Creationists Demand Equal Airtime Over Cosmos Content

[Tawnos]

Short answer - Adam and Eve were supposed to obey, not question. Like when your parents tell you to do something as a child.

But how would they know that it wasn't okay not to obey? They had no knowledge of good and evil. According to the myth, they literally couldn't know it was wrong to disobey before eating the fruit.

It's like computers and software pre-DEP. The computer couldn't differentiate "data" and "execution" parts of the program. Something triggers it to jump into data space and execute whatever is there, sure, why not?

 

[crusty_juggler]

25 pages of people arguing because one creationist guy made a blog post.

The creationist dude ain't hurting no one, it's not like he's your kid's science teacher. Just a guy with a blog.

And who the heck is "Right Wing Watch" and why are they getting people all riled up over nothing?

 

[BravO)))]

The big bang was nothing but light.

But nice of you to admit, that you never understood what the big bang was, ahahahahahaha.

I'm not sure you could say it was even light. Photons have a speed limit while the big bang didn't. The big bang was pure energy that converted into mass later. And if manofgod wants to question the big bang, his retort should be in a scientific manner. If not, his opinion is invalid and should carry no weight when in talks of science.

 

[satsunada]

holy crap.. this thread is still going?

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Short answer - Adam and Eve were supposed to obey, not question. Like when your parents tell you to do something as a child.

If god were omnipotent wouldn't he know what they were going to do anyway? Why create people who are going to disobey, then punish them for it?

 

[Zoop99]

My biggest problem with true atheism is the origin of life....

The first single cell organism on earth... to have a cell that can perform all the functions of life.. and even recreate itself, evolve and adapt. The amount of insane complexity it takes is just astounding......

The earth much like everything else was created by the big bang.. at temperatures and pressures too extreme to imagine... how did that first cell come to exist....

I believe that a greater being created the universe but i do not believe in organized religion in general... any of them in fact.

 

[Mr. K6]

My biggest problem with true atheism is the origin of life....

The first single cell organism on earth... to have a cell that can perform all the functions of life.. and even recreate itself, evolve and adapt. The amount of insane complexity it takes is just astounding......

The earth much like everything else was created by the big bang.. at temperatures and pressures too extreme to imagine... how did that first cell come to exist....

I believe that a greater being created the universe but i do not believe in organized religion in general... any of them in fact.

Except modern experiments have greatly increased our understanding of how the first cells came to be, it's actually a hot area of research right now. You can think of a cell as a massive chemical reaction working to lower its energy state to be the most stable. We have "pre-cell" models of complex RNA's that mimic what we think are the first "molecules of life." From there the complexity just works up with more molecules and reactions to being a complete cell. Also remember that this took billions of years to happen.

Again, because something is so complex with can't understand all aspects of it at the moment doesn't mean we won't ever figure it out. Saying "God did it" is simpleton's or a coward's way out.

 

[HardUp4HardWare]

If god were omnipotent wouldn't he know what they were going to do anyway? Why create people who are going to disobey, then punish them for it?

I’ll take this one…

The whole reason God set all of this in motion was a plan he had since before the universe was created.

His plan from the beginning was to create a free will being that could ultimately be his children. Meaning they would eventually have a part of his essence.

Yes, he knew sin would come from free will, but in the end sin would be dealt with and eliminated; and because he is so awesome and righteous he himself took on flesh and became a man and dealt with the sin issue in the form of Christ. Yes, Christ was God made flesh.

God is not some cosmic puppetmaster, he wants us to love him willingly and ultimately he provided us a way to get around the sin issue so we all have no excuse.

Please note that I do not understand all of what Christ did when he defeated sin, and I don’t pretend to understand how God can exist outside of time and spark the creation of matter and our universe as a whole. He just did. God is the quantum spark that make scientists wet themselves.

 

[Mr. K6]

I’ll take this one…

The whole reason God set all of this in motion was a plan he had since before the universe was created.

His plan from the beginning was to create a free will being that could ultimately be his children. Meaning they would eventually have a part of his essence.

