Cybenetics: Better Paid-For Badges for Your PSU?

[FrgMstr]

so you mean that the inclusion about the Energy Star is not among the requirements, in order to be considered as a standard? because that's what i wrote above

I did mention anything about Energy Star. Not sure what requirements you are talking about. What standard are you referring to? Again, I suggest that you do not know what you are talking about, or simply do not have the ability to communicate your question properly.

 

[[Spectre]]

so you mean that the inclusion about the Energy Star is not among the requirements, in order to be considered as a standard? because that's what i wrote above

Of course not. Industry bodies set all kinds of standards that are not part of Energy Star or fill in other government program. Maybe you should read the article you are commenting on?

 

[FrgMstr]

I was talking about Aris's comment during the interview that :"For 80 PLUS it took 2-3 years before Energy Star included it."

OK. I am not sure what your question to me is about Aris' statement.

 

[[Spectre]]

The question is why, the 80plus standard was adopted, while just like Aris said "For 80 PLUS it took 2-3 years before Energy Star included it", while on the other hand , the same tolerance isn't shown for the newly-founded Cybenetics project as well.

Adopted by who?

 

[Sith'ari]

Adopted by who?

by you of course. I have already comment for your review about 80plus . You said in the review that : ".................We started doing this because of the intense corporate focus on 80 PLUSآ® certifications, not because we find these all that useful."

 

[FrgMstr]

The question is why, the 80plus standard was adopted, while just like Aris said "For 80 PLUS it took 2-3 years before Energy Star included it", while on the other hand , the same tolerance isn't shown for the newly-founded Cybenetics project as well.

It was fully my decision (IIRC) to do the 80 Plus efficiency testing. I decided to do that because PSU manufacturers were, and still are, heavily pushing the 80 Plus efficiency branding in their marketing. We wanted to see if there was any truth to those badges. Up until recently, most PSUs we tested did not meet those 80 Plus "certifications." I always thought that was a big point of interest to our readers, and quite frankly to me personally. 80 Plus is a marketing tool IMO.

What exact standard is Cybenetics testing that you would want us to test for in our reviews?

 

[[Spectre]]

by you of course. I have already comment for your review about 80plus . You said in the review that : ".................We started doing this because of the intense corporate focus on 80 PLUSآ® certifications, not because we find these all that useful."

I already answered that question...................................................... Cybenetics: Better Paid-For Badges for Your PSU?

 

[[Spectre]]

I said it before. For NOISE. Just because a standard doesn't exist, what does that mean? That the customers will never be informed about noise, waiting few decades untill a "standard" shows up ? !!

(*anyway, going for sleep. It's 2 o'clock past midnight here in Greece . Can't stand anymore.)

And you were answered before.

 

[FrgMstr]

I said it before. For NOISE. Just because a standard doesn't exist, what does that mean? That the customers will never be informed about noise, waiting few decades untill a "standard" shows up ? !!
(*anyway, going for sleep. It's 2 o'clock past midnight here in Greece . Can't stand anymore.)

I clearly answered this above. We do not have the resources to properly test for PSU noise. Not sure how much more clear I can be on this.

But again, this goes back to exactly what Paul stated in the article. Cybenetics is looking a lot more like a review site, rather than a certification company. Which is fine with me. More power to them.

 

[whatevs]

Meh, i truly hope it fails for exactly the reasons pointed out. If they were consumer oriented, the membership fees would be used towards anonymously/randomly buying retail kits and verifying those. This is purely a monetization ploy to become one of those golden parachutes, a regulation that has no checks and is just a rubber stamp, wink wink for the cheaters and a tax on everyone else.

Feel sorry for the Aris dude selling his reputation. It only took me a couple of minutes to come up with idea to use fee to buy retail kits.

So their current plan is for users and other review sites to test retail units to try and catch the cheaters. How is this any better than 80 Plus?

 

[Ripskin]

Interesting for them to try for publicity when the core issues seem to still be in contention making them at this point really not that different in the end it seems. At least they showed up and gave responses.
Good read!

 

[Sith'ari]

.........................
So their current plan is for users and other review sites to test retail units to try and catch the cheaters. How is this any better than 80 Plus?

As a customer what would you prefer?
a certification (80plus) which uses measurements for 3 load levels, or a certification which uses thousands of load-combination of measurements like Cybenetics does ?
The experts can argue as much they want whether Cybenetics's evaluation should be considered "certification" or not, but i'm a customer - (* Paul, besides from [H]'s forum, he also knows me from JonnyGuru's forum as well, and he knows that i'm someone who cares for only the best PSUs) -, so, myself, as a customer who seeks only the best, i want the PSU that i'm about to buy to bear a certification which uses a methodology that pushes the PSU to its limits.
So when i see the A+ ETA at the box (*which so far no PSU has been rewarded with), i will know that this PSU excelled in thousands of load-combinations of testing in order to achieve this A+.
That's what i care about, as a customer, not for marketing certifications.

 

[whatevs]

As a customer what would you prefer?
a certification (80plus) which uses measurements for 3 load levels, or a certification which uses thousands of load-combination of measurements like Cybenetics does ?

So when i see the A+ ETA at the box (*which so far no PSU has been rewarded with), i will know that this PSU excelled in thousands of load-combinations of testing in order to achieve this A+.
That's what i care about, as a customer, not for marketing certifications.

There are so many issues with that logic. Just pure physics/reality of how a PSU works(those 3 are very good indicators of how PSU behaves) and how non-nonsensical it is(does Jonny Guru or any other valued reviewer only test 20/50/100 for one second to check if its a good PSU).

You're saying that the "no hormones added" label on chicken packaging actual means something. It literally says, like right next to it, that they are not legally allowed to add hormones to meat.

