DAN A4-SFX: The smallest gaming case in the world

prava said:
What makes it worse is that, somehow, you actually claim that blowers are worse. I have no idea how could you ever get to that conclusion. You couldn't reach it testing, because testing will yield completely different results.. so, how?
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people are saying what they're saying because dan himself tested the different video card designs and found that the third party coolers perform better in A4-SFX. so yes these conclusions are from testing!

as the previous posters note, third party cooler designs work so well because they input air directly from the outside. NO OTHER CASE DOES THIS. in the old days we needed to build a duct.

I myself used to have the perception that a blower design would work better. I was wrong. the heat-exhaust benefit from using 1 blower fan outputting directly is not as large as the cool-input benefit from using 3 bigger fans. more fans win in A4-SFX.
 
prava:

If you are standing far away from a campfire what happen? You will be cold. What happen if you move now next to the campfire? You will be warm. But in both situations the campfire has the same temperature and the airflow is the same.

So for a tiny case it is normal that the outside is warm because of the distance to the components. Keep in mind that the A4-SFX is made out of aluminum that have a better thermal absorption as for example plastic, so the outer surface will be faster warm.



prava said:
Jeeez mother of god. You seem to imply that air magically gets out of the case. Without fans being part of it.?
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Yes you are right, but I call it physic and not magic. It is called Stack effect. >> Stack effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are right a fan is more efficient as the stack effect, but because of the small size of the A4-SFX static pressure and the stack effect is enough.



prava said:
Why would you be disappointed with blower-style gpu? In a case without fans it is the best possible solution.
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You are right a radial/blower style GPU helps to reduce the temperature of the inside, because you move the air directly out so that the warm air can't get in contact with other components. For a open air style card you move the warm air from the GPU inside the case. While these air moving up with the principle of the stack effect it has more time having contact with other surfaces. But of the point of GPU temperature open air style cards are better because they have a bigger heat sink and more fans.


PS: I thought reference = Radial Style and custom = Blower Style. But I think I found my mistake. They call the reference blower style because the Gefore FX 5800 Ultra looks like a blower.
 
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Don't worry about Prava. He's a troll. Seen him on the other boards derailing with his statements. Ignore him completely is the key.
 
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A great video by Linus! Just to play devil's advocate, I had a few concerns:

Again, a pretty odd motherboard choice for a show-off build. Yes, you gain quad-channel memory (largely irrelevant), but you lose audio, USB 3.1, M.2, Wi-Fi, and only have 2 USB 3.0 ports. I'm not sure a 1TB M.2 wouldn't offer a more tangible performance benefit over quad-channel RAM, tho both would be negligible effects. I hope all the server stuff, SODIMMs, custom cooler, etc. won't confuse some newbie builders and give them the wrong impression of the case.

His solution to the audio issue i.e. using a monitor's built-in audio via the graphics card's HDMI connection/using a USB headset, is not very good, considering this is supposed to be an ultra-amazing performance PC. Most monitors don't have audio, those that do have poor DACs, inferior to the onboard audio of the ASRock consumer X99 ITX board, and inferior to an external dedicated quality DAC (which any respectable audiophile should have). The same goes for headsets with built-in DACs. He should have used an external DAC in one of the USB 3.0 ports, and a USB hub in the other for peripherals.

The SSD was also an odd choice. I'm not sure Linus realizes there is an additional SSD spot behind the front panel. Samsung now makes 4TB SSDs. He could have put 2 of those in RAID for insane performance and capacity. Or even three if he'd chosen an SFX PSU. I'm really not sure why he went SFX-L. Yes, it's technically the highest wattage you can fit in the case, but extra wattage does not give you extra performance. 700W is a complete waste for a single GPU system. And despite having a smaller fan, I'm not sure the Corsair SF450/S600 wouldn't be quieter, as SilverStone stuff is is not really the best quality (I love SilverStone, but it's true).

Also, the A4-SFX is smaller than any shoebox I've seen. ;)

But this is all clearly nitpicking, I just like thinking about this stuff. Overall, it was a great video, although I think it could have been longer, like last year's, and we could have given more of a review of the system. I can't wait for the case review, and I also hope he does another video with that EVGA 1080 build. You know it's Linus in that shot because of the sandals and socks. :D
 
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Linus video was not bad, but just lacked depth to me as others have mentioned it being more of an overview build. I think tek syndicate or hardware canucks may have been better for in-depth reviews. Linus does have the fanbase and viewership advantage, though I worry his viewership will still question the validity of such a small case without case fans.
 
