CS Degree - In over my head?

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KingSmoth

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 2, 2006
Messages
508
Hello everyone,
I started college in 1999 as a CS major, taking my core classes along with the required basic computer courses, Visual Basic and C++. I have a long history as a procrastinator, but it was never an issue for me until two years into the major. In short, I failed Calculus and C++ the first time I took them, and finished with a D the second time around. Calculus just never clicked with me, while I found C++ to be utterly boring, mostly due to the awful professor. I rarely attended class.
I ended up changing majors and finished with a Bachelors degree in TV/Cinema in 2005. Changing majors was the best thing for me because I kicked my poor attendance and procrastination habits, finding something that I loved doing and was very good at(video editing).
Now, I find myself at a crossroads - my passion for computers and film has fallen by the wayside, as I went into law enforcement out of college. I'm registering to return to college this summer in an effort to obtain that long-abandoned CS degree, but I have to wonder if I'm in over my head. I haven't taken a math course in nine years, and Calculus baffled me(although I admit I hardly tried). My old professor(currently head of the Math/CS dept) told us on the first day of class years ago that Calculus is something you either understand or don't. Will it help me to go back and take Precalc before attempting Calculus yet again, and is this something that I can ultimately learn after two failures already? My work ethic is vastly improved, but I don't know what kind of math to expect beyond Calculus, other than "a lot".
I have an interest in working on my own movies/shorts/animations, creating 3d models, game environments and programming. Starting anew in some kind of tech job would be great for me.
Maybe I'm trying to do too much, I don't know. If anyone could chime in with a realistic outlook on my chances against Calculus, as well as what I can expect out of future math and programming courses(level of math involved), that would be a great help. My confidence is currently cowering around the corner from Overwhelming Odds.
Thanks!
 
If you haven't already made your choice, I would recommend keeping your day job. My advice would be to do some research and figure out why you want a CS degree. Do you want to design/develop websites? Static or dynamic? Database development? Network administration? Server applications? You specifically mentioned 3D development and game development - is that the only reason you want a CS degree at this point?

With all the (free) resources available to you, a CS degree is definitely not required to develop great software! You could go to google.com, search for some articles/tutorials to assist you with setting up your local PC as an application server and developing some small apps. Continue modifying that app and adding more features and see if it's something you really enjoy! After a few months, you might already have enough experience to apply for a junior developer position or internship.

Now, if game development is really what you want to do, you could buy a game like Half Life 2 and try modding it. Check out http://www.moddb.com/games/half-life-2/tutorials for some starting points. There are tutorials for creating 3D models, textures, modding the game mechanics or even total game mods.

The main reason I'm advising caution at this point is that you might continue to hate calculus, C++, data structures, etc...perhaps it's due to the theoretical nature of CS classes at many universities? Perhaps a more hands-on approach to learning game development would suit you better? It would certainly be cheaper! And, on the topic of money, I assume you still have student loans from your first (6?) years of college. Tuition has gone up significantly over the last few years, and the last thing you need is another $20k+ in student loan debt!

On the other hand, you mentioned that you have "matured" a lot in the last 5-6 years - skipping class, not doing your homework every night (and getting help when needed!) are some guaranteed ways to have a miserable time in college. If you're past all that, then you might be more successful than last time... but based on the limited information in your original post, I'm not convinced a CS degree is the best way for you to achieve your goals.
 
CS degree is like a cake: one part coding, one part theory (calculus, discrete, sometimes probability) and a sprinkle of software engineering.

Some CS people who graduate never have to use derivatives, integrals, power series, divisibility of primes, big o notation, and all that ever again. They usually work with "business logic". So, website backend design and things of that ilk.

Some CS people who are working on mathematically intense stuff like trying to come up with an efficient algorithm for a particular task or they're working on a project that is inherently math heavy (maybe for US Army's Picatinny Arsenal, three letter agencies, companies that are defense contractors, NASA, Google, Microsoft, Xerox, they all might use that stuff from day to day, depending on what project you're working on.

Overall, a degree or competency in CS requires high level of abstract thinking in terms of different programing paradigms, implementation of tasks via code and also in the sense of the mathematics part such as discrete mathematics and calculus. Both branches of math which are very abstract and worth knowing, but they can be hard to grasp when you have weak algebra knowledge or not much interest.

But if you want to create software, you don't need a degree.
 
Sounds like you just didn't stick to it 12 years ago. The real question isn't whether you're in over your head. The question should be: are you willing to really apply yourself to figure it all out.