"We certify this PSU with ETA A+ rating", fine print: "We actually only certify what manufacturers send us and do not verify/certify what is publicly available in retail stores".

 

[Sith'ari]

There are so many issues with that logic. Just pure physics/reality of how a PSU works(those 3 are very good indicators of how PSU behaves) and how non-nonsensical it is(does Jonny Guru or any other valued reviewer only test 20/50/100 for one second to check if its a good PSU).
You're saying that the "no hormones added" label on chicken packaging actual means something. It literally says, like right next to it, that they are not legally allowed to add hormones to meat.
"We certify this PSU with ETA A+ rating", fine print: "We actually only certify what manufacturers send us and do not verify/certify what is publicly available in retail stores".

1) Have you ever read Aris's reviews? They are the most technical reviews, full of numbers and stats. You say about valued reviewers.... In my opinion , he is the most valued reviewer in the PSU field at the current time and this can be proved easily, since 2 of the most important hardware sites, Techpowerup & Tom's hardware, they both use Aris as their PSU reviewer.
2) In order to do all these thorough PSU-tests, he has thrown tons of money over the years in order to buy extremely-expensive-state-of-the-art equipment.
(*You may think that it's not important, but the last few years, i've been following all the discussions among the PSU experts/reviewers, mostly at JG forum but also at [H] as well. So let me tell you a little inside info from what i learned : The PSU review field as a job, pays very (very) few money, and this is causing troubles at even the greatest PSU reviewers, when referring to buying new and most accurate equipment. So, from customer's point of view, can you imagine how much i value a person ( Aris ), who has thrown tons of money in an area that pays very few money? From my point of view, as a customer who has obsession buying the best of PSUs, i consider this "priceless" !! )
3) You mentioned the possibility for PSU companies to send "Gold samples" for reviewing. It's a possibility yes, but....... A) You can't blame Cybenetics for that !!! B) Aris has proven through his work as a reviewer over the years, that he has all the knowledge & means in order to spot such kind of issues. He was the first reviewer who made the "Hold-UP time - Power OK signal" tests, and he discovered lots of PSUs that were having inaccurate Power_OK signal, meaning it was staying active for much longer time than it should, thus, leading our motherboards into stressfull situations.
So his history as a reviewer proved that he tries to expose flaws (*or perhaps even deception) from the manufacturer's side !!!

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

This right here is key:

It is quite simple actually, when you set only three load levels at 20%, 50% and 100%, this means that for a PSU of 1 kW capacity you leave a 200 W region totally unexplored. There was an effort to rectify this with the highest 80 PLUS level, which includes official testing at 10% but still a large operation region is left untested. Moreover, if you check PSU reviews of experienced reviewers you will notice that only a percentage of PSUs actually hit their official certification, especially in Platinum and Titanium categories. Personally I have tested several Titanium and man Platinum PSUs at normal conditions and most of them weren’t able to achieve the desired efficiency levels. The problem isn’t so evident at typical loads like 50% or a little higher ones (75%) but mostly at light loads and very high ones.

So many PSU's only have good efficiency at about 80% load, bit drops off quickly below that, and the vast majority of systems spend a majority of their time at or near idle.

I have found that the most efficient systems I have built have used low wattage picopsu's from MiniBox, not necessarily because their power bricks are extremely efficient, but just because they are low wattage, soy builds stay in a more efficient load range.

I have three Haswell HTPC's (Two Celerons and one low TDP dual core i5) each with a GeForce GT720 that idle between 6-8W total for the entire system at the wall, using a PicoPSU+80w power brick combo from MiniBox.

No ATX power supply I am aware of could do that.

 

[[Spectre]]

There are so many issues with that logic. Just pure physics/reality of how a PSU works(those 3 are very good indicators of how PSU behaves) and how non-nonsensical it is(does Jonny Guru or any other valued reviewer only test 20/50/100 for one second to check if its a good PSU).

You're saying that the "no hormones added" label on chicken packaging actual means something. It literally says, like right next to it, that they are not legally allowed to add hormones to meat.

"We certify this PSU with ETA A+ rating", fine print: "We actually only certify what manufacturers send us and do not verify/certify what is publicly available in retail stores".

That is actually a good point. Cybenetics only tests the actual load for a few seconds which doesn't tell you anything. At load efficiency and output voltages do change some over time. We often see different values at the end of our 30 minute and 8 hour test windows. That even ignores the issue of peak power versus continuous power that you can run into and the effect you see from derating at temperature.

 

[[Spectre]]

1) Have you ever read Aris's reviews? They are the most technical reviews, full of numbers and stats. You say about valued reviewers.... In my opinion , he is the most valued reviewer in the PSU field at the current time and this can be proved easily, since 2 of the most important hardware sites, Techpowerup & Tom's hardware, they both use Aris as their PSU reviewer.
2) In order to do all these thorough PSU-tests, he has thrown tons of money over the years in order to buy extremely-expensive-state-of-the-art equipment.
(*You may think that it's not important, but the last few years, i've been following all the discussions among the PSU experts/reviewers, mostly at JG forum but also at [H] as well. So let me tell you a little inside info from what i learned : The PSU review field as a job, pays very (very) few money, and this is causing troubles at even the greatest PSU reviewers, when referring to buying new and most accurate equipment. So, from customer's point of view, can you imagine how much i value a person ( Aris ), who has thrown tons of money in an area that pays very few money? From my point of view, as a customer who has obsession buying the best of PSUs, i consider this "priceless" !! )
3) You mentioned the possibility for PSU companies to send "Gold samples" for reviewing. It's a possibility yes, but....... A) You can't blame Cybenetics for that !!! B) Aris has proven through his work as a reviewer over the years, that he has all the knowledge & means in order to spot such kind of issues. He was the first reviewer who made the "Hold-UP time - Power OK signal" tests, and he discovered lots of PSUs that were having inaccurate Power_OK signal, meaning it was staying active for much longer time than it should, thus, leading our motherboards into stressfull situations.
So his history as a reviewer proved that he tries to expose flaws (*or perhaps even deception) from the manufacturer's side !!!