CknSalad said:
Linus video was not bad, but just lacked depth to me as others have mentioned it being more of an overview build. I think tek syndicate or hardware canucks may have been better for in-depth reviews. Linus does have the fanbase and viewership advantage, though I worry his viewership will still question the validity of such a small case without case fans.
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There will be a separate video review of the Dan Case in the future.
 
prava said:
Jeeez mother of god. You seem to imply that air magically gets out of the case. Without fans being part of it. Also, you imply that air gets heated up "a fraction of a degree" which couldn't be further from the truth. Heck, have you tested your enclosure at all with open-air coolers? Cases with no fans are forced to recycle hot air all the time because, well, there is nothing making that air get in or out of the case. You only have to test your own case to see what happens when you use non-blower cards inside cases that have no forced airflow inside. Just go and find a 290X non-blower and play for several hours straight. Monitor the temperatures of every single component of your case, and the case itself, then panic.

I'm worried that a case designer and seller is making such statements. Have you done any thorough testing whatsoever? Because I'm starting to think that you haven't. Or else you wouldn't be making such claims.



OK.

Put a 250W card, non-blower inside. Play for a few hours while monitoring the temperature of the your components and case itself (ie put a probe on the case itself). Enjoy. So many of you have yet to try high-powered gpu cards in small enclosures. It seems you will find out about the truth the hard way.

What makes it worse is that, somehow, you actually claim that blowers are worse. I have no idea how could you ever get to that conclusion. You couldn't reach it testing, because testing will yield completely different results.. so, how?
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I suggest you read the thread and read up on the basic laws of physics before making a fool of yourself.
 
I thought we had that discussion a while back in this thread, prava. I told you that in the case of Dan A4, the GPU fans and the CPU fan act as both case fans and radiator fans due to the proximity to the vents of the case. You claimed that air is being recycled due to a few mm of gap between the fans and the vents of the case. The discussion stopped there. I'd like to say that the few mm difference is inconsequential according to my experience with ducting in the Ncase M1.
 
QuantumBraced said:
A great video by Linus! Just to play devil's advocate, I had a few concerns:

But this is all clearly nitpicking, I just like thinking about this stuff. Overall, it was a great video, although I think it could have been longer, like last year's, and we could have given more of a review of the system. I can't wait for the case review, and I also hope he does another video with that EVGA 1080 build. You know it's Linus in that shot because of the sandals and socks. :D
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There will be a second video as mentioned before. This video was just to show how much power you are capable to fit on such a small form factor, thanks to new technologies and Dan's case. That should be obvious since the processor alone costs around $4.000 and the RAM around $800, something that 99% of people would never spend to build a mini PC. About the SSD it could be for different reasons, he explained that the RAM and motherboards were supplied and he didn't buy them, perhaps he just doesn't have 2 Samsung SSD at the moment of the video, since each of them costs $1.500. Not saying he can't afford them, just saying that reasons can be many.

Overall the video was nice, I felt that Linus was hyped about the product, that made me feel good about buying Dan's case, if it can satisfy a guy who works with different premium PC products and still get hyped about it, it's a good sign. Something that was really important, and I think it wasn't mentioned, was noise levels on that configuration, as for the rest, it was a solid video considering there will be a second one with the review.

prava I think discussing is not a bad thing, despite other rude comments around. But some people won't be open minded to do so. You are doing good by questioning and reasoning. On the mean time the best to do is to keep Dondan words and his own experience, and once we receive the case, we can experiment and test all we want and share experiences, just ignore some of the comments on this thread.
 
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prava said:
Jeeez mother of god. You seem to imply that air magically gets out of the case. Without fans being part of it.
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Fans are part of it: the fans on the graphics card, the CPU cooler and in the PSU.

What do you think happens to all that air being sucked into the case by those fans? Think the case blows up like a balloon until it bursts?


Heck, have you tested your enclosure at all with open-air coolers?
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Dondan has, yes.
Have you?
No?
Please, don't let that stop you from being opinionated.

Cases with no fans are forced to recycle hot air all the time because, well, there is nothing making that air get in or out of the case.
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Have you even looked at the case?
Didn't you notice how the GPU, CPU and PSU fans are about a millimeter from well-ventilated side panels?
Now you may think they will refuse all that fresh air from outside and stubbornly recycle hot air through the millimeter gaps, but the concept isn't new, Shuttle has been building cases with ventilated side panels and GPUs next to them for over 15 years and it turns out they defy your expectations and draw air in from the outside.

