Cybenetics: Better Paid-For Badges for Your PSU?

Discussion in 'Power Supplies' started by FrgMstr, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Cybenetics: Better Paid-For Badges for Your PSU? - In the following editorial, we are going to look at what Cybenetics is, how it is "different" from 80 Plus, how it addresses the issues with PSU "certification," and what all we think this new "program" does in the end. We include a back and forth interview with Cybenetics founder as well, and look into some of his answers.
     
  2. sirmonkey1985

    sirmonkey1985 [H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010

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    their hearts where in the right place, their management skills aren't though.. i agree 80 plus cert needs to be fixed and i agree with what you said that the best way they could of changed it was by trying to take a contract and changing it from within instead of fighting against it.
     
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  3. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    We are not questioning Cybenetics motives at all. The conflicts of interest, lacking procedures to facilitate its claims, and its recent foray into suggesting what is "best" tremendously impacts the organization's credibility as to its actual mission.

    Edit: Its procedures do not nothing to facilitate 80 Plus' shortcomings. For all the issues that 80 Plus has, and you guys know we are not a fan, Cybenetics seemingly has all the same problems plus more.
     
  4. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Sounds like they need another 6 months or so to get their act together and then start again.

    At the end of the day I'm open to anything that gets me better products.
     
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  5. crmaris

    crmaris n00b

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    Thank you very much for the article and your effort. I believe that from the moment I replied in the best way I could to all the questions raised, I don't have anything more to add.

    Our hearts are still in the right place and we work night and day trying to do something that we believe in. Now if anyone wants to make a suggestion or suggestions on how to improve our methodology or work, he/she can reach us through our contact emails. And we do reply to any email that we get.

    Kyle you and anyone from your team is welcome to visit our lab and see for yourselves how we do things :) It will be a real pleasure to have you here.

    Some major points of our program that are not clearly depicted in this article:

    1) We use much more load test points in order to provide a more accurate picture of the PSU's efficiency. 80 PLUS starts testing from 20% (10% for Titanium) while we start from almost zero Watts up to full load. If this isn't a difference then I don't know what is. We clearly state in the ETA page that we try 1600 different load patterns which with the use of interpolation techniques (which are scientifically accepted) increase to around 25,000 which are necessary for the graphs to be shown correctly. Because not all PSUs have the same total power output or the same capacity at +12V and the minor rails, we cannot have exactly the same number of measuring points but there are high enough to provide the necessary accuracy in measurements.

    In the 80 PLUS comparison graphs that you used, you depict our "for reference" graphs which depict the results from the load tables (10-110% and 5VSB), that we provide as a reference for the reviewers that simply cannot test in the way that we do. Since besides the equipment they also lack the special software needed.

    So in 80 PLUS 3-4 measurement points - Cybenetics 1600 measurement points. You can clearly see who the winner is here.

    2) We do test the 5VSB rail, something that 80 PLUS neglects to do.

    3) Vampire power measurement. Again there is nothing there from the other party.

    4) PF testing, something of tremendous impact since less power goes wasted even for commercial users who don't pay for it.

    5) Noise testing, something that no one has tried so far because of its complexity.

    6) Hold up time. Because the bulk cap's size affects efficiency and very low hold-up time can also create problems in the PSU's operation in power cuts. The other party doesn't provide this information as well.

    7) We do provide info about the test equipment that we used to take all measurements, something that the other party doesn't do.

    8) We clearly depict the cable configuration of the PSU, since in some cases we heard rumors about samples provided with shorter or non-modular cables, in order to have higher efficiency

    9) Our evaluation report isn't a review but a facts sheet with measurements, numbers and graphs. Please point me in where did you see a paragraph mentioning and opinion about a product.

    10) Paid-for badges? Well I don't know anyone out there that wants to work for free or a company that can actually survive by doing pro bono work. Nonetheless, we acquire lots of samples on our own and post the results on the database so everyone can see them. Actually a significant number of the evaluation reports that we provide are from samples that we acquired on our own since the corresponding companies weren't interested in sending them. But since they are popular PSUs we wanted them included in our database.


    Now about me: In Cybenetics I don't do any testing for quite some time now but other engineers run all tests and they only come to me if there is a problem or need an expert's opinion. Even if I wanted to do so, the work load is so huge that I couldn't handle it all alone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
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  6. Gasaraki_

    Gasaraki_ Gawd

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    This article rubs me the wrong way. Don't know why, it felt like a big attack article like they might take over your "PSU review business" or something.
     