1) I'd be interested in what metric you could use to justify that. Seems like an odd claim given the history involved.

2) If it is paying Aris so poorly then how is that true? Also, and I know you will, confuse expensive with necessary or even sufficient.

3) What does hold up time have to do with being able to spot cherry picks? Nothing.

Sith'ari, your posts are making less and less sense as you go on. The non-sequiturs above just don't convey a point. I get that you as a fellow Greek are upset we pointed out some issues with Cybenetics but you just aren't reading what is written or processing it right.

 

[unab0mb]

1) So, just like i said at previous post of mine, since the PSU industry so far seems to embrace the new Cybenetics methodology

What evidence do you have of that? Link to any major PSU manufacturer's press release discussing their embracing Cybernetic's methodology or future branding on their retail boxes please.

From the man himself:

we acquire lots of samples on our own and post the results on the database so everyone can see them. Actually a significant number of the evaluation reports that we provide are from samples that we acquired on our own since the corresponding companies weren't interested in sending them. But since they are popular PSUs we wanted them included in our database.

That smells of review, not certification.

A link to Cybernetic's own database does not mean the manufacturers give a rat's ass about them. It was already stated that "a significant number" are purchased by Cybernetics themselves for testing simply because they are popular PSUs that they wanted listed on their site. How many exactly? How are the rest procured and through what outlets? Spare parts lying around? Stuff previously submitted to review sites that Aris has access to? A friend of a friend building a new system that just let him get his hands on it for a short time?

How many PSUs were actually submitted directly from the mfg. to Cybernetics for the purpose of putting their "certification" on the box? Maybe zero?

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

How many PSUs were actually submitted directly from the mfg. to Cybernetics for the purpose of putting their "certification" on the box? Maybe zero?

That would actually be a good thing.

Cuts down on cherrypicking golden samples for the certification.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Am I the only one whose brain keeps autocorrecting their name to "Cybernetic"?

It's really an unfortunate name.

 

[FrgMstr]

Am I the only one whose brain keeps autocorrecting their name to "Cybernetic"?

It's really an unfortunate name.

It's a smart name but would have been a nonstarter in terms of marketing.

 

[Sith'ari]

1) I'd be interested in what metric you could use to justify that. Seems like an odd claim given the history involved.
2) If it is paying Aris so poorly then how is that true? Also, and I know you will, confuse expensive with necessary or even sufficient.
3) What does hold up time have to do with being able to spot cherry picks? Nothing.
Sith'ari, your posts are making less and less sense as you go on. The non-sequiturs above just don't convey a point. I get that you as a fellow Greek are upset we pointed out some issues with Cybenetics but you just aren't reading what is written or processing it right.

1) I'm surprised that you are asking this question, considering the fact that i already told you the same things about a year ago. We had a very extensive discussion, but if you don't remember let me remind it to you: http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13582&highlight=spectre&page=5 . So, perhaps my conclusion might seem odd to you, but on the other hand, what seems odd to me is that you ask me to clarify details that have been discussed about one year ago !!
2a) !!!! WHAT ??? "If it is paying Aris so poorly then how is that true?" ? So according to you, the fact that the PSU-reviewing job pays very little, this means that someone is unable to buy expensive equipment? Perhaps.... he is having a second job, and does the reviewing because it's his obsession? I'm just saying an idea that could answer your question. So, you are saying that the PSU-reviewing is your only job? You must be getting paid pretty well then, but on the other side, i've heard an extremely famous PSU-reviewer (*and you know very well who i mean, and just to clarify , i'm not talking about Aris ) stating that PSU reviewing pays very little money!!. Finally, i have to ask. Do you doubt that Aris has the most expensive-state-of-the-art testing equipment? Because if you do, i would very much like to hear who do you think is the reviewer who overpasses Aris on this field.
2b) Also, by saying that i'm confusing expensive with necessary, i believe you are implying, that according to you, Aris although owns expensive equipment, he lacks at doing what is necessary? If that's indded what you mean, can i ask you a question? : WHY during our conversations at JonnyGuru forums (in which Aris was particitating as well ), you never accused Aris for lack of knowledge?
3) I believe that i made it clear before: The fact that Aris's test have exposed dangerous and potential threatening situations for our hardware, is a strong indication about how much thorough Aris's work is, and this by itself leads to the conclusion that since Aris's work can expose flaws, is also likely to expose deception as well. (at my previous quote i never took it as a granted as you were implying, i just said : """So his history as a reviewer proved that he tries to expose flaws (*or perhaps even deception) from the manufacturer's side !!! """ )
4) This was the point that made my head explode!!, so according to you, i support Aris because he's Greek? !!! Nothing can be more inaccurate. I admire Aris's professionalism at his work, i don't care if he's Greek or not. If your claim is true, then i challenge you to find and show us , even one single comment of support that i made for Anandtech's PSU reviewer E. Fylladitakis ( http://www.anandtech.com/show/11552/the-enermax-revolution-sfx-650w-psu-review ) who -if i judge from his name- is Greek as well . Let me try saving you some time regarding the question i asked you : Not even one time i've made a support comment to this "fellow Greek" . ( P.S. You can also ask the Czech Republic PSU-reviewer Pavel, about the donations that i've made for his review site. These were donations at the amount of several hundred € !!. Hint: Pavel isn't Greek !! EDIT: Important detail: In the past, i also offered similar donations to Aris but he kindly REJECTED THEM!! This is a strong indication of how much "concrete" Aris's character is !! )