You only have to test your own case to see what happens when you use non-blower cards inside cases that have no forced airflow inside.
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Again totally missing the difference between the average ATX tower and a well-designed SFF enclosure.

Have you done any thorough testing whatsoever? Because I'm starting to think that you haven't. Or else you wouldn't be making such claims.
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So many of you have yet to try high-powered gpu cards in small enclosures. It seems you will find out about the truth the hard way.
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You are aware that you are in the SMALL FORM FACTOR sub, right? Try to understand what SMALL FORM FACTOR means and why we are here.

What makes it worse is that, somehow, you actually claim that blowers are worse. I have no idea how could you ever get to that conclusion.
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Very simple: two or three 80-100mm fans will suck in more air than one 60-70mm fans.

You couldn't reach it testing, because testing will yield completely different results.. so, how?
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Dondan has tested the case. You have not. Yet you are accusing him of not testing. Again, the audacity.
 
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raazman said:
I suggest you read the thread and read up on the basic laws of physics before making a fool of yourself.
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Like I said. Just ignore his existence. Don't worry about what he says. He ignores testing in leu of his own beliefs and frequently flames people. Trolls like him are not interested in discussion but to get a rise out of you. He frequents other boards and is equally abrasive there as well.
 
cowsgomoo2 said:
I thought we had that discussion a while back in this thread, prava. I told you that in the case of Dan A4, the GPU fans and the CPU fan act as both case fans and radiator fans due to the proximity to the vents of the case. You claimed that air is being recycled due to a few mm of gap between the fans and the vents of the case. The discussion stopped there. I'd like to say that the few mm difference is inconsequential according to my experience with ducting in the Ncase M1.
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Problem is that my own testing on the M1 show very different results. I can tell you that my 290X non-blower would make the M1 roasty after a few hours of intense gaming. That translates into drive temperatures spiking above 50ºC, something that is unacceptable by my standards. Mind you, the card itself will still feature very acceptable temperatures (the Sapphire tri-X is one of the best versions in regards of cooling and noise), but the rest of the case won't. To the point that the whole case is very warm to the touch.

All in all the problem itself isn't on the gpu, nor the cpu. Both components will get some form of fresh air from the outside... the problem is that the lack of airflow inside the case will force some of the heat to pass on to the case itself. And by doing that you are heating up every single component inside the case, and because there is no active cooling inside the case, there is no means of evacuating that heat outside of the enclosure.

crisisv87akd said:
prava I think discussing is not a bad thing, despite other rude comments around. But some people won't be open minded to do so. You are doing good by questioning and reasoning. On the mean time the best to do is to keep Dondan words and his own experience, and once we receive the case, we can experiment and test all we want and share experiences, just ignore some of the comments on this thread.
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I simply doubt claims that I find unfounded, whether they come from a company or another member. How could I agree on something without any strong backing, specially when my own experiences (and logic) contradicts it? It is very funny that some users call me a "troll"... as if they had any idea of what trolling is, in reality.
 
prava said:
I simply doubt claims that I find unfounded, whether they come from a company or another member. How could I agree on something without any strong backing, specially when my own experiences (and logic) contradicts it? It is very funny that some users call me a "troll"... as if they had any idea of what trolling is, in reality.
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Though I get your point, it makes no sense to be too pushy on the matter, since none of us has the case on hands. Dan does, until we receive our cases and test, we would be debating over theories built in the air.
 
prava said:
Problem is that my own testing on the M1 show very different results. I can tell you that my 290X non-blower would make the M1 roasty after a few hours of intense gaming. That translates into drive temperatures spiking above 50ºC, something that is unacceptable by my standards.
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But your standards has no bearings with reality. Here's a temperature analysis of failure rates of hard disks by IBM. In the end your feelings about what temperatures electronics components should run at don't matter. Humans and electronics just have different temperature tolerances.
disk_failures2.png


I don't really care about heat degradation of electronics as that will take so many years, and us target audience are not the kind to still be using 5 year old CPUs and GPUs to feel the effect.
 
cowsgomoo2 said:
I don't really care about heat degradation of electronics as that will take so many years, and us target audience are not the kind to still be using 5 year old CPUs and GPUs to feel the effect.
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Sandybridge is over 5 years old and is what I might be using in the case until a decent upgrade is finally released.

