Custom Displays

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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Feb 21, 2013
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Well, that escalated quickly.

Seriously though, this is pretty impressive. I'd be down for a few.

You don't seem to have considered return costs for the monitor - how will you factor that in?

Estimate probability of return based on industry values for monitor returns as well as defect rates for batches of the chosen panels and then compute the expected cost of each return. Should be able to get a standard error too. If the return rate is low you might have to be careful when computing standard errors for small p_hat.
Also, it will help to have a clear and fair return policy. And since the panels themselves should be covered by some kind of warranty, returns due to defect won't cost us the whole amount. And "I don't want it" returns can be sold as refurbs, if we allow that for the first run. Anyway, it is a good point and I will think about it more carefully.
 

suiken_2mieu

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Are you planning on having more than just miniDP as an input?
Also, is there going to be a scaler built in?

Having a scaler might adversely affect the price, heat output, and power consumption. I guess it depends on what board you find to run the panel.

P.S. MiniDP is cool with me, as all my video cards always have a lot of display ports. I'm also interested in making an eyefinity group with these.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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373
Are you planning on having more than just miniDP as an input?
Also, is there going to be a scaler built in?

Having a scaler might adversely affect the price, heat output, and power consumption. I guess it depends on what board you find to run the panel.

P.S. MiniDP is cool with me, as all my video cards always have a lot of display ports. I'm also interested in making an eyefinity group with these.

I would like to keep it as simple as possible. I think that might be best both from a price and general sales standpoint. Since the whole point is to run at its native resolution, I would say a scaler is out. Likely will go with displayport, since the obsession a lot of manufacturers have with supporting every legacy connection under the sun drives up costs unnecessarily and holds back progress for what matters.

Also, several people have mentioned purchasing more than one. If you had to name a number, what would you pay per display?
 

sfor

Weaksauce
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DrinkTea, I just sent you a pm!

Good summing up of key points. From what I 've read so far it being usb powered is possible, as others have done it, although I don't know if the high ppi will limit it to either usb 3 only or min dp power.

In terms of the housing I am of course 100% behind the consensus in your summary, I just want to add that rigidity of the frame should be a main consideration. And that the frame should have both custom ports so we can sell stand accessories (although that's something to think about - a few aluminum mac like stands would make this an ideal compliment to any mac set up, and seeing as this is a premium market, more or less, it will be helpful. Also note the vertical screen size in portrait matching the one in the 21.5" imac) and a standard vesa port.

As far as touch screen goes, I would think that anyone using it as a secondary screen for academic notation with a computer would just notate with the pointer and mouse, it's a gimmick to lift your hand up and touch the screen, it tires you quickly. It's another thing to use it on your lap or sitting on a chair a la tablet, but that's not going to be the use anyway. From a marketing perceptive one can educate the consumer about the problems in text clarity the added touch screen layer creates. And one only needs to take a look at the google pixel's screen to attest to this.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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DrinkTea, I just sent you a pm!

As far as touch screen goes, I would think that anyone using it as a secondary screen for academic notation with a computer would just notate with the pointer and mouse, it's a gimmick to lift your hand up and touch the screen, it tires you quickly. It's another thing to use it on your lap or sitting on a chair a la tablet, but that's not going to be the use anyway. From a marketing perceptive one can educate the consumer about the problems in text clarity the added touch screen layer creates. And one only needs to take a look at the google pixel's screen to attest to this.

In my experience, people (myself included) print out papers partially to write on them. However, I guess that would require a proper digitizer and stylus, so maybe that's farther down the road.
 

Tych-0

Gawd
Joined
Jul 7, 2010
Messages
544
If this is done, consider adding a strobe/scanning backlight mode to this.
www.blurbusters.com/category/homebrew

Traditional 120 Hz only has approximately 50% less motion blur (2x less motion blur) than 60 Hz LCD. LightBoost LCD's can have up to 92% less motion blur (12x less motion blur) than 60 Hz LCD. That's 1 pixel of motion blur where you used to get 12 pixels of motion blur, during the same speed motion. Consider the thought of doing a stroboscopic backlight modification when doing a 120 Hz mod of any factory-supplied parts (you can order LCD parts from Alibaba, etc). See Scanning Backlight FAQ as well as Zero Motion Blur FAQ.