 

[Sith'ari]

What evidence do you have of that? Link to any major PSU manufacturer's press release discussing their embracing Cybernetic's methodology or future branding on their retail boxes please.
From the man himself:
That smells of review, not certification.
A link to Cybernetic's own database does not mean the manufacturers give a rat's ass about them. It was already stated that "a significant number" are purchased by Cybernetics themselves for testing simply because they are popular PSUs that they wanted listed on their site. How many exactly? How are the rest procured and through what outlets? Spare parts lying around? Stuff previously submitted to review sites that Aris has access to? A friend of a friend building a new system that just let him get his hands on it for a short time?
How many PSUs were actually submitted directly from the mfg. to Cybernetics for the purpose of putting their "certification" on the box? Maybe zero?

-Is Seasonic's -(*the PSU company with the most GOLD awards given from [H] )- announcement good enough for you? : https://seasonic.com/seasonic-embraces-new-cybenetics-ratings/
-Also, just like i said before, i followed the discussions (*mostly through JG forums but [H]'s forum as well ) from several of the most important PSU reviewers and several other important figures in the PSU industry. For example, during these discussions, i didn't see any negative comment about Cybenetics's programm from Jonny Gerow (a.k.a Jonny Guru ) who is in charge of Corsair's PSU department, and i also saw positive comments from Antec's representative as well.

 

[[Spectre]]

1) I'm surprised that you are asking this question, considering the fact that i already told you the same things about a year ago. We had a very extensive discussion, but if you don't remember let me remind it to you: http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13582&highlight=spectre&page=5 . So, perhaps my conclusion might seem odd to you, but on the other hand, what seems odd to me is that you ask me to clarify details that have been discussed about one year ago !!

I have no clue what you are talking about and you didn't give a metric. I am guessing you are trolling at this point.

2a) !!!! WHAT ??? "If it is paying Aris so poorly then how is that true?" ? So according to you, the fact that the PSU-reviewing job pays very little, this means that someone is unable to buy expensive equipment? Perhaps.... he is having a second job, and does the reviewing because it's his obsession? I'm just saying an idea that could answer your question. So, you are saying that the PSU-reviewing is your only job? You must be getting paid pretty well then, but on the other side, i've heard an extremely famous PSU-reviewer (*and you know very well who i mean, and just to clarify , i'm not talking about Aris ) stating that PSU reviewing pays very little money!!. Finally, i have to ask. Do you doubt that Aris has the most expensive-state-of-the-art testing equipment? Because if you do, i would very much like to hear who do you think is the reviewer who overpasses Aris on this field.

Anything is possible I suppose but not everything is likely.

2b) Also, by saying that i'm confusing expensive with necessary, i believe you are implying, that according to you, Aris although owns expensive equipment, he lacks at doing what is necessary? If that's indded what you mean, can i ask you a question? : WHY during our conversations at JonnyGuru forums (in which Aris was particitating as well ), you never accused Aris for lack of knowledge?

No, I said what I meant. And you managed to do exactly what I said you would do and then infer something else. What I said is "Also, and I know you will, confuse expensive with necessary or even sufficient." You do exactly what Cybenetics wants you to do when they talk about how expensive their equipment is, you assume that expensive means that it is better or right and everything else is wrong. That is not a correct assumption on your part. It is also another red flag when Cybenetics talks being a standards granting body with a certification. A certification or standard will give you parameters that your instrumentation must meet. If they meet the parameters then they are fine to use in the process unless there is only one piece of equipment that can do that. That is not the case here by a long shot.

3) I believe that i made it clear before: The fact that Aris's test have exposed dangerous and potential threatening situations for our hardware, is a strong indication about how much thorough Aris's work is, and this by itself leads to the conclusion that since Aris's work can expose flaws, is also likely to expose deception as well. (at my previous quote i never took it as a granted as you were implying, i just said : """So his history as a reviewer proved that he tries to expose flaws (*or perhaps even deception) from the manufacturer's side !!! """ )

What dangerous situations? You talked about hold up time. Dropping out short of the intel spec of hold up time is hardly dangerous. Annoying? yes. A product to fail because it missed a spec you reviewed? yes. Can cause an issue? yes. Dangerous? Not exactly.

And your logical fallacy that because you believe someone is good at X means that they are good at unrelated Y is truly baffling. I'm not really sure what you want me to say.

4) This was the point that made my head explode!!, so according to you, i support Aris because he's Greek? !!! Nothing can be more inaccurate. I admire Aris's professionalism at his work, i don't care if he's Greek or not. If your claim is true, then i challenge you to find and show us , even one single comment of support that i made for Anandtech's PSU reviewer E. Fylladitakis ( http://www.anandtech.com/show/11552/the-enermax-revolution-sfx-650w-psu-review ) who -if i judge from his name- is Greek as well . Let me try saving you some time regarding the question i asked you : Not even one time i've made a support comment to this "fellow Greek" . ( P.S. You can also ask the Czech Republic PSU-reviewer Pavel, about the donations that i've made for his review site. These were donations at the amount of several hundred € !!. Hint: Pavel isn't Greek !! EDIT: Important detail: In the past, i also offered similar donations to Aris but he kindly REJECTED THEM!! This is a strong indication of how much "concrete" Aris's character is !! )

So what is your reason then for your inability to understand the article you are commenting on or the previous one about 80 Plus?

