jonneymendoza
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yea but dont forget, 5,6 years ago pirating games was just has easy back then yet we still got tons of exclusive pc gaming. your statement fails
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Crytek no longer PC exclusive
- Thread starter Netrat33
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damonposey
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actually your statement fails. for you and other PC enthusiasts yes it was just as easy, but not for the majority. You couldn't go to a website 5-6 years ago, click on a link and have a bittorrent start. most people didn't know what the hell a newsgroup was(hell even now most people still don't). Now, even un-tech-savvy people can easily pirate games. No need to go to irc, wait for fserves, get connections to get access to FTP sites etc. It's effortless now.
Hypothetically, if Crysis was unpiratable how many of these people would have bought the game? Would you have bought it?
The people who only play a game if they can get it for free are not customers. The amount of money spent on trying to prevent these people from playing a game is a waste. They were never going get any money from them anyway.
Yes, piracy is rampant for PC games and yes, consoles are more profitable but "Correlation does not imply causation".
damonposey
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False misconception, mr noobie, which has been proved false countless times, and you'll soon learn that it don't fly on this forum.
'They were never going to get any money from them anyway'
is an unprovable statement. It's unprovable because we don't live in a world where it's not possible to pirate. If we did there is a chance that he would make a sacrifice and pay money for the game realizing there was no other way. Doesn't matter what this person says, or how resolute they think they are, it's simply a statement that can't be proven so its merely an ignorant assumption.
Ad hominem argument already? May I ask were this proof is? And no, I'm not going to do a search to back up your argument.
Piracy & PC Gaming
Casual Games and Piracy: The Truth
Krenum
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Figures.... I don't really blame them, there out to make as much as possible, in the end thats what its all about.
Catch22sk8r
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judging by what you hear and are told, along with the demo . I'd think people would have bought the game more as a benchmark than anything. apparently its a love hate game, I put the demo on my system, never finished it, and stopped there. no real pull in the demo.
later that week I purchased The Witcher. very cool game, until I accidentally deleted my save game files
later that week I purchased The Witcher. very cool game, until I accidentally deleted my save game files
Frag0Lution
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You can't really blame them. They are in the industry to make money, and piracy is killing our side of the fence.
brucedeluxe169
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Actually, if it was not piratable, I probably would not have bought it anyway... since the MP aspect really isn't that great, and since I have a good amount of college friends and home town friends that play PC games, I probably could have just borrowed it from someone.... if borrowing the game was somehow not possible, I woulda done what I do with most games that I buy.... wait until they hit the 30 dollar mark or below....
It's not a proveable statement you're right, but we're not talking about 1 or 2 games by 1 or 2 people, we're talking about a multi billion dollar industry, what matters is the big picture, and on average more and more money is being spent on entertainment. People can only put X amount of money into entertainment per month, most people will spend that whether pirating it is an option or not, it's just a matter of exactly what they spend their money on.
Some people will pirate Crysis and like it and buy it, I'm one of those people, some people may pirate it, think "this is crap" and then go spend their money on a Wii game or go and buy an album. Money is still injected into the industry only it goes in where it's deserved.
This whole concept of every pirated game/media is a lost sale is absolute rubbish, most of the hardcore pirates who own 1000's of DVD's of media could never afford to buy all that media in one lifetime so even if you dont agree that it's rubbish we can at least all agree it's mathematically impossible for every pirated game to be a lost sale.
damonposey
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Why are you asking me for proof on a claim that YOU made? are you in the right thread? You made the infamous claim 'wouldn't have bought it anyway'.
that little word 'anyway' is a scenario you cannot be in, so you cannot prove it.
In laymens terms, It's like a 14 year old getting done playing the omaha beach level in a world war 2 FPS, and he goes, 'man, if I was there with my sniper rifle, i'd snipe all those germans just like I do in the game!'. When in fact if he was there, he'd be shitting his pants.
So simple economics doesn't deter your logic then?
damonposey
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Hey I'm not making any blanket statements here. He however is, and I'm just calling him on it.
I asserted that spending a lot of money on anti-piracy is waste since they would never see a a return on that investment. You said "False misconception, mr noobie, which has been proved false countless times, and you'll soon learn that it don't fly on this forum." I asked for this proof that it "has been proved false countless times" and then provided proof of my argument in the web links.