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  7. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Definitely worth a revisit in a few months.
     
  8. GDI Lord

    GDI Lord Limp Gawd

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    I feel the same way. From the (very) brief scanning of the Cybenetics idea that I've done at Jonny Guru a while ago, I support it. I did not, however, dive deep into it. Perhaps this editorial/interview is correct, perhaps not. but I support attempts at holding producers to higher standards and delivering better products to consumers.

    I don't agree with your opinion here. From what I know and have observed about Kyle, he wouldn't really think that way. (Sorry Paul Johnson, I don't have an opinion on you yet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

    I've found from personal experience that often a face-to-face meeting can solve a myriad of issues and can clear up misunderstadings. What are your thoughts on a week's holiday in Greece, Kyle? ; -)
     
  9. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    First time that has come to mind. Sorry you feel that way. Cybenetics has zero impact on HardOCP and our content. Paul and I have been discussing Cybenetics for quite a while and how it wants to position itself against 80 Plus. Seeing Aris use TomsHardware to market his company made us want to truly look into it and see what it is all about.

    That said, if nothing else, we just helped Cybenetics be seen more as a "review" organization, which of course would be "bad" for us (I guess in your eyes.). So if anything, if we were looking out for HardOCP interests, we would champion it as being a true standard.

    All that said, Paul and I thought our readers might want to hear our thoughts on Cybenetics, since we have been vocal about 80 Plus in the past.

    That's about it in a nutshell. HardOCP really does not have a horse in this race either way.
     
  10. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Let me ask you this. It is good with you that HardOCP set up a certification company, certify PSUs for thousands of dollars per unit (which is what this costs), then review those PSUs and give those units awards and write great things about them? Is is OK that 80 Plus starts writing reviews and telling you what is "best?"
     
  11. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    Initially, I too felt that this read as an attack. As the pieces started coming together (THG associations, etc...), the picture became more clear. I feel in the end that this was more along the lines of investigative journalism, and was done because there was sewer in the air. I find it to be well written and informative. Some serious issues were brought to light. He needs to get the ISO certification, ditch the review work, and focus down on making a difference. Also, this whole thing about methodology due to rumors is ridiculous. Shorter cables and hard wired vs modular? Those are big claims without hard evidence. Sadly, right now, the company (owner?) sounds like a butthurt kid that didn't have enough money to the big show and is doing a good job of making a stink that nobody wants to smell.

    Thanks for the piece. I would like to see more articles in this fashion.
     
  12. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Good point. :) But I do think you understand that what Cybenetics does has no impact on our PSU reviews. Sorry for being vague.
     
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  13. AceGoober

    AceGoober Live! Laug[H]! Overclock!

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    Cybernetics has an interesting process. Given their limited background I'd need to see larger sample size results to be on-board with their testing methodology. Thanks for the article. Definitely gives everyone an insight to how Cybernetics operates.
     
  14. mtrupi

    mtrupi Gawd

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    Plenty of room for more reviewers.
     
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  15. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    100% agree. The community could use more good PSU reviewers. The problem is, the equipment is tremendously expensive. Expensive to maintain. And actually doing the reviews is extremely resource intensive.
     
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  16. Sith'ari

    Sith'ari Gawd

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    1)I suppose there are official Cybenetic's documents about Aris's position at the company. In every interview that you take, you give the interviewed person the "self-proclaimed" title or is there a special reason for doing this for Aris specifically ?
    2)I don't know if Aris is "self-proclaimed" or not, but i know this: His reviews at Tom's & Techpowerup, are the most detailed PSU reviews in general, and -in my opinion- noone can compete his thorough tests. Everyone who will compare among PSU reviews will easily realise that.
    EDIT: I'm most certain, that just like he pushes forward the PSU-review standards, he will also push forward the Certification-standards!
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  17. twzTechman

    twzTechman Limp Gawd

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    I think this statement says it perfectly for me. While I will read a Video card/CPU Cooler/Case review cover to cover, when it comes to Power Supply reviews, I generally read the intro and conclusion.

    With that being said, I really appreciate the passion you guys show for providing these type of reviews, and everything behind them. That is what builds my trust in your reviews and why I usually get one of the items you have recommended.
     
  18. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Well...actually, the Pass/Fail we award is based on ATX12V standards, but those inside our testing criteria for temp and run time.

    And many thanks.
     