That is BS about "you get it or you don't". Just study hard, keep working on the fundamentals, and you can do calculus.

Check out computer engineering, too. Less theory than CS, and (IMO) more "hands on" with hardware and how things work.
 
Hi King,
Well the difficulty of the CS degree varies greatly based on where you take it. Some colleges are extremely math centric, others not so much. An easy tell (often, but not always) is if the CS building and the MATH building are one in the same. If that's the case, expect a lot of math! It seems to me that you had a tough time the first time around, and while your actions at the time were surely a recipe for disaster, it's possible the subject matter or classes are what drove you to that point. I would say that the lesson to be learned from all of that is that maybe CS is just not for you.

Really, at this point you have to decide for yourself whether you want to put forth the extra effort and dedication to get this degree. Do I think it's possible for you to pursue and complete the CS degree? Absolutely. Do I think pre-calc would be of benefit to someone already struggling with it? For sure. Do I think you're in over your head? Yes, thats why you've got to play catch-up. Just remember that more likely than not, you will have to devote more effort to your studies than your class-room peers due to your possible deficiency in the area.

Considering you say your passion for computers has waned I don't personally see why you'd want to bother investing the time. Perhaps you would find more enjoyment just leaving it as a hobby. Additionally your distaste for C++ kind of leads me to believe maybe it's just not for you. There's always going to be crappy professors, but they shouldn't completely shut you down. I'm also not saying its the only language, but it sure is popular.

Regarding future math courses you can most likely expect some discrete math, calculus, and some sort of binary arithmetic thrown in. Beyond that it's just too program dependent to say. I can say though that it makes life in computer science easier to be proficient in these things. At least that's been my experience.

All that said, keep your chin up, and I wish you success in whatever avenue you choose to pursue.
 
One thing to look into is whether or not your credits are still good. Some schools have them expire after 5-7 years. If that's the case, you'll be starting from scratch this time around & will have nothing that really ties you to finishing your degree - you could go study anything.
 
The question isn't whether it's over your head; it's whether your willing to put in the work now.

I've been out of college for ~4 years now; and i'd have done it completely differently now...
 
The mathematical rigor of the CS program depends highly on which school you're planning on going to. Top CS programs are heavily theoretical and stress thorough algorithmic analysis, which often requires calculus, probability, and some basic discrete math. Something I've noticed between various CS programs is that some are focused more on how to use a programming language and others focus on the real essence of solving problems (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY).

If you're really serious about CS, you should be more concerned about how much you're willing to dedicate your time to study it and whether you want to learn how to solve problems or learn how to build someone else's solutions (read: Create/modify algorithms or program).

That isn't to say that programming is easy, but programming is very much just (at least for me) the mechanical operation of typing up some code to implement an algorithm. The real meat of my thinking was in the algorithm.
 
KingSmoth said:
In short, I failed Calculus and C++ the first time I took them, and finished with a D the second time around. Calculus just never clicked with me, while I found C++ to be utterly boring, mostly due to the awful professor. I rarely attended class.!
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stay away.
 
I know many claim that in order to be a good programmer/software developer you must also have a strong foundation in computer science but in reality there are many good ones without much grounding in advanced math and theory. I did pretty good in those classes but there was alot I never got the big picture with and how it connects back to software implementation and lets just say I never had the need to pull out my old math and theory books at my current software development job.
So I guess what I'm getting at is, depending on what type of job you are looking for, all that math and theory stuff may not be something you need to get all worked up over if you are not good very at it.
 