The analogy you have provided has very little relevance to this debate. It's just another "what if" scenario with someone commenting on a different improbable circumstance. You've already drawn a conclusion to it, "he'd be shitting his pants" were as with mine you said I could not drawn one because "[It] is a scenario you cannot be in, so you cannot prove it."
I don't think any of my post will change your view even a little since this has probably gotten to the point of "I must right at all cost". So I will make an addendum to my statement. Piracy is wrong. When someone pirates software you are taking the hard work of somebody else. If you don't want to spend $50-$60 on game then just don't buy it or wait until it's at a reasonable price to you (Thanks brucedeluxe169). They will get the message that the game isn't worth that price if nobody buys or plays it. When the developers see that their expensive game is being played by people it's easy to come to the conclusion that its worth playing but everyone stole it instead.
I believe only the really, really popular games (COD4) would have any significant amount of buyers out of the pirates if they couldn't get it for free. Crysis isn't as popular as COD4. Crysis' target consumer base was so small that it was guaranteed to be viewed as a under performer in sales. How many people do you know that can play Crysis at the graphic settings they like? How many people liked the game? How many people do you know that bought the game at full price?
Publishers and developers are going to start expanding their customer base (multi platform releases) so that they actually make enough money to feel justified making games. They just haven't admitted to this yet. Instead they highlight the problems of the PC gaming platform to justify developing for consoles.
damonposey, you're taking this way too seriously.
Some great points.Wouldn't that be the ultimate form of irony, developers defecting to consoles for lack of rampant piracy, and then the pirates follow them there too.
It's inevitable, only a matter of a time.
Sour grapes on Crytek's behalf?
The game sold badly not just because of piracy but because there are only a million PC's in the world that can run Crysis at fast framerates. Crytek shot themselves in the foot.
I'm sick of Crytek moaning about poor sales every bloody month. STFU already!
The game sold badly not just because of piracy but because there are only a million PC's in the world that can run Crysis at fast framerates. Crytek shot themselves in the foot.
I'm sick of Crytek moaning about poor sales every bloody month. STFU already!
wildfire99
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True, but piracy is a *huge* problem in all IP fields right now. Music, Movies, Games, Apps, OS, you name it. There is no one specific "OMG" moment where one sector is getting creamed while the others are getting off easy. I'm not sure why that is, apparently nobody else is sure either. But something is up where the old consumerist models just don't work anymore, and instead of attempting to fix that, the afflicted industries are just trying to push ahead by criminalizing users--a measure as effective and appropriate as putting a band-aid on a compound fracture.
My immediate question is why is piracy rampant? Is it the ease of piracy, is it the fact that IP has no tangible form, is it that humans are all criminals by nature, or is it that there just isn't a perceived value or sufficiently perceived value in the product? I don't believe people are inherently criminal, thus there is something wrong with the product, with the pricing, or the marketing/sales of the product.
The problem is that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing in the games industry. How many new 3D engines are coming out this year? Next? Every game has a new engine it seems. How would anyone expect a game company to create something masterful when they have to literally reinvent the wheel each and every time just to get the basics going?
The consoles are not immune to this... look at GTA IV. How much better/faster would that game run and perform if the PS3 and the XBox had a singular hardware interface or API? How much faster would it have come to market if Rockstar didn't have to screw around with multiple render engines that don't even perform the same across platforms? What if they could have just addressed each console (plus the PC) as one interface (e.g. DirectX), using a tweaked existing engine (e.g. Unreal), and just created... you know... a GAME that you could play, instead of a rendering engine that has this sandbox world attached to it?
And then what kind of hardware will the PC have in 2 years, and how many cores or retarded hardware gimmicks will the PS4 have? How crippled will MS make the XBox720 just to scrape up a few extra bucks on peripheral sales? You can't even create a decent cross-platform engine or game yourself without being psychic and/or blackmailing those relevant design teams.
Crysis is probably another great example of where gaming is going wrong on all platforms. Get ready to see more of it. This is like asking an artist like Michelangelo to stop painting and sculpting because every work of art requires him to reinvent brushes, paints, and canvas and processes to construct them every time. And because of this, only those proficient enough to engineer and construct their tools are allowed to produce art (or games). It's silly.
damonposey
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Dude, this isn't a debate. There's nothing to debate here. You simply CANNOT prove that someone would not buy video games in an alternate scenario where software piracy was not a reality. That's what it comes down to. You can't prove it because we don't live in that reality, so you can only guess at what human behaviour would be in this scenario.