On a side note, I hope Linus takes back what he said about open air GPU coolers in this case after testing out the EVGA card in the A4-SFX.
 
prava said:
Why would you be disappointed with blower-style gpu? In a case without fans it is the best possible solution.
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It is claims like these, based on no testing at all (since we don't have the case) which I generally don't like. I hope people don't order their expensive founders editions to find out later that having an open air is better. I'm not saying open air is better, i'm just not sure (but i guess it will be since Dan confirmed it). Stating that something is the best possible solution is not very constructive for the discussion.
 
cowsgomoo2 said:
But your standards has no bearings with reality. Here's a temperature analysis of failure rates of hard disks by IBM. In the end your feelings about what temperatures electronics components should run at don't matter. Humans and electronics just have different temperature tolerances.
disk_failures2.png


I don't really care about heat degradation of electronics as that will take so many years, and us target audience are not the kind to still be using 5 year old CPUs and GPUs to feel the effect.
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Well, it depends on the study you check. This guys found a direct correlation between drive temperature and failure rates

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~gurumurthi/papers/acmtos13.pdf

For the record, the image you picture shows something very different that what you are mentioning: that graph shows that the failure rate is lowest at a middle-ground temperature (35ºC to 45ºC) but it increases on the sides of the graph... so, according to this study low temperatures (sub 35ºC) are as bad as high temperatures (over 45ºC).
 
prava said:
the problem is that the lack of airflow inside the case will force some of the heat to pass on to the case itself. And by doing that you are heating up every single component inside the case, and because there is no active cooling inside the case, there is no means of evacuating that heat outside of the enclosure.
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this is not accurate. 3 fans on the GPU means 3 fans worth of airflow inside the case. that's 3 fans worth of pressure blowing hot air out of every hole in the case. please stop spreading FUD in this thread

re: hard drive temperatures. the SSD/hdd slot in this case is right next to the GPU. anything there WILL get hot. if you want it less hot, don't pick a GPU that blows hot air on it. I can get behind this idea. but we need to wait for real numbers from real testers to know exactly what happens there.
 
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bAMtan2 said:
this is not accurate. 3 fans on the GPU means 3 fans worth of airflow inside the case. that's 3 fans worth of pressure blowing hot air out of every hole in the case. please stop spreading FUD in this thread

re: hard drive temperatures. the SSD/hdd slot in this case is right next to the GPU. anything there WILL get hot. if you want it less hot, don't pick a GPU that blows hot air on it. I can get behind this idea. but we need to wait for real numbers from real testers to know exactly what happens there.
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We can put the hard drive/ssd in the front of the case
 
bAMtan2 said:
this is not accurate. 3 fans on the GPU means 3 fans worth of airflow inside the case. that's 3 fans worth of pressure blowing hot air out of every hole in the case. please stop spreading FUD in this thread

re: hard drive temperatures. the SSD/hdd slot in this case is right next to the GPU. anything there WILL get hot. if you want it less hot, don't pick a GPU that blows hot air on it. I can get behind this idea. but we need to wait for real numbers from real testers to know exactly what happens there.
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One thing you're forgetting is that the air will get quite heated when passing the GPU heatsink. This compared to a regular case fan which also pushes air in, with the exception that it won't get heated.
Now I don't know how hot the air will get, but lets say (SPECULATION) that the air exiting the GPU heatsink is 50C°. That air is going warm up the rest of the case on it's way out as the GPU fans pulls in new air.

So both the CPU and GPU will have adequate cooling as they both pull fresh air from the perforated case. RAM might be cool enough by the CPU fan as that air probably wont get as hot as the GPU air. SSD/HDD should also be fine as long as it stays under 60C°.

A blower GPU will probably keep the case cooler, but I don't know if it matter :)
 
pellen said:
One thing you're forgetting is that the air will get quite heated when passing the GPU heatsink. This compared to a regular case fan which also pushes air in, with the exception that it won't get heated.
Now I don't know how hot the air will get, but lets say (SPECULATION) that the air exiting the GPU heatsink is 50C°. That air is going warm up the rest of the case on it's way out as the GPU fans pulls in new air.

So both the CPU and GPU will have adequate cooling as they both pull fresh air from the perforated case. RAM might be cool enough by the CPU fan as that air probably wont get as hot as the GPU air. SSD/HDD should also be fine as long as it stays under 60C°.