Thanks for all of your input thus far! I have a lot to take into consideration.
I should note that my passion for computers and film didn't wane, I've just spent my years since graduation working full-time as a deputy and part-time as a restaurant manager, which has greatly impacted my "fun time".
I could make a career out of law enforcement - I enjoy it, but I don't love it. Plenty of interesting things happen with the criminal element, but I greatly prefer storyboarding, editing, photoshop, repeatedly tearing down and building my systems, troubleshooting, etc. I have always held an interest in animation, 3d modeling and game development/design, which is what has led me to learning programming, with an obvious progression to higher-level math.
I was in my late teens when I farted around and stupidly lost my scholarship. Nearing 30 now, and things are different(I'm paying my way, for one). I'm willing to put in the work to accomplish my goal and hopefully progress into a tech field. I grew up hearing "you need a college degree to get a great job", which is why I'm so focused on obtaining one in CS now. It seems that every position I look at, whether at a hospital, agency or game company, "computer science degree or equivalent experience required" seems to pop up.
I contacted the registrar today and found out that my prior credits are still valid, so I only need 53 credit hours to obtain the CS degree. I e-mailed the advisor of the CS/Math department, so hopefully I'll have a meeting with him this week.
I printed out the course guideline: after Calculus the only math courses to take are Statistics and one course out of Linear Algebra/Combinatorics/Abstract Algebra/Probability and Statistics/Numerical Analysis/Theory of Graphs.
After C++ there's Ethics, Math Structures for CS, Operating Systems, Assembly Programming, Data Structures, Databases, Applied Theory of Computing, Software Engineering and then the capstone project.
This has been a long post, so I'll wrap it up by saying I've spent the last few days going through my Visual C++ 6.0 coursework(from 2001). I understand that things have changed(v8.0 now), but it doesn't seem to be drastic. Am I wasting my time getting a jump start on my fall semester C++ class with this(if I enroll for it), or can I continue and hopefully come to a decent understanding of the language and make the minor adjustments when I get there?
 
86 5.0L said:
stay away.
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I agree.

I bombed Java the first semester I had it in grad school. I had a little java way way back, and I did great one semester and bombed another. I had a D+, I did not even do the last project correctly. I just didn't open the book, I didn't write programs, and I didn't watch my lectures (i am doing distance learning until fall of this year). I had to retake Java 1 to remain in my program, the second time I took the class, I got a 98. I studied, watched the lectures and practiced the coding. I have Java 2 right now, and I am getting over a 100% in it. I can now take C++ for programmers, which is one class instead of two. The same policy i used last semester I used this semester, I watch the lectures, I practice examples, and I read the notes I have from my professor.

i have learned that programming is hands on, you need to practice it almost daily. you need to read or study the material as well. Write code is in the same vein as doing a science experiment in biology or physics, it helps to reinforce the material you are reading.

That being said I would NOT repeat the class for a third time. Your transcripts will show the highest grade, but that took it took you 3 times to get a higher grade.

Generally, you either get programming or you don't. When I didn't get programming, it was because I didn't open the book, or practice.
 
Assembly Programming is a bitch, it is worse than C++. I had it, and dropped it due to having to take it via distance learning with a professor who doesn't speak English clearly, and his super long homework. I didn't even need assembly for my program, but I took it anyway.

Just wait to you have to do if conditions without using IF, or subtraction without using the minus sign. Assembly is essentially how the processor does programming.

My problem was going back and forth between CS and IS. I finally settled on IS, since I would have 6 classes less. I would also have $12,000 less in loans.
 
tontork said:
That being said I would NOT repeat the class for a third time. Your transcripts will show the highest grade, but that took it took you 3 times to get a higher grade.

Generally, you either get programming or you don't. When I didn't get programming, it was because I didn't open the book, or practice.
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I completely disagree. Get it or you don't? I call bs. It's whether your willing to open the book and actually do the work to "get it". Programming isn't easy; but it's not something mystical either that you have to be born into; and the "muggles" will never get. And after your first job once you have real job experience; will employers even look at your transcripts? I've done interviewing of fresh college grads; and honestly; grades aren't everything; interviewing well is the key.
 