Yes, he knew sin would come from free will, but in the end sin would be dealt with and eliminated; and because he is so awesome and righteous he himself took on flesh and became a man and dealt with the sin issue in the form of Christ. Yes, Christ was God made flesh.

God is not some cosmic puppetmaster, he wants us to love him willingly and ultimately he provided us a way to get around the sin issue so we all have no excuse.

Why create sin in the first place? Clearly he's not omnipotent since he needs to get off to people loving him and choosing him. Those are human emotions and needs, shallow ones at that, why call him/her God? The whole thing is Christianity is based in an extremely juvenile mindset that characterizes God at best as a father figure and more often as a petty toddler throwing a tantrum. Why be loving when you can be a dick (turning Lot's only wife to salt because two strangers told her not to look back, fuck her right?) or a petty child (let's ruin Job's life to prove a point to the devil, amirite?)?

Please note that I do not understand all of what Christ did when he defeated sin, and I don’t pretend to understand how God can exist outside of time and spark the creation of matter and our universe as a whole. He just did. God is the quantum spark that make scientists wet themselves.

You realize saying that no matter what happens "it was part of God's plan" is circular logic and makes scientists laugh at you, not wet themselves, right? As has been previously mentioned, if your "argument" (and I'm using that term very loosely) can't even stand up to basic logic, never mind facts, why would anyone take you seriously?

 

[Kelby]

Bunch of sociopaths. (looks at everyone in the room.)

 

[Mr. K6]

Bunch of sociopaths. (looks at everyone in the room.)

You realize you have no idea what the term sociopath means, right? You should stop using it.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

My biggest problem with true atheism is the origin of life....

The first single cell organism on earth... to have a cell that can perform all the functions of life.. and even recreate itself, evolve and adapt. The amount of insane complexity it takes is just astounding......

The earth much like everything else was created by the big bang.. at temperatures and pressures too extreme to imagine... how did that first cell come to exist....

I believe that a greater being created the universe but i do not believe in organized religion in general... any of them in fact.

Life almost certainly didn't start with a complete cell, it started with simple self-replicating molecules. Carbon-based molecules are the building blocks of life. They form naturally and are practically everywhere. We see today that proteins and other molecules can self-replicate, not just DNA molecules. We see a variety of chemical processes in nature which are similar to what goes on inside cells. The chemical environment around deep-sea vents mimics the citric acid cycle. Certain minerals will catalyze the creation of random sequences of RNA and proteins. Phospholipid bilayers form naturally as bubbles in water, and they can even be self-replicating on their own. Even dirt on Mars demonstrates something like metabolism. All you need is one self-replicator to randomly form somewhere among the trillions of ongoing natural chemical experiments and natural selection can start doing it's thing.

My problem with 'designer' explanations is that invoking a god or other designer doesn't answer anything. Were did god come from? If the universe and life is so complex that it needed a creator, who created the creator? If there were some hard evidence for the existence of a god it would be a more compelling explanation.

The whole reason God set all of this in motion was a plan he had since before the universe was created.

His plan from the beginning was to create a free will being that could ultimately be his children. Meaning they would eventually have a part of his essence.

How do you know that?

Yes, Christ was God made flesh.

How do you know that?

God is not some cosmic puppetmaster, he wants us to love him willingly and ultimately he provided us a way to get around the sin issue so we all have no excuse.

How do you know that?

I don’t pretend to understand how God can exist outside of time and spark the creation of matter and our universe as a whole. He just did.

How do you know that?

None of what you said answers the question. You claim to know specific details about god, and when faced with the lack of evidence you imply that god works in mysterious ways. Untestable claims are worthless, you could just as easily argue that Santa Claus or Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster work in mysterious ways.

This is the key difference between science and mysticism. Science is the process of testing ideas against observations while religions claim specific beliefs regardless of evidence.

 

[QwertyJuan]

As someone NOT from the USA speaking.....

