries though, that would defeat the point of it being EU-wide legislation.
 
Barbarian_PT said:
So, you intend to launch a crowdfunding campaign and you have no idea if the EU participants will get the case?
...

I'm not crowdfund a project were I don't have any kind of notion of price or date... Can you give the EU buyers that information in the beginning of the Crowdfunding campaign?

Just my two cents.
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No as I said, the case will be available over crowdfunfing if everything is done and checked, for all countries at the same time. Than you can buy it and you will get it some weeks later after production and shipment. But you have to wait until all steps are done.
 
DrRetina said:
I think we are all getting a bit inpatient with the progress, as we see pictures of the prototype dated 25.04.2015 that is pretty much done (aside from a slightly bigger power button, according to Dan).
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If that's the case, if I were dondan I would consider not posting progress pics so I didn't have to deal with this every time...

But as someone who is interested in this whole process, I'd prefer it didn't come to that. I'm sure no one wants this case out more than dondan does; nagging him to go faster won't help.
 
dondan said:
No as I said, the case will be available over crowdfunfing if everything is done and checked, for all countries at the same time. Than you can buy it and you will get it some weeks later after production and shipment. But you have to wait until all steps are done.
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Ok, your last point made me think you had different plans:
dondan said:
(...)
7. Starting the crowdfunding campaign for people outside of the EU.
(...)
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dondan said:
(...)
It is not possible to split the crowdfunding campaign in two parts (a early one for outside EU), because I need 300 orders.
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So it will be a general crowdfunding campaign for everyone, with delivery to everyone at the same time. Thanks for the patience in answering all this!

@pointfiveo : Backing off :D
 
I'm not talking about them stealing the idea but, if Dondan is only planning on having 300 produced where does that leave the 301+ people that weren't able to get one? All I'm saying is that maybe after the initial run Li might be able to produce more at the companies expense and not a user. This is all if only 300 cases are going to be made ever.

Going back to the m1. It had its hype and was successfully funded and once all cases were gone more and more people started to gain interest in the case.

I'm not really worried about not getting one because I religiously comb over this thread multiple times a day for any and all updates. Well a little worried, but never the less, this looks like it's going to be a limited edition case and hopefully we won't have too many Dan A4 scalpers.
 
There will be more than 300 cases ;). But my minimum order quantity by Lian Li is 300. And also if you miss the first campaign you can buy it over my shop after that ;).
 
I would say everyone needs to stop being an armchair critic. Dondan has been showing nothing but progress and it seems like he is getting his ducks in a row before launching a crowd funding campaign. Just because little Sally or Timmy want to build their PC now and are waiting on this case doesn't mean he needs to rush the process.
 
Wow, great job so far!

Have you considered using a USB Type-C connector on the front panel? Combined USB 3.1 / Thunderbolt 3 motherboards will start coming out in just a few months.
 
Dan, until you not sell it retail, who cares in whole EU what u send? I mean, when u sell something custom made at ebay, no one cares of certificates. Selling 300 cases and sending it by yourself, you must pay taxes, being a responsible person, and that's pretty all of it. Maybe it would be easier to talk with founders of successful similar projects and ask how they handle similar issues and is there issues at all?
 
idsanity said:
Wow, great job so far!

Have you considered using a USB Type-C connector on the front panel? Combined USB 3.1 / Thunderbolt 3 motherboards will start coming out in just a few months.
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It's a lot less compatible though, I mean even newer motherboards with USB 3.1 have it in the back not as internal pins that can be connected to the front panel AFAIK.
Although it is slightly smaller than type A and would definitely look better.
 
OverZerg said:
Dan, until you not sell it retail, who cares in whole EU what u send? I mean, when u sell something custom made at ebay, no one cares of certificates. Selling 300 cases and sending it by yourself, you must pay taxes, being a responsible person, and that's pretty all of it. Maybe it would be easier to talk with founders of successful similar projects and ask how they handle similar issues and is there issues at all?
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But I will sell it as retail ;) Selling a count of 300 or more is not any longer a private thing. You need to found a company and you have to pay sales tax and s.o. Furthermore I want to develope more ITX cases under the label of DAN.
 
dondan said:
But I will sell it as retail ;) Selling a count of 300 or more is not any longer a private thing. You need to found a company and you have to pay sales tax and s.o. Furthermore I want to develope more ITX cases under the label of DAN.
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As I understand, you could do all of these w/o going to retail, so you can start crowdfunding company at any time and send cases. When you ready to go retail you could go retail. I mean that this processes not tied to each other.
 
I've wanted this style and layout of case since before this thread started, but I have neither the means nor the time to pull it off. I am as ready for this as any of you, if not more so. Thermal performance is a sassy, naughty tart of a tease and I can't wait to put my chips in it.

But I will.

Now is not the time to beg for an expeditious release. Now is the time for Dan to get all his legal ducks in a row. That way, when you place an order, no matter what region you're in, the product is delivered to you instead of sitting in customs slapping Dan with ridiculous fines. Since day one, this has been about high quality. Dan is doing it right. Let's all shut up, and nicely wait for him to take our money...
 
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