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KingSmoth said:
Thanks for all of your input thus far! I have a lot to take into consideration.
I should note that my passion for computers and film didn't wane, I've just spent my years since graduation working full-time as a deputy and part-time as a restaurant manager, which has greatly impacted my "fun time".
I could make a career out of law enforcement - I enjoy it, but I don't love it. Plenty of interesting things happen with the criminal element, but I greatly prefer storyboarding, editing, photoshop, repeatedly tearing down and building my systems, troubleshooting, etc. I have always held an interest in animation, 3d modeling and game development/design, which is what has led me to learning programming, with an obvious progression to higher-level math.
I was in my late teens when I farted around and stupidly lost my scholarship. Nearing 30 now, and things are different(I'm paying my way, for one). I'm willing to put in the work to accomplish my goal and hopefully progress into a tech field. I grew up hearing "you need a college degree to get a great job", which is why I'm so focused on obtaining one in CS now. It seems that every position I look at, whether at a hospital, agency or game company, "computer science degree or equivalent experience required" seems to pop up.
I contacted the registrar today and found out that my prior credits are still valid, so I only need 53 credit hours to obtain the CS degree. I e-mailed the advisor of the CS/Math department, so hopefully I'll have a meeting with him this week.
I printed out the course guideline: after Calculus the only math courses to take are Statistics and one course out of Linear Algebra/Combinatorics/Abstract Algebra/Probability and Statistics/Numerical Analysis/Theory of Graphs.
After C++ there's Ethics, Math Structures for CS, Operating Systems, Assembly Programming, Data Structures, Databases, Applied Theory of Computing, Software Engineering and then the capstone project.
This has been a long post, so I'll wrap it up by saying I've spent the last few days going through my Visual C++ 6.0 coursework(from 2001). I understand that things have changed(v8.0 now), but it doesn't seem to be drastic. Am I wasting my time getting a jump start on my fall semester C++ class with this(if I enroll for it), or can I continue and hopefully come to a decent understanding of the language and make the minor adjustments when I get there?
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I think you need to make sure this is something you really want because a love for gaming, building your own computers, and 3d modeling does not mean much on if you will enjoy a career in computer science and programming. And game programming is a pretty tough one as far as the fun quickly going away and eventually getting burned out. Also its a very tough field to get your foot in the door. A CS degree alone will get you no where unless you're from one of those top recognized schools for game development. Not only will you need to start going to class and reading your books, you will need to get some good networking connections, join internships, and get your name on some game projects worth showing to a studio.
 
if you think C++ is boring/hard wait till you get to the lower-level languages. I watched a lot of noobs flame out half way through the semester
 
Worminater said:
I completely disagree. Get it or you don't? I call bs. It's whether your willing to open the book and actually do the work to "get it".
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Right on. Calculus doesn't click with you -- you click with calculus. KingSmoth can change degrees, but he'll probably just blame the professors in his new courses, as well.
 
mikeblas said:
Right on. Calculus doesn't click with you -- you click with calculus. KingSmoth can change degrees, but he'll probably just blame the professors in his new courses, as well.
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I guess you missed the part where I credited myself with most of the blame. I was a terrible student - I didn't really try, and C++ was the worst because I didn't try and the professor was awful. No motivation, boring class(when I attended), don't pass Go, don't collect CS degree. I see nothing wrong with casting partial blame on terrible professors, and many students would agree with me on this particular one. I'm glad that there are now multiple offerings of C++, because at the time he was the only one.
 
KingSmoth said:
I guess you missed the part where I credited myself with most of the blame. I was a terrible student - I didn't really try, and C++ was the worst because I didn't try and the professor was awful. No motivation, boring class(when I attended), don't pass Go, don't collect CS degree. I see nothing wrong with casting partial blame on terrible professors, and many students would agree with me on this particular one. I'm glad that there are now multiple offerings of C++, because at the time he was the only one.
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this is why you should stay away.

CS requires independent thinking, problem solving and analysis. If you have a passion for CS/programming its as easy as picking up the book, reading how to do the basics then doing whatever problem is assigned.

The teacher should not be part of the learning experience, this is big boy school without any hand holding.
 
Lot of professor hate in this thread.

Your chance of success in a field are a function of many things; hard work, intelligence, and good mentors may all be significant factors.
 
You cannot blame your lack of success in achieving your degree on your professors. Everybody has had poor professors.

When I took Calculus I, the professor I had was horrible for me. I'm not naturally inclined to math to begin with, and her method of instruction was to give each student a worksheet and have them plot limits and derivatives in Mathematica. After I failed an exam, I figured out that I had to teach myself Calculus if I wanted to pass the class. I was working at Wal~Mart at the time. On my breaks, I studied from the book and tried problems. On my lunch breaks, I studied from the book and tried problems. When I got off of work, I studied from the book and tried problems. I probably spent 4 hours of every day studying just Calculus. Eventually, I learned enough to pull my D up to a B and pass the class.

When I took Calculus II, I had one of the strictest math professors on campus, but he covered the topic thoroughly. He wouldn't let us carry all of the identities into our exams, and despite my best efforts I couldn't memorize all of them. I would do all the setup work on the problems, write down what transformation had to take place and what method of integration to use, and then stop. He gave me half credit on every problem. Consequently, I failed the first exam and mid-term. By the time the final came around, I had memorized the identiies and got an easy A on the exam. I passd the class with a C.

Calc III and Linear Algebra have similar stories for me. I got a B and an A respectively, largely because of a good friend who was able to point out the flaws in my work to help me learn what I was doing wrong.