Considering the United States of America was founded by a group of "Christians" that left Europe to escape persecution for their beliefs (which I'm SURE Creationism was one, as well as belief in the Bible being divinely inspired by God), you guys sure seem to have an aversion to teachings that your country was founded upon. I almost find it humourous to tell you the truth.

Just an observation.

 

[KENNYB]

Why would you want to spend eternity with them? Ugh, no thanks. That would be almost as much punishment as carrying on a conversation with the God that ManofGod has created for himself.

Hahaha you're right.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

As someone NOT from the USA speaking.....

Considering the United States of America was founded by a group of "Christians" that left Europe to escape persecution for their beliefs (which I'm SURE Creationism was one, as well as belief in the Bible being divinely inspired by God), you guys sure seem to have an aversion to teachings that your country was founded upon. I almost find it humourous to tell you the truth.

Just an observation.

That was like 500 years ago. I don't think anything would stay the same from the 18th century until now. I guess that compared to a lot of more smart awesome nations that are a lot older, it seems weird to think that nothing would change in the short time the US has been around, but its okay, I think most people living in the US are sorta dumb too...I mean between the angry political junk, the insisting on driving gigantic vehicles while looking at a phone, the guns, and Wal-Mart NASCAR people, I'm scared to go outside.

 

[QwertyJuan]

That was like 500 years ago. I don't think anything would stay the same from the 18th century until now. I guess that compared to a lot of more smart awesome nations that are a lot older, it seems weird to think that nothing would change in the short time the US has been around, but its okay, I think most people living in the US are sorta dumb too...I mean between the angry political junk, the insisting on driving gigantic vehicles while looking at a phone, the guns, and Wal-Mart NASCAR people, I'm scared to go outside.

It's actually been less than 400 years... regardless. Wal-Marts and large SUV's scare me too.

 

[Majinhoju]

How do you know that?

I'm still waiting to hear a good answer to this question from the creationist side of the argument.


It reminds me of the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham debate:

Bill Nye: Evidence! Observing the world us and evidence around us etc.. etc..
Ken Ham: This book! this book!

 

[QwertyJuan]

I'm still waiting to hear a good answer to this question from the creationist side of the argument.


It reminds me of the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham debate:

Bill Nye: Evidence! Observing the world us and evidence around us etc.. etc..
Ken Ham: This book! this book!

I actually watched the debate and all things considered, I wouldn't consider either of these two men as a "winner". They both argued their view points quite well.

FWIW, I am definitely NOT an Evolutionist... however, I think Ken Ham is way off as well(I have a different view of what happened and I DEFINITELY think the world is WAY more than 6000 years old... possibly even BILLIONS of years old as most Scientists believe.) ... I just think both men argued their viewpoints very well.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

As someone NOT from the USA speaking.....

Considering the United States of America was founded by a group of "Christians" that left Europe to escape persecution for their beliefs (which I'm SURE Creationism was one, as well as belief in the Bible being divinely inspired by God), you guys sure seem to have an aversion to teachings that your country was founded upon. I almost find it humourous to tell you the truth.

Just an observation.

The United States was not 'founded' by the Pilgrims. You might as well say that the United States was founded by the people who crossed the Bering Straight during the last ice age.

Franklin and Jefferson were practically atheists (though the socially acceptable term was anti-clerical). Paine and a few others were deists. The founding fathers were a fairly liberal bunch for their time.

 

[Low Roller]

Franklin and Jefferson were practically atheists (though the socially acceptable term was anti-clerical). Paine and a few others were deists. The founding fathers were a fairly liberal bunch for their time.

Yep. Jefferson went as far as putting together his own version of the the New Testament, which basically omitted all the miracles Jesus was said to have performed, most the passages related to Jesus being some sort of diving being, and even the parts of the Gospels that deal with his supposed resurrection.

 

[CombatChrisNC]

The United States was not 'founded' by the Pilgrims. You might as well say that the United States was founded by the people who crossed the Bering Straight during the last ice age.