 

[Sith'ari]

1)I have no clue what you are talking about and you didn't give a metric. I am guessing you are trolling at this point.
2)Anything is possible I suppose but not everything is likely.
3)No, I said what I meant. And you managed to do exactly what I said you would do and then infer something else. What I said is "Also, and I know you will, confuse expensive with necessary or even sufficient." You do exactly what Cybenetics wants you to do when they talk about how expensive their equipment is, you assume that expensive means that it is better or right and everything else is wrong. That is not a correct assumption on your part. It is also another red flag when Cybenetics talks being a standards granting body with a certification. A certification or standard will give you parameters that your instrumentation must meet. If they meet the parameters then they are fine to use in the process unless there is only one piece of equipment that can do that. That is not the case here by a long shot.
4)What dangerous situations? You talked about hold up time. Dropping out short of the intel spec of hold up time is hardly dangerous. Annoying? yes. A product to fail because it missed a spec you reviewed? yes. Can cause an issue? yes. Dangerous? Not exactly.
And your logical fallacy that because you believe someone is good at X means that they are good at unrelated Y is truly baffling. I'm not really sure what you want me to say.
5)So what is your reason then for your inability to understand the article you are commenting on or the previous one about 80 Plus?

1a)If you have no clue what i'm talking about, although i put a link , (* about a previous discussion of ours, when i said to you exactly what i said now, then i don't know what more i can tell you). My metric, as i told you back then as well-, was that your reviews have remained unchanged over the years , while Aris's reviews kept evolving all this time, by adding new tests all the time. Some of them are more useful, some of them might be less useful, but as you will surely know, evolution comes through change, and Aris always evolves his reviews. That's my metric !!
1b) And if you don't care about an opinion from someone who is just a customer, like myself, let me give you the opinion from a Dutch PSU-reviewer, that you know pretty well from JG forums, and check what is his opinion about Aris :

First of all, Aris everybody here likes your reviews. They are by far the best reviews out there. Even your first reviews on thelab.gr and TechPowerUp were already great, probably already the best there were, that was around 7 years ago? Nowadays your reviews are even much better then back then, no one will probably come close to your current standard in 5 years.

( http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showpost.php?p=139145&postcount=47 ). Important info: I will emphasize once more that he is Dutch not Greek like myself or Aris !!
2) Agreed.
3a)You didn't dispute the fact that Aris has indeed the most expensive testing equipment, like i asked, so from now on i'll take it as a fact that is indeed true.
3b) I didn't state anything, i asked you for clarification about what do you mean from the sentence in question. I didn't make any solid statement.
4)&5a)You accused me for my inability to understand, but from what i see from your answer at 4), i can say the same about you. I specifically mentioned the case of the inaccurate Power_OK signal which comes from the time-difference between Hold-UP time & Power_OK signal. I didn't mention only the Hold-UP time. These were my exact words: """"He was the first reviewer who made the "Hold-UP time - Power OK signal" tests, and he discovered lots of PSUs that were having inaccurate Power_OK signal, meaning it was staying active for much longer time than it should, thus, leading our motherboards into stressfull situations.""""
5b)I've said that countless times during my posts as a forum member here and elsewhere: I'm not a tech-expert, and of course i don't have a clue about things like ISO or what these include. IF i was a tech-expert then i wouldn't need to read your reviews right?
BUT i (*mostly) can understand what i read, and then i make my conclusions about whether i believe them or not. Specifically: you said about 80+ that """""For instance, the 80Plus program by ECOVA, was founded by EPRI (which is an electric industry-wide cooperative) and is part of the Energy Star program adopted by a number of countries and founded by government regulatory bodies."""""". So by reading that, -as a person with no technical knowledge- i naturally assumed what i said at a previous post: That the inclusion of a programm -(*Cybenetic's in our case)- from the Energy Star is among the requirements, in order to be considered as a standard. That's the logical assumption that comes out of what you wrote!!
So, with that in my mind, & combining it with what Aris said that : """"""For 80 PLUS it took 2-3 years before Energy Star included it."""""" i asked you why are you being that harsh with Cybenetics's programm, while on the other hand you adopted something that was not included at the Energy Star programm for years !!! Are we clear now of what did i ask and most importantly WHY did i ask it? You were the one who mentioned the inclusion of being a part of Energy Star as something of outmost importance ,.... not i , i just commented based on what you wrote !!
6) Finally, another comment about the review:
I've read the part saying """""In the 80 Plus test report for that unit the efficiency at 10% load was listed as 86.39%. When you look at Aris' graph for the 115v test the efficiency is around 88%."""""" , and i opened the .pdf for 80 plus report . I noticed at the bottom of the page, that it wasn't actually 80plus who conducted the test, but a 3rd company instead . It writes that """"tests were conducted by a third party independent testing firm on behalf of the 80 PLUS Program"""". So, i have to ask as a customer: Did you check the certifications of this "third party independent testing firm", since you used their results as a landmark when you compared them Cybenetics's ones?This is very important because since 80+ isn't conducting these tests by itself, a question of credibility arises (*for me at least) about the indipendent firm that 80+ uses to conduct the tests, the same question of credibility you thoroughly arised with Cybenetics's tests.

 

[[Spectre]]

1a)If you have no clue what i'm talking about, although i put a link , (* about a previous discussion of ours, when i said to you exactly what i said now, then i don't know what more i can tell you). My metric, as i told you back then as well-, was that your reviews have remained unchanged over the years , while Aris's reviews kept evolving all this time, by adding new tests all the time. Some of them are more useful, some of them might be less useful, but as you will surely know, evolution comes through change, and Aris always evolves his reviews. That's my metric !!
1b) And if you don't care about an opinion from someone who is just a customer, like myself, let me give you the opinion from a Dutch PSU-reviewer, that you know pretty well from JG forums, and check what is his opinion about Aris :
( http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showpost.php?p=139145&postcount=47 ). Important info: I will emphasize once more that he is Dutch not Greek like myself or Aris !!