This is exactly what I'm looking for, though it seems this thread is concentrating more on the high ppi desktop reader, perhaps we should start another thread?
 

Diverge

Gawd
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542
15.4" 1440 x 900 panels would be nice for a 27" 2560 x 1440 center panel. I've looking into it, and the parts are available on ebay, but then you'd need a decent looking enclosure. It would also be nice to turn the 1440 x 900 into 900 x 1440 natively, so you don't need to get around PLP setup for surround/eyefinity :)
 

suiken_2mieu

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I would like to keep it as simple as possible. I think that might be best both from a price and general sales standpoint. Since the whole point is to run at its native resolution, I would say a scaler is out. Likely will go with displayport, since the obsession a lot of manufacturers have with supporting every legacy connection under the sun drives up costs unnecessarily and holds back progress for what matters.

Also, several people have mentioned purchasing more than one. If you had to name a number, what would you pay per display?
I would like to buy 3. I think $300 would be a fair price, but I'd prefer $250.

This is exactly what I'm looking for, though it seems this thread is concentrating more on the high ppi desktop reader, perhaps we should start another thread?
Yeah, the products are very much inherently different. Plus this would require a lot of R&D on the scanning backlight.

15.4" 1440 x 900 panels would be nice for a 27" 2560 x 1440 center panel. I've looking into it, and the parts are available on ebay, but then you'd need a decent looking enclosure. It would also be nice to turn the 1440 x 900 into 900 x 1440 natively, so you don't need to get around PLP setup for surround/eyefinity :)
This was actually done by a user on here. But you wont actually get around PLP. Even if it looks like LLL, you still cant have different resolutions render on each monitor. It would be 2700x1440 which is a far cry from 4360x1440.
 

XoR

Gawd
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Jul 25, 2011
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834
this whole "custom monitor" thing is just pipe dream and nothing ever will be born out of it :eek:

only exception I can think of is that you made it yourself but then there wouldn't be this topic in the first place :rolleyes:
 
Joined
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961
I would be interested in 4K IPS or OLED custom displays around 27 to 32" in size.

I'm thinking some sort of open source firmware would be needed to drive these new custom displays.
 

extide

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One thing you guys need to be aware of is that LVDS is kind of going away, in favor of eDP. Notably, the Chromebook Pixel LCD Panel (the 2560x1700 one) uses eDP and NOT LVDS.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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One thing you guys need to be aware of is that LVDS is kind of going away, in favor of eDP. Notably, the Chromebook Pixel LCD Panel (the 2560x1700 one) uses eDP and NOT LVDS.

Yes, thank you for pointing this out. I just read about that earlier today and if I'm not mistaken that would actually make things easier. From what I've read an eDP connector contains a part that is pin compatible with DisplayPort plus part for power. Do you know if they sell adapters for this? If not, how difficult would it be to have one made and how much power is required for a small laptop panel?
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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I would be interested in 4K IPS or OLED custom displays around 27 to 32" in size.

I'm thinking some sort of open source firmware would be needed to drive these new custom displays.

Well, there's the sharp PN-K321.
Another alternative to that might be these: http://eqdcorp.com/clarity-monitors
Not quite the same pixel density, but 2880 x1620 at 27 inches isn't bad. There's not much information, but I called the company a few months ago and the guy I spoke to said they should be arriving in the US some time in May and are expected to cost $800-900.

If we do need firmware, would you be interested in contributing? I like the idea of it being open source.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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We're trying to contact manufacturers who could feasibly produce an eDP to DP + power adapter. Any help on this would be appreciated, especially if you have contacts with a producer or a supplier. As soon as one is available, we can demonstrate the panel hooked up to a computer and begin a funding drive/taking preorders while we design the frame. I can't see why this wouldn't be possible, since eDP is pin compatible with DP along with some additional pins for power.

It does appear someone tried something similar on another forum recently, but there's no news that they got it to work. I like to think I'm tenacious enough to find everything needed.

I would strongly encourage anyone who is interested in helping to either post here or contact me directly. I'd also like to get an idea of what demand for this product would be like.
 