Franklin and Jefferson were practically atheists (though the socially acceptable term was anti-clerical). Paine and a few others were deists. The founding fathers were a fairly liberal bunch for their time.

Yep. Jefferson went as far as putting together his own version of the the New Testament, which basically omitted all the miracles Jesus was said to have performed, most the passages related to Jesus being some sort of diving being, and even the parts of the Gospels that deal with his supposed resurrection.

We have our winners! The Jeffersonian Bible, very nice.

 

[Trimlock]

Not to mention some of the more religious people that were backing the constitution were in large favor of removing religion from politics.

 

[ManofGod]

Yep. Jefferson went as far as putting together his own version of the the New Testament, which basically omitted all the miracles Jesus was said to have performed, most the passages related to Jesus being some sort of diving being, and even the parts of the Gospels that deal with his supposed resurrection.

Which completely makes it a different book and is no longer the Gospel or a part of the Bible. After all, with those things removed, what you have left would make no sense at all.

 

[Trimlock]

Which completely makes it a different book and is no longer the Gospel or a part of the Bible. After all, with those things removed, what you have left would make no sense at all.

That wasn't the point of what he was trying to saying.

We understand that if you take out 50 pages of "50 shades of grey" it turns into a German porn novel.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

That wasn't the point of what he was trying to saying.

We understand that if you take out 50 pages of "50 shades of grey" it turns into a German porn novel.

I totally doubt that you actually read it. It was a good book even though it was kinda popularized because of the prawns.

 

[ManofGod]

That wasn't the point of what he was trying to saying.

We understand that if you take out 50 pages of "50 shades of grey" it turns into a German porn novel.

So? I was not aware that I had to only stick to the point he was trying to make and nothing else.

 

[QwertyJuan]

I totally doubt that you actually read it. It was a good book even though it was kinda popularized because of the prawns.

What do crustaceans have to do with this discussion?

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

What do crustaceans have to do with this discussion?

Like this thread, they're crusty?

 

[KENNYB]

But how would they know that it wasn't okay not to obey? They had no knowledge of good and evil. According to the myth, they literally couldn't know it was wrong to disobey before eating the fruit.

It's like computers and software pre-DEP. The computer couldn't differentiate "data" and "execution" parts of the program. Something triggers it to jump into data space and execute whatever is there, sure, why not?

If god were omnipotent wouldn't he know what they were going to do anyway? Why create people who are going to disobey, then punish them for it?

I've had the same thoughts and I could drive my deacon nuts asking these questions. Basically, why should I be good if God made me how I am and already knows how my life will end. (hahaha)

 

[KENNYB]

My biggest problem with true atheism is the origin of life...

A physicist proposed that the stuff that goes into a black hole may come out somewhere else. We could be the product of a black hole.
What started "this" probably hasn't stopped.

 

[Low Roller]

What do crustaceans have to do with this discussion?

They are what evolved when God started whacking off while reading 50 Shades of Grey.

 

[Kelby]

You realize you have no idea what the term sociopath means, right? You should stop using it.

And you end almost every sentence with "right?" just to get people to think along your line of logic. You should stop using it. Right?

That in itself is manipulative and a sign of a sociopath.

 

[Dekoth-E-]

So? I was not aware that I had to only stick to the point he was trying to make and nothing else.

The point is that he was quashing the argument that this country was founded on "Religion" when it flatly wasn't. It was yet again another factual retort to the fantasy some of you keep trying to insist is right, but never once providing a single "Fact". It is absolutely hysterical the number of "canned" responses in this thread from the religious right that have long been proven as absolute bunk. This again goes to my statements on why I won't take any "creationist" seriously. Not a single one has ever provided any manner of a logical and factual argument. When presented with the obvious questions, all you get are answers like; The book says, I believe, God said, It's only a theory and a load of other absolute garbage that isn't based on a shred of Provable evidence. You want Scientists and those that believe in science to take anything you say seriously? Stop quoting the same canned bullshit that preachers the world over push with zero credibility, Actually Study Evolution, The Big bang and other important scientific Theory and read the bible with the same critical eye you did all of that. When you actually do that, you will end up realizing how badly written it is, how much pure garbage is in it and how flatly wrong taking anything in it literally makes you. Also note, I didn't say at any point that it would shake your faith in god, simply that you might start to understand that you don't have to take everything your preacher and the bible tells you as absolute fact.