The math classes will be a lot of work if you're not naturally gifted in math (and even if you are naturally gifted with math, it will be a lot of work if you want to get all you can out of the class). You'll either dig your heels in and pass, or you will give up and fail. Those are the only possible outcomes.

As a side note, Edsger Dijkstra (famous computer scientist) once said: "Computer Science has as much to do with computers as astronomy has to do with telescopes." The point for me brining this up is that CS might not be what you think it is. If you want a CS degree, you've got to get past this math. If you don't want a CS degree, or if you don't think it's worth your effort, then you don't need to worry about this.
 
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Success in anything requires interest. Strong interest makes anything easy. The hard part is getting the interest. Someone with a strong interest in programming isn't going to be waiting to learn in school. If you want to learn C++, think of a simple app and write the code for it. Then move on to more complicated projects. Hack other people's code to modify their programs (open source!). You will be interested and motivated if you're working to achieve an end that you're interested in.
 
nameless_centurian said:
You cannot blame your lack of success in achieving your degree on your professors. Everybody has had poor professors.
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Although I believe that a poor professor makes for a poor learning environment, you(and others) make a valid point in regards to taking the initiative to learn the material. I never did apply myself in such a manner, I simply gave in and moved on. Congrats on your success in completing those courses.
I'm able to study during downtime at work, so I have brought my texts out of retirement to begin anew with algebra, calculus and C++. Registration is six months away, so time will tell how I fare with my efforts in that timeframe.
The head of the Math/CS department e-mailed me this morning about scheduling a placement exam. When I took the exam in 1999 I was placed in Honors Calculus II, but chose to start with College Algebra. Seems so funny now...
 
KingSmoth said:
Although I believe that a poor professor makes for a poor learning environment, you(and others) make a valid point in regards to taking the initiative to learn the material. I never did apply myself in such a manner, I simply gave in and moved on. Congrats on your success in completing those courses.
I'm able to study during downtime at work, so I have brought my texts out of retirement to begin anew with algebra, calculus and C++. Registration is six months away, so time will tell how I fare with my efforts in that timeframe.
The head of the Math/CS department e-mailed me this morning about scheduling a placement exam. When I took the exam in 1999 I was placed in Honors Calculus II, but chose to start with College Algebra. Seems so funny now...
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It all boils down to your work ethic. You've said it's improved since then. It's part of maturity and accepting life for what it is: against you from the beginning. Some have it easier than others, but we all have stuggles at some point with something.

The placement exam is an outstanding idea. If you place very well, ask the head of the department to give you an older Calc I exam that won't be used anymore, or perhaps some problems from the textbook. If the result is that you are clueless, then take a Pre-Calc course. If you are rusty, Take Calc I. If you fly through it with no trouble, ask for an exam or problems from Calc II and make the same decision.
 
nameless_centurian said:
It all boils down to your work ethic. You've said it's improved since then. It's part of maturity and accepting life for what it is: against you from the beginning. Some have it easier than others, but we all have stuggles at some point with something.

The placement exam is an outstanding idea. If you place very well, ask the head of the department to give you an older Calc I exam that won't be used anymore, or perhaps some problems from the textbook. If the result is that you are clueless, then take a Pre-Calc course. If you are rusty, Take Calc I. If you fly through it with no trouble, ask for an exam or problems from Calc II and make the same decision.
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I would agree with this. Go back and take College algebra if you have to. I am reading up on assembly programming than, taking the class. I might have to take another course before I take the assembly class, if I decide to take it.
 
KingSmoth said:
I see nothing wrong with casting partial blame on terrible professors,
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I do. Until you realize that your outcomes are 100% your own responsibility, then you're going to have a hard time being successful at anything.

Having a bad professor might have made a good result harder to attain, but skipping classes and not doing work made it impossible for you to be successful. There are hundreds of books on C++, lots of websites on the language, many schools have their lectures and syllabus online for their courses. You can get tutoring, or ask for help in forums. You could have done any of those things to help offset a professor you didn't like, but you simply didn't do any of them.
 
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I agree, the professors I claim to be poor at the ones where I felt like I didn't learn anything from them and had to resort to the internet or books to learn anything / pass the class.