Unless you're god. are you god?
brucedeluxe169
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it is WAY easier on the PC than on consoles
yes, because it has no tangible form, we feel better about stealing it rather than it being a physical object we take from a store
people ARE criminal by nature... for many people, the only thing holding them back from raping and killing is the possibility of getting caught... and this leads back to why piracy is so popular, people are stealing something intangible instead os something physical... they feel less likely (and are less likely) to be caught...
there IS percieved value, thats why people want the media in the first place...
and no, dont blame pricing... because consoles definitely show us that people will pay if they HAVE to (console games are much more expensive than PC games in retail when they are new/popular, yet still sell many times more than PC games)
brucedeluxe169
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I agree... I, like many, many, many people on this board and elsewhere would have purchased many more games had piracy not been possible.
Wait...so we're allowed to speculate that we'd buy more games if piracy wasn't a choice?
But we cannot speculate that we'd never have bought a game anyway if piracy wasn't a choice?
I'm not sure where I sit in this argument in respect to this whole "what if" scenario, but one thing I know for damn sure is you can't have it both ways!
As in my previous post my opinion is more geared towards the bigger picture, you could debate whether you think you'd have bought a specific game X or specific game Y had there been the opportunity to pirate it, or not...however what about when we're talking about what you'd buy in a month, or in a year...when we're talking about a persons monthly disposable income (what they can afford to spend on extras such as entertainment)
With these arguments that piracy is causing lost sales you're implying that people would simply never spend any money in the industry, or rather that the total spent would decrease. This simply isn't the case, this is an ever growing industry, if people pirate a game it doesn't rule out them people spending the saved money on another game.
All that really occurs is that people spend money on BETTER products, this helps eliminate the ability for developers to create mediocre games and sell based on hype or other false premises.
The people who are pirating because they're cheapskates or simply cannot afford the game in the first place are highly unlikely to inject money into the industy no matter how easy/difficult piracy is.
And can we stop with the fallious arguments like the appeals to emotion by claiming poor game developers wont get paid etc, they all get paid salarys no matter how well the game does. The game market shouldn't be treated as this special case scenario where it's supposed to be this magical place where nothing bad ever happens, development studio are just like all other companies, they compete in a saturated market, some die, some do well, people get fired and hired just liek everywhere else. This "poor developers, boohoo" rubbish needs to stop.
TheBluePill
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I purchase ALL of my titles, I would buy more games if the costs were lower. it has nothing to do at all with Piracy in the least.
I Figure it breaks down like this;
30% Buy Retail due to not knowing how to pirate / casual gamers.
20% Buy Software Legally for moral reasons,
15% Buy retail for gifts for other people
15% Buy retail for Less hastle/convenience
10% Pirate when possible but buy some titles retail
10% Pirate Only
I Figure it breaks down like this;
30% Buy Retail due to not knowing how to pirate / casual gamers.
20% Buy Software Legally for moral reasons,
15% Buy retail for gifts for other people
15% Buy retail for Less hastle/convenience
10% Pirate when possible but buy some titles retail
10% Pirate Only
damonposey
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Consider this scenario:
A game developer makes a good game. it sells,OK. enough so that the developer can develop it's sequel with the same engine license. bittorrent sites are exploding with seeds for this game. Ok, so This is pretty common.
But what if the game was pirated less and they made more profit? This allowed them to license a better engine, hire a couple hollywood actors for voice over work, and get more support from the publisher, as well as better advertising for their next game?
See people like to overlook possibilites like these, but its a likely scenario. Piracy CAN affect not only them, but us as gamers.
The way I see it, the money that was saved by the pirates who didn't buy the game, is spent on other games/media, ones they consider more worth paying for. Money still goes into the industy, just to different people.
If they want to DIRECTLY increase their own revenue on the first game, they need to make it more desireable to consumers, this includes things like making sure paying customers aren't beta testing (very common), make sure compatability is good, stop loading software with loads of anti-piracy which doesn't work, the list goes on and on and on really.
{EB}NuTSymPToM{EB}
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I agree with the idea that entertainment cost per person is relatively fixed.
Rather than pay full price for Crysis I bought several bargain bin games for the same dollar value for many more hours of entertainment. I bought BF2, STALKER, and UT2K4 for $10 each and still haven't exhuasted them.