 

[HardUp4HardWare]

Life almost certainly didn't start with a complete cell, it started with simple self-replicating molecules. Carbon-based molecules are the building blocks of life. They form naturally and are practically everywhere. We see today that proteins and other molecules can self-replicate, not just DNA molecules. We see a variety of chemical processes in nature which are similar to what goes on inside cells. The chemical environment around deep-sea vents mimics the citric acid cycle. Certain minerals will catalyze the creation of random sequences of RNA and proteins. Phospholipid bilayers form naturally as bubbles in water, and they can even be self-replicating on their own. Even dirt on Mars demonstrates something like metabolism. All you need is one self-replicator to randomly form somewhere among the trillions of ongoing natural chemical experiments and natural selection can start doing it's thing.

My problem with 'designer' explanations is that invoking a god or other designer doesn't answer anything. Were did god come from? If the universe and life is so complex that it needed a creator, who created the creator? If there were some hard evidence for the existence of a god it would be a more compelling explanation.


How do you know that?


How do you know that?


How do you know that?

How do you know that?

None of what you said answers the question. You claim to know specific details about god, and when faced with the lack of evidence you imply that god works in mysterious ways. Untestable claims are worthless, you could just as easily argue that Santa Claus or Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster work in mysterious ways.

This is the key difference between science and mysticism. Science is the process of testing ideas against observations while religions claim specific beliefs regardless of evidence.

Untestable claims are worthless that is why science is not the answer to life the universe and everything.

I know the things I know from experience, research, life and from digging through the crap of this world to get to the truth. Truth can be known, but you have to be ready to accept it. Most people prefer lies, take politics for example they lie to our faces and we line up and vote for them anyway.

Pointless to debate though, I honestly don't think I can convince anyone who doesn't want to believe in God to accept it. Why would you even bother posting in this thread if you didn't have some interest in others opinions? I was just trying to address your question.

God is omnipotent and omniscient and created man with freewill, he doesn't "get off" on people getting punished or going to "hell" he is love and does what he does out of that singular motivation.

The great thing is....one of us will be proven right.

 

[Majinhoju]

Untestable claims are worthless that is why science is not the answer to life the universe and everything.

It doesn't explain everything now, but it gets closer each day. Without science we would still believe the volcano god is angry everytime a volcano rumbles. Humans have always given super natural explanations to things we do not yet understand.

I know the things I know from experience, research, life and from digging through the crap of this world to get to the truth. Truth can be known, but you have to be ready to accept it. Most people prefer lies, take politics for example they lie to our faces and we line up and vote for them anyway.

truth, or facts I should say cannot be deemed truth until they are proven. In science an unproven theory is still just a theory.

Pointless to debate though, I honestly don't think I can convince anyone who doesn't want to believe in God to accept it. Why would you even bother posting in this thread if you didn't have some interest in others opinions? I was just trying to address your question.

We want to see some convincing arguments regarding god. Actual emperical evidence that supports the claim that we were created by an intelligent creator. So for nobody has come up with anything. I myself used to believe, then went more agnostic over the years. I'm open minded but I need evidence. At this point in my life, I'm incable of just believing, I need to know and understand.

God is omnipotent and omniscient and created man with freewill, he doesn't "get off" on people getting punished or going to "hell" he is love and does what he does out of that singular motivation.

Some question again, how do you truly know this? How does one read very old and translated text and easily trust it as a viable source without question?

The great thing is....one of us will be proven right.

I'll repeat a meme that popped up on my facebook news feed this morning: Demand Evidence and Think Critically

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Untestable claims are worthless that is why science is not the answer to life the universe and everything.