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suiken_2mieu

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The User Pylon posted the article in a post here on hardforum that showed someone connecting an IPAD 3 display to a computer. It shows that eDP and DP are pin compatible and t hat there's even an adapter that you can make an interface board with. This may help.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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Thank you for that post. It is helpful in figuring out what needs to be done. It looks like it might be a little more challenging for larger panels because of increased power requirements, but this is promising. I am determined to make this happen and bring these to market.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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Thank you for your continued support!
I have been busy with research, school, and life in general. However, it is moving along!
I've been in contact with suppliers and will be ordering panels for prototypes soon.
 

rocket733

Limp Gawd
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May 4, 2006
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268
Interesting, I know others are also working on this with the LG LP129QE1 - see the ibm t221 yahoo group for details. It would also be tempting to explore the 15.4" LP154WT1 since the bigger display might be better for a desktop replacement.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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Actually, I started that thread too. Got to cover all my bases and keep things moving. Once we get this working we can explore other options. Also, keep in mind this isn't yet intended as a replacement so much as a supplement to both desktops and laptops. Thank you all again for your interest and support. I suspect that there will be more ways to get involved in the near future for those who are interested.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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We are making our way through prototyping. It works with windows and linux but there are issues with mac. If anyone has experience with os x or displays, please contact me. Your help would be greatly appreciated and I can give you a nice discount on a production unit when they're ready.
 

DrinkTea

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suiken_2mieu

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Shoot, I forgot all about this. Good thing taxes are coming. I feel like I should try to make an all in one with this. lol. Any chance for programmable edid? Or at least making 80Hz a / the standard mode.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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That sounds pretty cool. If you're interested please fill out the survey so I can get an idea of demand. I need to plan and figure out how much money I need. Hopefully we can take orders before the end of February.

Regarding 80 Hz, it probably can't be standard because it's not certain what the variability between panels is. However, I'll happily provide instructions on how to try it yourself with the caveat that you can't return it if something breaks. Do you think people would pay for something like pre-screened panels that are tested to overclock well?
 

suiken_2mieu

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That sounds pretty cool. If you're interested please fill out the survey so I can get an idea of demand. I need to plan and figure out how much money I need. Hopefully we can take orders before the end of February.

Regarding 80 Hz, it probably can't be standard because it's not certain what the variability between panels is. However, I'll happily provide instructions on how to try it yourself with the caveat that you can't return it if something breaks. Do you think people would pay for something like pre-screened panels that are tested to overclock well?

It's possible, I know myself, I would rather take the gamble then pay for an inspection.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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Thanks for the feedback.
Also, I should mention that all of the displays will be VESA mountable and we'll have an adapter that lets you use three lined up on one mount, since they're so light.
 

sverreerik

n00b
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Aug 19, 2013
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Oh man this looks great.

How would you describe the experience of using it as a desktop display?

What levels of input lag are you seeing?

What's the subpixel layout on these?

EDIT: If you guys did a 2x2 single vesa mountable 5120x3400 display that would be amazing.
 
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Two things keep me from pulling the trigger on this...

1. I want G-Sync/FreeSync

2. I want something no smaller than 27"+
 

sverreerik

n00b
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Two things keep me from pulling the trigger on this...

1. I want G-Sync/FreeSync

2. I want something no smaller than 27"+

Since it's using an Embedded Display Port to Display Port adapter, theoretically you should be able to get freesync running on it once Display Port 1.2a or 1.3 to eDP adaptors exist.
 

cirthix

Limp Gawd
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Aug 30, 2006
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To answer some specs:

12.85"
IPS
2560*1700
RGB subpixels (not pentile)
8bit color
400cd/m² (from the panel datasheet, have not measured with our boards)
constrast ratio is better than 600:1, though 800:1 is listed as the typical value in the datasheet

PWM rate is 16KHz and it can do 100% dutycycle (meaning constant on).

My sample could overclock to 80Hz. I have devised a way to modify the panels to autodetect at higher rates (80/75/72/60 were the four modes in my special edid), though I'm not sure if DrinkTea will offer this service.


USB powered (note: kind of over-spec, might have to use one of those 'charger' style ports, though it worked fine with the couple of laptops that I've tested)
DP driven. No scaler, autodetects to native res. Data goes directly to the panel without any buffering. Freesync may or may not work, it is untested.