Piracy is so rampant (imo) because very few people think current prices are justifiable or accurate. I won't pay $15 for a cd. If I love the band I support them by seeing them live or buying merchandise like t-shirts where they actually see some of the money. I don't buy movies and rarely go to see them because, again, I don't think the cost is deserved or justified. I will pay to see Iron Man because I want to feel that I am contributing to the success of something I appreciate (Marvel).
I pay full price for games that deserve it. I own practically every game Valve and Blizzard ever made for full price. I plan on doing the same with Relics strategy games now that I've played DoW and CoH. I won't pay $50 for a console rehash single player only game (Bioshock, Gears of War). I'll play them when they reach the bargain bin or eBay them off some unsatisfied idiot that was willing to pay full price.
Pirating happens because people want more with less cost to themselves. When the company I work for brings in catered food EVERYONE eats more than they usually do for lunch. Its human nature. If people can get games/music/movies for less or no cost, they will because they want more than they can justify at market prices. As long as businesses think they can charge $20 for a movie or music cd and microsoft thinks it can charge $200 for its latest OS or a game company wants to charge $70 for a game people will look for a way around it.
If PC games didn't have annoying copy protection and sold for $30 at release I would own many more games at full release value rather than eBay and bargain bin them later for dirt cheap. PC developers are learning the hard way that over-priced, underwhelming titles won't sell (see UT3).
/endrant
Rather than pay full price for Crysis I bought several bargain bin games for the same dollar value for many more hours of entertainment. I bought BF2, STALKER, and UT2K4 for $10 each and still haven't exhuasted them.
Piracy is so rampant (imo) because very few people think current prices are justifiable or accurate. I won't pay $15 for a cd. If I love the band I support them by seeing them live or buying merchandise like t-shirts where they actually see some of the money. I don't buy movies and rarely go to see them because, again, I don't think the cost is deserved or justified. I will pay to see Iron Man because I want to feel that I am contributing to the success of something I appreciate (Marvel).
I pay full price for games that deserve it. I own practically every game Valve and Blizzard ever made for full price. I plan on doing the same with Relics strategy games now that I've played DoW and CoH. I won't pay $50 for a console rehash single player only game (Bioshock, Gears of War). I'll play them when they reach the bargain bin or eBay them off some unsatisfied idiot that was willing to pay full price.
Pirating happens because people want more with less cost to themselves. When the company I work for brings in catered food EVERYONE eats more than they usually do for lunch. Its human nature. If people can get games/music/movies for less or no cost, they will because they want more than they can justify at market prices. As long as businesses think they can charge $20 for a movie or music cd and microsoft thinks it can charge $200 for its latest OS or a game company wants to charge $70 for a game people will look for a way around it.
If PC games didn't have annoying copy protection and sold for $30 at release I would own many more games at full release value rather than eBay and bargain bin them later for dirt cheap. PC developers are learning the hard way that over-priced, underwhelming titles won't sell (see UT3).
/endrant
Without dipping my feet too far into a debate that will probably never end, I'd like to say that I at least hope that someday soon the internet will collectively realize how utterly retarded it is to use the excuse that the reason they pirated so-and-so game is because it was too mediocre for the price the developer was asking for. So it's a mediocre, shitty game, but it's still worth playing, so long as you get it for free. All you're really saying there is, "I have godawful taste in games."
And no, piracy doesn't have the positive externality of improving games. Where the hell did people come up with that crock? Piracy forces all but the absolute largest developers to go under, and soon enough the only games that will be available are the ones the executives believe will recoup their budget. Piracy is a quick path to a rehashed franchise industry...or did you guys not notice that when playing BF2142?
And no, piracy doesn't have the positive externality of improving games. Where the hell did people come up with that crock? Piracy forces all but the absolute largest developers to go under, and soon enough the only games that will be available are the ones the executives believe will recoup their budget. Piracy is a quick path to a rehashed franchise industry...or did you guys not notice that when playing BF2142?
Assuming that less piracy = more sales then I would agree. However thats not how I feel.
damonposey
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so instead of a game developer getting the money, samsung gets it so they can have a new TV. How is that a good thing for the gaming industry? You're talking as if that somehow makes piracy just. What a joke.
And your thinking is backwards that people will buy more games if they are better games, less copy protection etc. There is simply no logic in it.
People don't gain any morals from realizing a game is great. If anything a great game will only make people want to pirate it more. If they have to choose, get an OK game for free, or get a GREAT game for free, duh, I wonder what they will choose? You miss the whole logic of typical pirates, and that is simply 'I want to be entertained, and I want it for free'.