Being able to admit what you don't know is vital. Testing ideas against observations is how you find the answers. If you aren't testing ideas against observations you're just making stuff up, and that's less useful than no answer at all.

The idea of a god or afterlife is within the realm of science. There's no evidence for them, so we don't assume they exist until somebody comes up with some evidence. This is the standard we use for everything else, I can't disprove the existence of unicorns, but nobody argues about the fact that we don't believe in them. Why aren't religious beliefs held to the same standard? Show some evidence that it isn't made up, otherwise there's no reason to believe it in the first place.

God is omnipotent and omniscient and created man with freewill, he doesn't "get off" on people getting punished or going to "hell" he is love and does what he does out of that singular motivation.

Except for that time he drowned everybody, right? Or when Jesus says anyone who doesn't believe in him will be like a dead branch, cast into the fire and burned.

I suspect one of the reasons why the god concept is so pernicious is that he's the ultimate neglectful and abusive parent/lover. He doesn't make sense, he never answers, never apologizes... even though he's fully capable of doing so. In that sense religious fanaticism can be seen as a sort of Stockholm syndrome.

The great thing is....one of us will be proven right.

What if we're both wrong and Zeus is the real god? Or Allah? I guess we're both screwed. Or maybe the god is some long forgotten god who is fine with us atheists and agnostics, but send the infidels to suffer for eternity for worshiping false gods.

Anyway, ditto the Jesus thing above. All the conservative Christians I've spoken with throw out this subtle threat in debate. Believe or you'll pay, forever. That's not love.

 

[Trimlock]

So? I was not aware that I had to only stick to the point he was trying to make and nothing else.

Well if you are going to argue out of context about an argument that wasn't made, then by all means go nuts.

 

[Trimlock]

I totally doubt that you actually read it. It was a good book even though it was kinda popularized because of the prawns.

I totally doubt I said anywhere I read it, which btw I did.

Got someone who only posts sarcastically, you seem to get butt hurt easily.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

I totally doubt I said anywhere I read it, which btw I did.

That's certainly rather pervy.

Got someone who only posts sarcastically, you seem to get butt hurt easily.

You leave my butt out of this. It's already got too much to worry about with having to do exercise so it doesn't inflate. It doesn't need YOU or your sarcastically posting observations.

 

[ManofGod]

Being able to admit what you don't know is vital. Testing ideas against observations is how you find the answers. If you aren't testing ideas against observations you're just making stuff up, and that's less useful than no answer at all.

The idea of a god or afterlife is within the realm of science. There's no evidence for them, so we don't assume they exist until somebody comes up with some evidence. This is the standard we use for everything else, I can't disprove the existence of unicorns, but nobody argues about the fact that we don't believe in them. Why aren't religious beliefs held to the same standard? Show some evidence that it isn't made up, otherwise there's no reason to believe it in the first place.



Except for that time he drowned everybody, right? Or when Jesus says anyone who doesn't believe in him will be like a dead branch, cast into the fire and burned.

I suspect one of the reasons why the god concept is so pernicious is that he's the ultimate neglectful and abusive parent/lover. He doesn't make sense, he never answers, never apologizes... even though he's fully capable of doing so. In that sense religious fanaticism can be seen as a sort of Stockholm syndrome.



What if we're both wrong and Zeus is the real god? Or Allah? I guess we're both screwed. Or maybe the god is some long forgotten god who is fine with us atheists and agnostics, but send the infidels to suffer for eternity for worshiping false gods.

Anyway, ditto the Jesus thing above. All the conservative Christians I've spoken with throw out this subtle threat in debate. Believe or you'll pay, forever. That's not love.

So, the sacrifice that Jesus made in our behalf is not Love? The fact that all have sinned and are already on the path to destruction except that he came to take us from that path is not Love? So what is Love then, that someone should do whatever they want whenever they want however they want but their should be no consequences for their decisions?

Also, please cut the political crap out of it, tying this into politics or making it political is just so..........