You continue to fail to provide a metric or anything to justify your "since 2 of the most important hardware sites, Techpowerup & Tom's hardware" comment. So, no I have no clue what you are talking about.

3a)You didn't dispute the fact that Aris has indeed the most expensive testing equipment, like i asked, so from now on i'll take it as a fact that is indeed true.

You take all kinds of opinions as facts so I guess it really doesn't matter now does it? Nor do you understand what is being discussed about cost and necessity. I would not, however, take something as a blind fact as you do.

3b) I didn't state anything, i asked you for clarification about what do you mean from the sentence in question. I didn't make any solid statement.

No idea what you are talking about. Can you not figure out how to ask and answer a question or stay on topic? Or use the quote feature at the very least?

4)&5a)You accused me for my inability to understand, but from what i see from your answer at 4), i can say the same about you. I specifically mentioned the case of the inaccurate Power_OK signal which comes from the time-difference between Hold-UP time & Power_OK signal. I didn't mention only the Hold-UP time. These were my exact words: """"He was the first reviewer who made the "Hold-UP time - Power OK signal" tests, and he discovered lots of PSUs that were having inaccurate Power_OK signal, meaning it was staying active for much longer time than it should, thus, leading our motherboards into stressfull situations.""""

Dropping out short of the intel spec of hold up time is hardly dangerous. Annoying? yes. A product to fail because it missed a spec you reviewed? yes. Can cause an issue? yes. Dangerous? Not exactly.

And your logical fallacy that because you believe someone is good at X means that they are good at unrelated Y is truly baffling. I'm not really sure what you want me to say.

5b)I've said that countless times during my posts as a forum member here and elsewhere: I'm not a tech-expert, and of course i don't have a clue about things like ISO or what these include.

You have conclusively demonstrated that. Yes.

IF i was a tech-expert then i wouldn't need to read your reviews right?
BUT i (*mostly) can understand what i read, and then i make my conclusions about whether i believe them or not. Specifically: you said about 80+ that """""For instance, the 80Plus program by ECOVA, was founded by EPRI (which is an electric industry-wide cooperative) and is part of the Energy Star program adopted by a number of countries and founded by government regulatory bodies."""""". So by reading that, -as a person with no technical knowledge- i naturally assumed what i said at a previous post: That the inclusion of a programm -(*Cybenetic's in our case)- from the Energy Star is among the requirements, in order to be considered as a standard. That's the logical assumption that comes out of what you wrote!!

You are incorrect again. That is not the logical assumption to come to from what was written. You should read the ENTIRE article.

So, with that in my mind, & combining it with what Aris said that : """"""For 80 PLUS it took 2-3 years before Energy Star included it."""""" i asked you why are you being that harsh with Cybenetics's programm,

We are being no more harsh on this review program than we were on 80 Plus. You simply do not wish to see the truth. Nor did you ever read the previous 80 Plus article which is baffling considering how much of a "consumer" of PSU reviews you claim to be.

while on the other hand you adopted something that was not included at the Energy Star programm for years !!!

We did not adopt anything. We test a claim, but we do not adopt things.

Are we clear now of what did i ask and most importantly WHY did i ask it?

No. However, I doubt we ever will be as I am not sure if you even know what you are asking rather than just flailing around in hysterics over us pointing out some problems with this review program.

You were the one who mentioned the inclusion of being a part of Energy Star as something of outmost importance ,.... not i , i just commented based on what you wrote !!

We did not say that, you inferred that as you do many things.

6) Finally, another comment about the review:
I've read the part saying """""In the 80 Plus test report for that unit the efficiency at 10% load was listed as 86.39%. When you look at Aris' graph for the 115v test the efficiency is around 88%."""""" , and i opened the .pdf for 80 plus report . I noticed at the bottom of the page, that it wasn't actually 80plus who conducted the test, but a 3rd company instead . It writes that """"tests were conducted by a third party independent testing firm on behalf of the 80 PLUS Program"""". So, i have to ask as a customer: Did you check the certifications of this "third party independent testing firm", since you used their results as a landmark when you compared them Cybenetics's ones?This is very important because since 80+ isn't conducting these tests by itself, a question of credibility arises (*for me at least) about the indipendent firm that 80+ uses to conduct the tests, the same question of credibility you thoroughly arised with Cybenetics's tests.

You are very correct about something here and I am going to quote you. "I'm not a tech-expert, and of course i don't have a clue about things like ISO or what these include." That is very apparent from your inability to understand how 80 Plus functions. You and Aris are the only ones who question this because neither of you understand how standards bodies operate.

 

[Sith'ari]

1)You continue to fail to provide a metric or anything to justify your "since 2 of the most important hardware sites, Techpowerup & Tom's hardware" comment. So, no I have no clue what you are talking about.
2)You take all kinds of opinions as facts so I guess it really doesn't matter now does it? Nor do you understand what is being discussed about cost and necessity. I would not, however, take something as a blind fact as you do.
3)No idea what you are talking about. Can you not figure out how to ask and answer a question or stay on topic? Or use the quote feature at the very least?
4)Dropping out short of the intel spec of hold up time is hardly dangerous. Annoying? yes. A product to fail because it missed a spec you reviewed? yes. Can cause an issue? yes. Dangerous? Not exactly.
And your logical fallacy that because you believe someone is good at X means that they are good at unrelated Y is truly baffling. I'm not really sure what you want me to say.
5)You have conclusively demonstrated that. Yes.
6)You are incorrect again. That is not the logical assumption to come to from what was written. You should read the ENTIRE article.
7a) (We are being no more harsh on this review program than we were on 80 Plus. You simply do not wish to see the truth.) 7b) Nor did you ever read the previous 80 Plus article which is baffling considering how much of a "consumer" of PSU reviews you claim to be.
8)We did not adopt anything. We test a claim, but we do not adopt things.
9)No. However, I doubt we ever will be as I am not sure if you even know what you are asking rather than just flailing around in hysterics over us pointing out some problems with this review program.
10)We did not say that, you inferred that as you do many things.
11)You are very correct about something here and I am going to quote you. "I'm not a tech-expert, and of course i don't have a clue about things like ISO or what these include." That is very apparent from your inability to understand how 80 Plus functions. You and Aris are the only ones who question this because neither of you understand how standards bodies operate.