The device has three buttons. On/off, brt+, brt-. Very simple. No OSD or other adjustments.
 
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alamone

Gawd
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Sep 30, 2008
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589
Great, I'm already kinda doing something like this with ipad screens and DP adapters (2048x1536), but this little panel is even better.
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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Oh man this looks great.

How would you describe the experience of using it as a desktop display?

What levels of input lag are you seeing?

What's the subpixel layout on these?

EDIT: If you guys did a 2x2 single vesa mountable 5120x3400 display that would be amazing.

We are thinking about some adapters to hold multiple displays aligned together. They would be cheap and easy to use since they're so light and can all but put on one VESA mount. The bezels should be pretty thin as is, so I'm not sure it's worth it to make a separate case. Once we have a few I'm also going to test out MST hubs to make the experience of using multiple ones better.

I haven't used one as a desktop monitor for an extended period of time, but I'd imagine it's a lot like the T221 except smoother because of the refresh rate. I think the ideal use cases for these are with a laptop, as as a secondary display or using at least three together.
 

Randomoneh

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Oct 12, 2012
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I'm interested in larger panels, whether they were meant to be used in large laptops or actual PC monitors doesn't matter. Is it possible make an order from LG? Have you tried contacting them?
 

sverreerik

n00b
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Maybe you'd be interested more in the T221 mod Cirthix did a while back if you want a larger display
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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If you're interested in a T221, let me know.
But as far as larger panels, that would be nice but that's now how it works. I think the only reason these panels we're using are even available is because the Pixel was a flop. It seems a lot of companies have exclusive deals on certain panels for a while. LG wasn't even helpful when I was trying to order these panels direct from them.

Also, the closest a desktop display ever came to the DPI of this monitor was the T221, and this is a good 15% higher.
 

sverreerik

n00b
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Also, the closest a desktop display ever came to the DPI of this monitor was the T221, and this is a good 15% higher.

I really hope windows 8.2 brings about some better High-DPI features because I would love to be pushing a display like this
 

Mr.Pixel

Limp Gawd
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138
Few basic questions:
Does the display use PWM at any brightness levels?
What kind of coating is used?
How thick are the bezels (distance between the illuminated area and the outer edge of the casing)?
What is the color gamut?
Does the display require significant calibration to achieve accurate colors (e.g. any color casts)?
Are you planning on offering any type of warranty?
 

DrinkTea

Limp Gawd
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373
I really hope windows 8.2 brings about some better High-DPI features because I would love to be pushing a display like this

Few basic questions:
Does the display use PWM at any brightness levels?
What kind of coating is used?
How thick are the bezels (distance between the illuminated area and the outer edge of the casing)?
What is the color gamut?
Does the display require significant calibration to achieve accurate colors (e.g. any color casts)?
Are you planning on offering any type of warranty?

1. I haven't checked yet and can't find any information on this. I'll test it and get back to you.
2. According to the data sheet, ATW polarizer and hard coating. It's not grainy but not super glossy either (in my subjective experience).
3. Varies by side. Not finalized for the assembled display yet. For the panel though, the distance from the active area to the mesh on the sides is about 1.7mm all around. Then that to the edge is:
~3mm top and left, ~5 on the right, ~7 on the bottom. But on the bottom there's extra room for the cable coming out.
4. 65% NTSC according to the data sheet. From what I can tell, pretty normal for laptop displays.
5. I don't know. Haven't tried it yet. It looked pretty good to me, but if you want to use it for more color sensitive work I can look into this.
6. The panels themselves generally come with some kind of warranty, so if you get one that's dead (although it will be tested) I'll take care of it. I need to figure out what the specific terms are for panel warranties and decide how to handle the other parts.
 

suiken_2mieu

2[H]4U
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Just wondering, is this panel IPS? I'm wondering because I'd probably want to setup a 5100x2560 (3x1 Portrait) setup.

Also, if anyone is interested:
Single Screen
12.85" Screen
2560 x 1700
10.75"x 7.125"

1.5058823529411764705882352941176 (Aspect Ratio)


Portrait Eyefinity
23.875" Screen
5100 x 2560
21.375" x 10.75"

1.988372093023255813953488372093 (Aspect Ratio)
 
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