  19. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    1. Aris runs the company and is the top of the hierarchy, so if someone else gave him his title, I am sure he can reply here and I will make the correction if needed. FWIW, I am the self-proclaimed Editor-in-Chief of HardOCP. Did not know being the "boss" was a bad thing.
    2. OK. But I think you are missing the point. There are no "standards" to "certify."
     
  20. unab0mb

    unab0mb Limp Gawd

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    I don't doubt Aris is a nice guy and has a passion for what he is trying to do, does awesome PSU reviews at TH, etc. But based on his responses and those of others, it seems like a lot of people are completely missing the point that Kyle and Paul are trying to convey. I don't see this going anywhere based on what we know thus far.
     
  21. IKV1476

    IKV1476 Lurker

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    Good Read.

    My thoughts as I was reading the article reminded me a little bit from when HardOCP started doing real game play video card reviews.
    When I started to build my own systems and started playing games and I was no where near the FPS that review sights were telling me I should get, I was a little pissed off and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why my performance was so poor.
    Then I found this site and the real game play reviews and all of a sudden my card was "Good" and working as it should.

    What Cybenentics is trying to do kinda reminds me of what HardOCP did, flip the industry on its head and try to keep it "Real".
    But the biggest difference I am seeing between these two companies is HardOCP strives for brutal honesty and Cybenentics is a little to vague in its statements.

    I will need to read more about them to be sure.
    But answering a question in a round-about-way kinda puts me off.

    I can see what they are trying to do and I wish them luck, just for the fact that in the early 2,000's I sure did have my share of shit PSU's.
     
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  22. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    I am guessing another ISO9001 wannabe? (ie, pay us to claim you adhere to our definition of quality, attempting to insert themselves into the money flow.) I'd prefer to just have good quality reviews from the likes of here and JonnyGuru.
     
  23. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    ISO is a goddamn scam. I was working for a couple that served the oil and gas industry when that shit started up.....argh.
     
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  24. magoo

    magoo [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If I may interject......
    I know nothing about "standards testing" or metrics. But.......
    if I might use Underwriters Laboratory as an example..........to me has always been a gold standard stamp or label for a device for "safety".
    Didn't mean the thing would never break, but you knew it was tested and "safe" to use at least. standard criteria was met.

    Now, UL never told you something was "best". they simply told you it passed their criteria. every device was tested the same way. no opinion.

    Opinions and good, better, best are for review sites and Consumer reports.

    80 plus doesn't tell you good, better or best. simply that something complies to their standards.

    This company seems a little shaky to me, frankly I don't care what they say.
     
  25. Sith'ari

    Sith'ari Gawd

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    -The character of a person can be seen through his work. And as i said earlier, you won't find reviews that are more thorough and more complete than Aris's (*untill now at least) . His expertise in the field can guarantee the quality of his work at Cybenetic's labs as well.
    -Also: I have a question for the author of this article which is Paul if i'm not mistaken:
    I'm extremely surprised by the fact that he didn't take into consideration at his closing thoughts, the popularity that these new Cybenetic certificates have already received by the PSU companies .
    If you check Cybenetic's database ( https://www.cybenetics.com/index.php?option=database ) , you will see that Corsair, Seasonic, Coolermaster, Thermaltake, EVGA and others, have already tested lot of their PSUs using Cybenetic's evaluation.
    In my opinion the PSU companies themselves are the most appropriate to judge whether Cybenetic has something more to offer at the PSU field than the previous 80 plus standard, because they are the ones who give their money.
    (*and noone wants to throw away money for no reason! :pompous: )
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  26. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] Admin Staff Member

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    I understand your job is to make Cybernetics reviews look as good as possible in order to grow your business, but I believe you may have missed the issues that were raised by your answers to the questions we asked that we addressed in the editorial. I would encourage you to take a look at some of those issues because you aren't doing anything to fix the issues with 80 Plus like you said you were. For instance, your comment that Cybenetics clearly wins because of number of loads is at beast marketing speak. You may measure 1600 data points or 3000 or however many (since you have no standard testing routine) and then make up the remaining data points (interpolation IS making up data even if it is an accepted practice because you DID NOT measure that data) but that turns out to be no better than 80 Plus as was shown. As such, you are just producing more data not useful data. In doing so, you are burning time and the money of your investors while not providing a tangible benefit for the work for users.

    I would also like to make something clear. We did not unclearly depict ANYTHING about the Cybenetics ETA program. Everything presented in the article were your quotes and then commentary about your quotes. We did not address EVERY aspect of ETA because we did not ask questions about every aspect of ETA. You have a multitude of platforms which you have not been shy about using to market the great aspects of ETA. We simply looked at some (not all) of the issues that we saw with the ETA program from your answers.