1) Oh now you don't want a metric in general (*just like the metric i gave you over a year ago, about your reviews that haven't evolved through time, on the contrary to Aris's), but you need a specific metric about my comment on Techpowerup & Tom's? !!! Wow!!! OK , i'll give you a metric here as well : When a PSU reviewer cooperates with 2 of the most important hardware sites ( Techpowerup & Tom's ) , means that he is most wanted than a reviewer who cooparates with only 1 important site ( Hardocp). How is that for a metric? Pure arithmitics, 2 > 1.
2) NO, i asked for your opinion and you didn't gave it, on the contrary to other questions, in which you have responded persistently!!, so i'll consider that as an inability of yours to prove me wrong. I'll make it even more simple: You know your test equipment and Aris's as well. Which one of these 2 test benches cost more money at the current market? Is it simple enough as a question ?
3) OK, so can you enlighten us of what exactly do you mean by saying : " Also, and I know you will, confuse expensive with necessary or even sufficient ". You mean that Aris throws money away for no reason?
4)For the second time you mention again the Hold-UP time, while i repeatidly told you that i'm talking about the case of inaccurate Power_OK signal that is being sent at motherboard. (And while you keep doing that, you continue accusing me for lack of understanding! )
5)As well as you: Check my upper responce: 4)
6) So, when someone says about a programm (Energy Star) that is : """adopted by a number of countries and founded by government regulatory bodies"""", so, according to your logic , this statement of yours is not evidence as something of outmost importance!! OK, got it !!
7b) LOL !! you are going to laugh me to death!! Why should i bother to waste my time reading about something that certifies only a fraction from what i can find through a thorough PSU review? If you were buying a PSU, would the 80+ badge would be your criteria for buying it? If this badge was enough, then your work as a PSU reviewer would be obsolete!! . So yes, as you wrote, i claim to be a PSU consumer, so i know what do i have to pay attention to, and what not...!! If you consider the 80+ as something of importance, please tell me in order not to waste time reading your reviews!! (*and i want to emphasize that for years i've been paying attention to your reviews, on the contrary to 80+ badges that i never payed attention to!! You see Paul, as a "PSU consumer", i know the difference between something useful and something worthless !! After all you said it yourself that you've been harsh on 80+, so really, i consider your argument towards me to spend my time reading something that is useless as: -INVALID- )
8) That's fine.
9) & 10) I said that i commented based on your own words. Check my upper responce : 6)
11) As is your inability to understand that 2 times i've been commenting about Power_OK signal , NOT Hold-UP time !.
Also, i never received a responce about whether or not you made a review about the certifications of this 3rd Party who conducts the tests, on behalf of 80+ . This 3rd-party's results are what you used as a landmark against Cybenetics's measurements, so i believe that as a customer i have the right to know why a proffesional PSU-reviewer used as a landmark the data of an unreviewed company (*IF you ever made a review about this company, just like you've done with 80+ & Cybenetics , please enlighten me.)

 

[FrgMstr]

1) Oh now you don't want a metric in general (*just like the metric i gave you over a year ago, about your reviews that haven't evolved through time, on the contrary to Aris's), but you need a specific metric about my comment on Techpowerup & Tom's? !!! Wow!!! OK , i'll give you a metric here as well : When a PSU reviewer cooperates with 2 of the most important hardware sites ( Techpowerup & Tom's ) , means that he is most wanted than a reviewer who cooparates with only 1 important site ( Hardocp). How is that for a metric? Pure arithmitics, 2 > 1.
2) NO, i asked for your opinion and you didn't gave it, on the contrary to other questions, in which you have responded persistently!!, so i'll consider that as an inability of yours to prove me wrong. I'll make it even more simple: You know your test equipment and Aris's as well. Which one of these 2 test benches cost more money at the current market? Is it simple enough as a question ?
3) OK, so can you enlighten us of what exactly do you mean by saying : " Also, and I know you will, confuse expensive with necessary or even sufficient ". You mean that Aris throws money away for no reason?
4)For the second time you mention again the Hold-UP time, while i repeatidly told you that i'm talking about the case of inaccurate Power_OK signal that is being sent at motherboard. (And while you keep doing that, you continue accusing me for lack of understanding! )
5)As well as you: Check my upper responce: 4)
6) So, when someone says about a programm (Energy Star) that is : """adopted by a number of countries and founded by government regulatory bodies"""", so, according to your logic , this statement of yours is not evidence as something of outmost importance!! OK, got it !!
7b) LOL !! you are going to laugh me to death!! Why should i bother to waste my time reading about something that certifies only a fraction from what i can find through a thorough PSU review? If you were buying a PSU, would the 80+ badge would be your criteria for buying it? If this badge was enough, then your work as a PSU reviewer would be obsolete!! . So yes, as you wrote, i claim to be a PSU consumer, so i know what do i have to pay attention to, and what not...!! If you consider the 80+ as something of importance, please tell me in order not to waste time reading your reviews!! (*and i want to emphasize that for years i've been paying attention to your reviews, on the contrary to 80+ badges that i never payed attention to!! You see Paul, as a "PSU consumer", i know the difference between something useful and something worthless !! After all you said it yourself that you've been harsh on 80+, so really, i consider your argument towards me to spend my time reading something that is useless as: -INVALID- )
8) That's fine.
9) & 10) I said that i commented based on your own words. Check my upper responce : 6)
11) As is your inability to understand that 2 times i've been commenting about Power_OK signal , NOT Hold-UP time !.
Also, i never received a responce about whether or not you made a review about the certifications of this 3rd Party who conducts the tests, on behalf of 80+ . This 3rd-party's results are what you used as a landmark against Cybenetics's measurements, so i believe that as a customer i have the right to know why a proffesional PSU-reviewer used as a landmark the data of an unreviewed company (*IF you ever made a review about this company, just like you've done with 80+ & Cybenetics , please enlighten me.)

