Creating the PC Equivalent of the $500 Xbox One X Is Trickier Than You Might Guess

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. bugleyman

    bugleyman [H]ard|Gawd

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    Who cares what it would cost to build an equivalent PC? It's not a PC; it's a console, which means the relevant question is "what does this do for me that a PS4 pro doesn't?" The answer is play 4k discs...and cost another $100.

    Don't get me wrong...it's a beautiful piece of hardware. The problem is $499 is suicide, no matter what they put in the box. They simply don't have the games to justify $100 over a PS 4 pro.
     
  2. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If you can lose money selling your products who cares what they Are worth to build?
     
  3. djoye

    djoye 2[H]4U

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    With consoles, they can sell the hardware at a loss and subsidize the rest of the costs by charging game developers licensing fees and other associated fees (quality testing, etc.). PC hardware isn't subsidized, the costs to the developers or publishers likely come from digital distribution (Steam, Origin, Amazon, etc.) and payment processors (PayPal).

    Fact of the matter is, no highly-detailed console game is going to run at 4K without compromise; PC will ALWAYS be the top performer. I do play consoles and I enjoy their exclusive games, but they need to first focus on 1K/60; let's learn to walk before we run, mmmkay.
     
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  4. Ducman69

    Ducman69 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Here's the thing.

    Do you need a computer in your house? A computer is a general purpose machine. Sure, you can play games on it, but you can also do your taxes on it, you can install VPN and do your work on it, you can edit home movies on it, you can watch your crap on Plex on it and serve Plex from it, you can print from it, I mean, it does everything.

    If you factor in that you need a computer anyway, and then add in the cost of a graphics card to the computer you would otherwise have anyway, then the math makes a console difficult to justify, at least for me.

    Granted, consoles are becoming more and more PC-like, in that the Xbox runs windows 10 and is using PC components, but often they offset the hardware cost by locking you into an ecosystem that has many other fees. Its a shell game, like a used car dealer giving you a good deal on your trade-in, only to rape you on warranty and financing fees.
     
  5. rudy

    rudy [H]ardForum Junkie

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    No this is not what many people argue everyone knows that consoles are sold at near cost, and that building equivalent or better hardware for cheaper is not the goal. What people do argue is that if you take the total cost and capabilities of your household computing landscape into account consoles are expensive EVEN at launch. How you figure this out is you start throwing in the true cost of a console vs a PC. Consoles require a bunch of limited performance accessories that are over priced like controllers that cost $50, and subscriptions to services to play games, and games that cost more than most of their PC counterparts or equivalents and are typically more limited in functions. The console cant replace your PC because you still need a PC to do all the other things a computer does. And all of that doesn't take into account other slightly more abstract ideas like personally I think if you have kids you should buy them PCs because you want them to be familiar with using them and have the option to become creative people. Give a kid a computer and all on their own they might learn a lot of things, how to do web design, do 2d or 3d art, mapping, modeling, etc.... There is a ton of creativity and imagination stimulation that is lost when you give kids a console. Its not much different than choosing to give a kid GIjoe / Barbie over Legos. They can play the same game but the mental stimulation and creativity is far more stimulating on legos.

    Exactly


    For me personally the price of a console is basically just me paying for a video card. Because I am going to own a PC no matter what. So I take that $500 and apply to a GPU and ya I get a killer computer that is way more powerful than any console for the same or less costs.
     
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  6. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Same old, same old. Who the hell cares what you can build for $500 when we all here will spend far more than that, all of us, on just the processor, board and ram alone. As usual, the OS, keyboard, monitor, mouse and game controller are conspicuously left out. Then there is the one above who claims $620 and yet, forgets the tax on that as well. Good luck with this flawed line of reasoning, you will need it time and again.
     
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  7. Nunu

    Nunu Limp Gawd

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    Is the scorpio and that $500 for 4k out anywhere? Can i get my hands on one now?? Because i can get 4k on my pc anytime i want, and twice when the volta/ vega upgrade cycle hits soon.
     
  8. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Here is the thing: You are basically saying it is either or and nothing else.
     
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  9. Criticalhitkoala

    Criticalhitkoala [H]ard|Gawd

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    Don't see why anyone would have a hissy fit about it. It's a console. They are fun. It's an ecosystem also that's mostly thriving. It's cool how powerful it is for so cheap but it's also cool if anyone wants more power the have the option to get it in alternative means.

    As I've gotten older though I find my money had to be used towards toys that make money back (cameras, computers, etc) . Unfortunately it makes it hard to justify getting an Xbox for myself. But it's pretty darn cool seeing what Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft does.
     