    If you are interested in fixing your issues I can help you understand where and what your fundamental issues are today if the examples already outlined were unclear. Just let me know.
     
  27. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] Admin Staff Member

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    Why would they be the best to judge? They send a check, they get a shiny logo to put on a box. The more logo's the better your product looks. It is just another marketing tool.
     
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  28. Sith'ari

    Sith'ari Gawd

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    -Why would they be the best to judge? Apparently, because just like i said it's their money, and they must have a good reason to give them away. (*After all, Cybenetics would have been an unknown company if they weren't backed from the PSU industry.)
    You state that it's only for marketing, but my opinion is that such a statement can not be considered objective without any data proving it (*specifically, you must have contacted all the PSU companies, and ask them verify your claim in order for it to be considered as accurate and not subjective). After all, you mentioned many times at the closing thoughts of this article, that in your reviews you express your subjective opinion. (*And Aris also has the right to have a subjective opinion, just like you, so, objectively speaking, we have 2 subjective opinions that conflict with each other!! ;) )

    -Also, let's assume that you are correct and all this, is done for marketing. This means, that the PSU companies had also embraced the previous 80plus standard / logo only for marketing reasons as well , right? May i ask if you have stated -(*with the certainty you are stating today)- such a thing when you were reviewing the 80plus standard back then?
    [ P.S. Lastly, if you check the database, you will witness that from the 89 PSUs that were tested so far, only 9 of them were rewarded with ETA- A, while all the other units were rated with B, C , or D. So, apparently, these are very strict tests, which allow only the best PSUs to be rewarded with an A or an A+ (*zero so far!! ) certification, and ultimatelly , that is very good for the customer who buys the PSU. The same applies for Cybenetics's certifications regarding PSU's noise, which so far there is NO similar certification at the PSU market ]
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  29. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Please explain to me exactly who/what does own the company? Who is your immediate superior? How do I get in touch with them? I would like to contact them with some questions.

    So you are a full time employee? Contractor? Profit sharing?

    Given that you are still writing PSU reviews, I think these are very pertinent questions some of which I would usually not ask, but given the conflict of interest issues here, this is a bit different situation.

    I find it odd that the Chief Testing Engineer would be handling every single one of the PR duties at a company looking to set new standards and certifications for the entire globe.
     
  30. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    That is not an assumption. I have been in this industry for a decade and I can 100% tell you that 80 Plus is only used for the marketing that comes with it.
     
  31. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] Admin Staff Member

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    Yeah, marketing. It's a fixed cost marketing item. What other purpose would it have? It is not an actual certification from a standards granting body with any requirements for compliance. So, you get a shiny badge to go on your box that says something about an award. Ever notice how the real standards and certifications like UL or TUV are buried out of the way on a product? Why is that? Because, they aren't a review that says how great a product it is. They are standards granting body approvals for meeting minimum requirements.


    May I ask if you ever bothered to read the article we wrote years ago about this? It is only linked in every single PSU review we have done for the last 6 years.
     
  32. Sith'ari

    Sith'ari Gawd

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    I was hoping for a quick answer at my question, but no problem, i'll read the article instead....
     
  33. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    I have found over the years that many times people want us to retype here exactly what has already been written. Not sure why there are issues with reading before posting...
     
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  34. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    1. No.
    2. What are they going to certify if there are not standards?
     
  35. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    I am fairly sure I have no idea what you are talking about and I am not going to site here and spend time addressing issues when you are not even aware of what you are talking about.

    As per noise tests, we do not do that because we simply do not have the resources to do it properly. We have always been up front about that.

    My point is there are NO STANDARDS to CERTIFY about noise levels.

    All of this makes me thing you do not understand how standards and certifications actually work.
     
  36. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] Admin Staff Member

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    Absolutely not. Cybenetics does not produce a reproducible, consistent, or verifiable test protocol (this is one of their other great issues). Further, as we have shown, there is no difference between 80 Plus's numbers and Cybenetics so there would be no point.
     
  37. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] Admin Staff Member

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    Energy Star and 80 Plus do not do noise testing.

    And Kyle is correct, you don't know what you are talking about.
     
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  38. Sith'ari

    Sith'ari Gawd

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    i was referring at his first comment, not the second about noise!!
     
  39. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    I am suggesting that you do not understand what a standard is and how that is certified by a third party.
     
  40. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] Admin Staff Member

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    Then quote accurately?

    Kyle is correct though.