Please learn how to use our quote system and paragraphs. The walls of multicolored text are too much to try to make sense of.

You can highlight the text you are referring to, and then click QUOTE. It will add it to your quote cache. You can then click INSERT QUOTES and then you go about your replying and it will make it much easier for us to address. Thanks.

 

[SvenBent]

I dont get the hate if 80+. yeah its not the bee all/end all certification but at least when it came out it was a nice added information and somehow verified by 3rd party.
before 80+ nobody talked about power efficiency among normal users nor was it adviced that often for people building PC's, the 80+ arrived and after a few years it was all the craze and maybe to much faith was put into it yes.
But in the end it made a huge culture change to start focusing on power efficiency to a point it almost mentioned in most public builds helps threads i see.
It has pushed the factories at least somehow to put out better more efficient psu'e. we went from 65% to getting close and close to that 99.9%

So in short it made a huge cultural move for power efficiency among both uses and factories. and i would like to think that at least was a good thing.

 

[[Spectre]]

1) Oh now you don't want a metric in general (*just like the metric i gave you over a year ago, about your reviews that haven't evolved through time, on the contrary to Aris's), but you need a specific metric about my comment on Techpowerup & Tom's? !!! Wow!!! OK , i'll give you a metric here as well : When a PSU reviewer cooperates with 2 of the most important hardware sites ( Techpowerup & Tom's ) , means that he is most wanted than a reviewer who cooparates with only 1 important site ( Hardocp). How is that for a metric? Pure arithmitics, 2 > 1

That is not a metric. I'll ask one last time, are you able to produce a metric for your assertion?

NO, i asked for your opinion and you didn't gave it, on the contrary to other questions, in which you have responded persistently!!, so i'll consider that as an inability of yours to prove me wrong. I'll make it even more simple: You know your test equipment and Aris's as well. Which one of these 2 test benches cost more money at the current market? Is it simple enough as a question ?

No you did not ask for my opinion. Also, Aris/Cybenetics has not offered to allow me to audit his/their financials so there is no way to answer that question. Aris has stated in the review that he has investors. Perhaps these investors are the ones with the money?

OK, so can you enlighten us of what exactly do you mean by saying : " Also, and I know you will, confuse expensive with necessary or even sufficient ". You mean that Aris throws money away for no reason?

I mean exactly what it says. I can't make English any more clear than I have. Just because you buy a very expensive piece of equipment that does not mean that the piece of equipment was necessary or sufficient for the job. What it does do, however, is allow you to make impressions on easily impressionable individuals who believe that expensive means better, necessary, or right. It impresses people who do not know better.

6) So, when someone says about a programm (Energy Star) that is : """adopted by a number of countries and founded by government regulatory bodies"""", so, according to your logic , this statement of yours is not evidence as something of outmost importance!! OK, got it !!

Why did it take me repeating it this many times for you to understand that? And we never said it was the utmost importance because industry groups also produce standards granting bodies as well which can be valid.

7b) LOL !! you are going to laugh me to death!! Why should i bother to waste my time reading about something that certifies only a fraction from what i can find through a thorough PSU review? If you were buying a PSU, would the 80+ badge would be your criteria for buying it? If this badge was enough, then your work as a PSU reviewer would be obsolete!! . So yes, as you wrote, i claim to be a PSU consumer, so i know what do i have to pay attention to, and what not...!! If you consider the 80+ as something of importance, please tell me in order not to waste time reading your reviews!! (*and i want to emphasize that for years i've been paying attention to your reviews, on the contrary to 80+ badges that i never payed attention to!! You see Paul, as a "PSU consumer", i know the difference between something useful and something worthless !! After all you said it yourself that you've been harsh on 80+, so really, i consider your argument towards me to spend my time reading something that is useless as: -INVALID- )

Because you were commenting about what you think we have done and said in the past without actually reading what we have done and said in the past. Is it such a burden for you to read something before commenting about it?

Also, i never received a responce about whether or not you made a review about the certifications of this 3rd Party who conducts the tests, on behalf of 80+ . This 3rd-party's results are what you used as a landmark against Cybenetics's measurements, so i believe that as a customer i have the right to know why a proffesional PSU-reviewer used as a landmark the data of an unreviewed company (*IF you ever made a review about this company, just like you've done with 80+ & Cybenetics , please enlighten me.)

Yes, we have written an editorial about the 80 Plus program. I invited you to read it when you started commenting about it but you did not read it as you stated above that there was no reason to do so even though you are commenting about it and our work in regards to it. Further, the results you want reviewed occur in every we review we write. Have you read ANY of those reviews at all? If you had you would see the continual review of the data produced by the 80 Plus program.