  10. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Because 9 times out of 10, having a hissy fit around here makes one feel superior. (Or so at least, it seems.) :D I am pleased that we have choices since the PC is not and has not won, otherwise, why do we have consoles 35 years later?
     
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  11. Criticalhitkoala

    Criticalhitkoala [H]ard|Gawd

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    I also think consoles will be around for a long time because of support. Pcs are more powerful but they have multiple more points of potential failure and security risk. A lot of us take for granted our ability to support our own pcs. Most consumers don't want that bother nor the time and cost. Pcs are expensive and outright more trouble for a lot of people. Most parents would buy a system like an Xbox cause if it breaks it breaks and by the time it does you can get a new one for $200. Pc breaks. Well $65 to look at it and wow its obsolete now thats $250 for parts and labor.
     
  12. Criticalhitkoala

    Criticalhitkoala [H]ard|Gawd

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    I actually just answered this without knowing you were gonna ask in the post above lol.
     
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  13. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger [H]ard as it Gets

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    Neither does an XOX. Fail goes to you.
     
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  14. lolfail9001

    lolfail9001 [H]ard|Gawd

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    One word, that is also the reason mobile market is thriving.
     
  15. Vercinaigh

    Vercinaigh Gawd

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    By alot.
     
  16. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Eh, fair enough. Still, somebody's just screwing around trying to compare a new console to a used CPU + no RAM, motherboard, power supply, storage, or case.

    To be devil's advocate, if you want to go head to head against a console, you might want a PC you can run in the living room specifically for movies and games. That's not going to be the same one you're doing editing and taxes on. It's fair to compare a PC from scratch to a console. Like you said though, consoles cost you more in the long run just from game costs alone (or at least will for the type of gamer willing to spend $500).
     
  17. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

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    How's that? you act like most people care about quality audio. They don't and I never said otherwise. But that doesn't change the fact that many do. You don't. Great, buy a cheaper console. Build a PC with no drive in it. Oh wait...it still costs more than this model.
    As for streaming being the fastest, NO FUCKING SHIT. You are part of the masses that like low quality video/audio. Grats to you. Some of us care about quality.
     
  18. _l_

    _l_ I Am A Cock

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    A high end gaming PC with GTX 1080 Ti can smoothly play games on a 4K monitor ... please inform me how the Xbox is going to manage to do the same and for less than the cost of just a GTX 1080 Ti ? I'm guessing the average cost of a high end PC capable of smooth 4K gaming runs (with used parts) at least $1.2k for an AMD based PC
     
  19. Shmee

    Shmee [H]ard|Gawd

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    Forza 7 runs at 4K and 60FPS. There is no cap. They just went for the average spec.
     
  20. Nytegard

    Nytegard 2[H]4U

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    Console games almost always run fast than their PC equivalent. The Operating System tends to be far more lightweight and this allows closer to the metal optimizations. I do think 4k60 fps is not exactly going to occur, and that MS will probably influence developers to put out 4k30 games (with medium quality graphics). Hopefully though, sooner or later they'll focus on 1080p60 with ultra graphics. 4k is better than 1080, but I don't think it's worth the tradeoff personally.
     
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  21. Ducman69

    Ducman69 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Why?

    I'm typing to you from the HTPC in my signature below right now, and in fact I did my taxes on this computer because its the one I use 90% of the time (open concept house). I can fire up something on Plex, check the news, weather, troll on [H], or play a game... whatever. Wireless logitech backlit keyboard + wireless logitech mouse, most of the time using my projector screen.

    Here's the setup I made for a relative with a big house:

    1) Kitchen: Alienware Alpha + 42" TV wall mounted swivel
    2) Downstairs living room: Alienware Alpha + 65" TV wall mounted
    3) Downstairs Bedroom: Alienware Alpha + 42" TV wall mounted
    4) Upstairs living room: Custom desktop w/ GTX 1050 Ti (server) in closet + 65" TV wall mounted
    5) Upstairs office: Custom desktop w/ GTX 1050 Ti + 34" monitor

    Desktops are usually my "recycled" old hardware, lol! When I upgrade, they get my last gen shit. What's nice about it? No ten devices specialized switching inputs... one thing does everything, no switching back and forth.

    You can do anything from anywhere, and you're not locked into any ecosystem. That's worth something IMO.
     
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  22. At the end if the day this is a jaguar apu. Highly modified but still handicapped by the limitations of APUs.

    And you are limited in the amount of power the GPU side can use.

    So I'm thinking a rx470 equivalent performance at best. FHD scaled up to 4k. Hardly exciting. Sure beats a PS4 pro. But not even close to a dedicated pc.
     
  23. Shmee

    Shmee [H]ard|Gawd

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    I hope the devs start including options: like 1080p/60fps or 4K/30FPS. Then people can play the way they want.
     