A blower GPU will probably keep the case cooler, but I don't know if it matter :)
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Man, you guys are like broken records saying the same thing over and over. Dondan has tested this and we are taking his word for it. An open cooler type gpu makes sense considering there is no space in between the fans and the case vents.
 
ngff said:
If you are concerned about temperature read this article (German): DAN Cases A4-SFX im Test: Das kleinste Gaming-Gehäuse der Welt kann was (Seite 3)

I would use a 90W CPU + 180W GPU and you are good to go.
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Thanks for the link.
From this result, two facts can be derived. First: The bicameral principle works well. Second: The DAN Cases A4 SFX actually manages to cool hardware at no extra case fan with the ambient air.
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There you go Prava, your FUD has been invalidated.
 
raazman said:
Man, you guys are like broken records saying the same thing over and over. Dondan has tested this and we are taking his word for it. An open cooler type gpu makes sense considering there is no space in between the fans and the case vents.
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Come on man, did you even read my post? As I said in it, I too think that the temperature on CPU and GPU will be really good as all fans can draw fresh air straight from the vents (as both Dondan's data and the computerbase link shows, no argue there).

I'm just saying that the case temperature probably will be higher with an open cooler, and at the same time a GPU with a blower cooler will probably be hotter as it's not as efficient as an open cooler.
I'm guessing that the case temperature in the A4-SFX doesn't matter that much though. There isn't that many passively cooled components that rely on the case temperature, and the chambers in the case will only make it better :)

Dondan, is there any data on the difference in case air temperature using blower style vs open cooler? (please don't take this as criticism, I'm only curious as I haven't seen any data on air temperature inside the case...or have I just missed it in this massive thread?)
 
Anyone who would like to buy my case from the kickstarter campaign?
Actually i dont need the case after all..
 
pellen said:
Dondan, is there any data on the difference in case air temperature using blower style vs open cooler? (please don't take this as criticism, I'm only curious as I haven't seen any data on air temperature inside the case...or have I just missed it in this massive thread?)
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First Post in this thread in the Cooling Spoiler. But only for the GPU itself not for the case temp.


rude said:
dondan

I'll ask again, but any news on dust filters?
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Working with DEMCiflex on it.


Jann5s said:
Dan: i don't think this graphics card exists :p
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I change it. Thanks :)
 
dondan said:
prava:
Yes you are right, but I call it physic and not magic. It is called Stack effect. >> Stack effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are right a fan is more efficient as the stack effect, but because of the small size of the A4-SFX static pressure and the stack effect is enough.
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Stack effect is something that happens in big structures with little forced ventilation. In this case with an open air GPU, hot air gets pushed out because there are fans pushing it in. It has to get out somewhere.

The GPU fans act as intake case fans. Bigger cases must have additional fans to avoid recirculating exausted air (and are inefficient in this sense), which do not happen in this case due to the low internal volume.
 
QuantumBraced said:
... I'm really not sure why he went SFX-L. Yes, it's technically the highest wattage you can fit in the case, but extra wattage does not give you extra performance. 700W is a complete waste for a single GPU system. And despite having a smaller fan, I'm not sure the Corsair SF450/S600 wouldn't be quieter, as SilverStone stuff is is not really the best quality (I love SilverStone, but it's true).

...
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I just had to replace my Silverstone 450W SFX, because it can't handle overclocking the new titan and 6700K. My PC just started to turn off, then reboot during bechmarks. Installed the Corsair SF600 that I had laying around waiting for the A4-SFX, and all issues went away, even got higher overclocks :)

It was the first time I had issues with the Siliverston 450W (ST45SF-G)... then again, I never overclocked my maxwell titan.
 
the best sfx power supply still is the corsair sf450. it has much more stable voltages with different loads then the silverstone
 
Diverge said:
I just had to replace my Silverstone 450W SFX, because it can't handle overclocking the new titan and 6700K. My PC just started to turn off, then reboot during bechmarks. Installed the Corsair SF600 that I had laying around waiting for the A4-SFX, and all issues went away, even got higher overclocks :)

It was the first time I had issues with the Siliverston 450W (ST45SF-G)... then again, I never overclocked my maxwell titan.
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are you the first person with TITAN XP in mini ITX? congratulations :) maybe DAN will send you a case first ;)
 
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