Like for network programming the teacher gave us a 5 minute tutorial on winsock function calls and then expected us to write multi-threaded networked programs from just that. He spent the rest of the class rambling about routers, switches, cables, satellites and cisco related stuff that had nothing to do with programming. So I consider him a bad teacher, but from that class I learned a lot about network programming because I had to do so much research and learning on my own in order to pass the class. But I don't feel like I learned much from him and I consider him a bad teacher because of it. Other teachers taught so well I never even refer to the book. Like my current physics and graphics teachers, I have a massive physics book that I haven't opened once this semester, and graphics he doesn't even have any required books. Just a few OpenGL references because that's what we're programming in. He goes over all the math and algorithms in class on a whiteboard, and then tests us on it so we know how to do it by hand before going into an assignment to program it. But they're both good teachers and if you show up in class and pay attention you learn everything from them. In fact both have taught me a bit more about calculus that I didn't understand before, because calculus was needed for both classes.

I'm also finding out that Calculus is used a lot more than I would have thought initially, along with a lot of linear algebra. I feel like going back through my calculus book because I don't think I learned it well enough the first time, the class was just curved so much that I passed with a B-. But both show up in Physics and Graphics a lot so it also depends on what you're trying to do I guess. If you really want to understand the concepts behind graphics / physics I think you have to have a good math foundation. Otherwise you're just taking people's word for it. I see a lot of people copying / pasting code for graphics, and because they don't understand the underlying math or the concept itself they don't know why it's broken, they just sit and stare and try to copy + paste more code around. But once you understand the math/concept it's fairly easy to implement in code, granted if you understand the language you're programming in well enough that it doesn't block you from just implementing the math/concept.

Sorta rambling, but I'm going for my Bachelor's in CS right now... only 1.5 years through it with 60 credits of 154 done... (Taking 16 right now).
 
I think it all comes down to is CS something you REALLY want to do? After this semester I will have 2 more of my core classes and a few business classes left. The last couple years I've been feeling like this isn't really what I want to do.
I can sympathize with the crappy teacher scenario. We only have 2 instructors for our CS classes and for all but 2 of my classes I've had the one that doesn't know his rear from his head. I'm doing alright, but between dreading going to class with him and not enjoying the work I tend to get behind on my assignments a lot. Of course, in the end I am responsible for how I do, but these are definitely factors that make a difference.

Last semester I ended up adding a double major with MIS. I was already doing a business track in CS and I had some extra classes so I'll only need 30 more hours or less. The MIS department is a complete 180, at my school at least. People actually listen to what you're saying and go out of their way to help you out instead of just assuming they know everything already.

I'm more of a hands on, practical person. I want to implement something and see it working. I'm not all that interested in programming either. CS just doesn't seem to grab me. Maybe if I had an instructor that made it interesting it would help, maybe not. I think having both degrees will make me more flexible when I figure out what I really want to do.
 
The Alternate Alternate path is the one I took in college: Memorize material in my calc/discrete math classes, and then by the time I graduate forget everything you learned :\

I have always been more interested in the software engineering aspect however. For 3 years I had a software engineering position that required some basic calculus/trig/statistics, but since that job I have very rarely used much of that.

I think a lot of people get into CS just because they like computers and want to do IT work or something, which is completely unnecessary. Sure, you could get an IT job with a CS degree, but the people who switch majors from CS are often the ones who a) Want to do IT or b) Want to "create" video games.

PointandClick said:
I think it all comes down to is CS something you REALLY want to do? After this semester I will have 2 more of my core classes and a few business classes left. The last couple years I've been feeling like this isn't really what I want to do.
I can sympathize with the crappy teacher scenario. We only have 2 instructors for our CS classes and for all but 2 of my classes I've had the one that doesn't know his rear from his head. I'm doing alright, but between dreading going to class with him and not enjoying the work I tend to get behind on my assignments a lot. Of course, in the end I am responsible for how I do, but these are definitely factors that make a difference.

Last semester I ended up adding a double major with MIS. I was already doing a business track in CS and I had some extra classes so I'll only need 30 more hours or less. The MIS department is a complete 180, at my school at least. People actually listen to what you're saying and go out of their way to help you out instead of just assuming they know everything already.

I'm more of a hands on, practical person. I want to implement something and see it working. I'm not all that interested in programming either. CS just doesn't seem to grab me. Maybe if I had an instructor that made it interesting it would help, maybe not. I think having both degrees will make me more flexible when I figure out what I really want to do.
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Your CS department does not sound typical. Where I went to college, CS and MIS were completely different majors (CS is college of engineering, MIS is college of business).
 
Do this

Check out Google and learn how to make a webpage. Do that. Then set up a server and get it to run your webpage. Start playing with the server side code to make your page actually do stuff. Now work client side and make it do more stuff.

Things wont be looking too far up if you can't get pass this. You need to want to do something, and (imo) making you're own webpage is a good start.

Web stuff is what got me into programming. Seeing my work function over a network was awesome. Now I'm balls deep in server side crap and I can't get out, but I love it.

Oh and this is all while I'm studying during my final year of CS. It's not about getting the grades, its about having a passion for this. Muggles is a good way to put it. It seriously takes someone special to enjoy thinking about, writing, and staring at code.

And unless you have some great idea to make a game around or you have a serious passion, I'd stay away from game development. I just don't hear many good stories from friends/colleagues who go into the business.
 
I suppose in many cases an actual CS degree gets your resume a look when you apply for positions and stuff. I can also see how a classroom environment and access to a physical instructor to answer questions could be a big help. But there's nothing that says you have to have that CS degree to be a programmer/developer.

You have the media experience, and I know of a few devs who started with art/design degrees, even philosophy and are pretty well respected developers in their field. Most just happen to be Flash/Flex devs, if that means anything. Maybe you see a need or can work on filling current needs in your field. I don't know, maybe there's some development for rendering of video or something you could look at trying or tools to process audio, just throwing stuff out there.

I'm a geographer with no CS degree, but I pretty much program full time now. My field is a bit niche, but I can transfer lots of that knowledge to other areas. So maybe if you like your current industry, you can look at how programming fits into it.
 
chinesepiratefood said:
The Alternate Alternate path is the one I took in college: Memorize material in my calc/discrete math classes, and then by the time I graduate forget everything you learned :\

I have always been more interested in the software engineering aspect however. For 3 years I had a software engineering position that required some basic calculus/trig/statistics, but since that job I have very rarely used much of that.

I think a lot of people get into CS just because they like computers and want to do IT work or something, which is completely unnecessary. Sure, you could get an IT job with a CS degree, but the people who switch majors from CS are often the ones who a) Want to do IT or b) Want to "create" video games.



Your CS department does not sound typical. Where I went to college, CS and MIS were completely different majors (CS is college of engineering, MIS is college of business).
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At my school, we have CS, IS and BIT, plus a few more additional degrees. BIT is a tie between the business college and the computer science college. There is no programming in the BIT.

IS is information system that comes from the computer science school. There is programming involved.

There are schools that have IS degrees within the CS department. If they are, they tend to be heavier on the programming side, and less business.

i would check to see where the internships, and job postings related to your career field are. Most of the IT related job postings are in the computer science college at my school.
 
chinesepiratefood said:
Your CS department does not sound typical. Where I went to college, CS and MIS were completely different majors (CS is college of engineering, MIS is college of business).
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No, they are different. CS is part of the math department, MACS. MIS is indeed a BBA. I was at a local school for a year and a half and got my AS. Many of my classes from there aren't being used for my CS degree, so my MIS adviser said he would sub them in.
In the CS program you pick one of 5 emphasis tracks, mine was business so I was another step ahead for the MIS degree.
 
Hey everyone, I've been pretty busy over the last few days so I'll try to catch up on the thread now.
I've been (slowly) going through my C++ book for the past week - so far, so good. I installed VC++ onto one of my systems to begin working with during my free time.
The box from the attic that had my old textbooks was void of any math texts, so I went to Goodwill and bought Trigonometry, College Algebra, Precalculus and Calculus textbooks($4 each), dated between 1997 and 2007 I believe. I don't think the fundamentals of math have changed since these books were issued, so this will be a cheap learning experience for me. I'm working through College Algebra during my downtime at work. The good thing is that these problems don't feel foreign to my mind after nearly a decade away from them.
monkey_slap said:
Do this

Check out Google and learn how to make a webpage. Do that. Then set up a server and get it to run your webpage. Start playing with the server side code to make your page actually do stuff. Now work client side and make it do more stuff.

Things wont be looking too far up if you can't get pass this. You need to want to do something, and (imo) making you're own webpage is a good start.
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Great idea! I haven't run my own webpage since 2001(had a Diablo 2 site and a site covering all of the car audio installations I had performed), and things have certainly changed since then. I guess now is the time to finally get my short films and such online. I have an original death scene in one of them that people love...

odoe said:
I suppose in many cases an actual CS degree gets your resume a look when you apply for positions and stuff....maybe there's some development for rendering of video or something you could look at trying or tools to process audio, just throwing stuff out there...So maybe if you like your current industry, you can look at how programming fits into it.
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My concern is trying to get anywhere in a computer field and being discarded because it doesn't say "Computer Science" anywhere on my resume. I've worked 13 years in a restaurant and 4 years in law enforcement, so the only tech experience I can claim is whatever I've gained on my own time, and I don't have any proof of that. Thanks for the ideas.
 
PointandClick said:
No, they are different. CS is part of the math department, MACS. MIS is indeed a BBA. I was at a local school for a year and a half and got my AS. Many of my classes from there aren't being used for my CS degree, so my MIS adviser said he would sub them in.
In the CS program you pick one of 5 emphasis tracks, mine was business so I was another step ahead for the MIS degree.
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I looked into it and my university offers an MIS degree now, but the standard of passing the C++ course still applies. There is also a new IT program, but they don't have the course requirements up yet. I'll look into that this week.
 
Damn, these guys here are given you a hard time. Yeah you dropped out of a degree when you were younger, and now you're a little older and know what you want. You want to go back to doing a degree. I wish you good luck!

If you want to be a programmer, I would stay away from MIS and IT degrees. They are generally much softer and won't give you the foundation as a decent Computing/ Comp Sci syllabus.

PS: Although the lecturer shouldn't make or brake your grade. A good teacher does make a big difference in sparking your interest in a subject and challenging you which can lead to a deeper understanding than some book.
 
Wiseguy2001 said:
Damn, these guys here are given you a hard time. Yeah you dropped out of a degree when you were younger, and now you're a little older and know what you want. You want to go back to doing a degree. I wish you good luck!

If you want to be a programmer, I would stay away from MIS and IT degrees. They are generally much softer and won't give you the foundation as a decent Computing/ Comp Sci syllabus.

PS: Although the lecturer shouldn't make or brake your grade. A good teacher does make a big difference in sparking your interest in a subject and challenging you which can lead to a deeper understanding than some book.
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I personally don't have a problem with people wanting to learn something. The only problem is, I know a ton of people who blame their lack of success on others. The bottom line is, it's always your own fault. My algorithms professor I would describe as less than ideal (despite the fact that I believe he genuinely cares about teaching). To make up for this, I've bought Introduction to Algorithms and obtained countless online resources and textbooks. Essentially, I have 3 different textbooks and course material from ~10 years of this course offering. I care enough to really understand this material that I'll go through all of this information and spend hours, upon hours doing the homework. We'll see if this is enough after my exam this week... but I've talked to several people who were taking this class and I learned they dropped it already: "It's too hard.", "Professor is too bad.", "Lectures are boring.". The funny thing is, the people who said that were all people who I know to have a work ethic along the lines of "If the professor doesn't walk me through it, how should he/she expect me to learn any of this?". My answer to that: You bust your ass to figure it out, and blow the homework and exams out of the water.
 
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KingSmoth said:
I looked into it and my university offers an MIS degree now, but the standard of passing the C++ course still applies. There is also a new IT program, but they don't have the course requirements up yet. I'll look into that this week.
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MIS will give you a taste of programming, but it's more focused on solving technology problems in a business setting. I'm not sure what exactly you want to do, but unless you want to program specifically you might look into these other degrees if you're just looking for something to show your competence on a resume. Then again, you've already got a lot of credits towards CS.
I added MIS because I don't really have the passion for programming.
 
Wiseguy2001 said:
Damn, these guys here are given you a hard time. Yeah you dropped out of a degree when you were younger, and now you're a little older and know what you want. You want to go back to doing a degree. I wish you good luck!
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Hard time? He's wasted months (if not more than a year) and thousands of dollars. We're going easy on him -- he chose to slack off.
 
Good luck with your choice man! I'm also in the beginning stage of a career change.

I'm going for a Computer Engineering degree after being an Automotive Technician since 2002. I'm still taking my gen ed requirements at the moment(been out of school for 8 years and had to start in Algebra) I can't take my CS240(Programming 1) class until I've passed my Algebra class. Then its Precalc, Trig, Calc I, II, III, then a half million other math classes. I agree that you have to find the interest in every class you take and make it work for you, I'm still having a hard time doing that. I'm also having a hard time staying in the 3.5+ GPA category.

Does your GPA mean anything to future employers? I'd figure they'd look at it to select you, then(hopefully) base your hiring off the interview process.
 
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