  24. lolfail9001

    lolfail9001 [H]ard|Gawd

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    4k30 may just be easier to achieve than 1080p60fps on XboneX, actually. Jaguar APUs are that bad, after all.
     
  25. TheHig

    TheHig Gawd

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    While I think this Xbone will be pretty solid even at 500 it's a no go for me. Like many here the PC just gets it done and is still the best all around box you can build.

    I build a PC with my kids for them when they turn 10 and so far none of them have asked for an Xbox or PS. Even their friends who have consoles think it's awesome to play on our PCs. It starts at home people. The PC master race isn't going just happen. :ROFLMAO:
     
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  26. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    All things being equal, 4k@30 is literally double the performance load of 1080@60fps. That said, god knows how many games are capped at 30fps anyway so it won't happen no matter how powerful the hardware is.
     
  27. lolfail9001

    lolfail9001 [H]ard|Gawd

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    No.

    4k@30 fps is half the geometry load and half the CPU load but quadruple the shader load. It is literally a much preferable scenario to 1080p60 for relatively weaker geometry throughput and CPU (and higher shader throughput available) of Xbone[X] APU.
     
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  28. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    And another thing, it is not just the PC, it is the tax, controller and cost of the games.
     
  29. MrBonk

    MrBonk Limp Gawd

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    The Xbox won't play everything at a full native 4k, it is up to developers. Plus there is the huge backlog stuck at sub 1080p. When I build a PC capable of natvie 4k30 gaming, I can play EVERYTHING on PC that properly supports arbitrary resolutions at 4k. With better settings more than likely. 80% of the xox library will be old crap stuck at low resolution with performance problems. Then there is the rest of the PC backlog that is too old to support 4k or doesn't support proper resolutions. Add in Emulation and all the other features of a PC and media capabilities. And there is just no value contest. The only thing xox has is easy UHD BD playback.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  30. funkydmunky

    funkydmunky 2[H]4U

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    No PC has ever been able to match a console for the price in any era. That is why people buy them, because the equivalent priced PC in every era, with its non dedicated hardware/software was/is a non optimized POS as far as gaming goes.
    This is why a real PC gamer has needed to spend more then a console in every era. They also expect much higher quality, longevity as well full control of their system.
    If anyone thinks right now $500 is going to buy you a chunk of solid PC gaming with new components including a controller, driveS, OS, case, PS, CPU and GFX card that is the equivalent of what dedicated hardware can provide, let us see it!
    I notice how NO one has yet provided a parts list to do so.
    Hmmmm, wonder why ;)
     
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  31. Vercinaigh

    Vercinaigh Gawd

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    Once again you assumed incorrectly even AFTER I told you otherwise, I don't watch any form of TV. So stop telling me what I like. These are just facts, people who care about that player are a small minority, the content that takes advantage of it just as small, it's of little value. And no, building a PC outside that drive even at a reduced price isn't that hard, I'm sorry, you want it to be, I know, but it's not. I don't even hate consoles, that's just lol, actually want a PS4 for it' exclusives, Pro is no better value wise either.
     
  32. Vercinaigh

    Vercinaigh Gawd

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    A simple google search reveals all.....it's been done hundreds of times...why do it again...your statement has -never- been accurate...
     
  33. y0bailey

    y0bailey Gawd

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    OK..I fucking hate these articles.

    First off...Xbox requires a subscription to really be usable. $60 a year. So 1.5 years in you have W10 for free....or if you are like me I have 3-4 computers that I can upgrade to W10 for free. So cost of OS should be ignored, because you are paying for Xbox Live or Windows regardless.

    Second, they sell these at almost zero profit. Why? Because you buy overpriced games or pay for Xbox live, and they milk the dollars out of you that way. Again, cost comparisons are useless.

    Third, I use this computer for 1000 other things. I need a computer. How does that factor into price?

    Fourth, GOD DAMN KEYBOARD AND MOUSE. You either like keyboards and mice, or you play with a controller. I would rather sell a kidney than play FPS games with controller. If I want to plug a controller in, I do.

    That's it. Xbox1X is cheap. Huzzah! It's still a fucking console. If you want to console game, do so. If I liked console gaming, I would jizz in my pants. I don't. I'll pay an extra $300 for something that is multi-dimensional.

    GAME FUCKING OVER.
     
  34. lolfail9001

    lolfail9001 [H]ard|Gawd

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    You would have a point in PS3 era, but since PS4 PC that costs approximately like that console was safely matching it on hardware costs, bluray drives notwithstanding.

    And please, quit with the OS fallacy, because as was said, one can just bring up the existence of paid online.
     
  35. Exavior

    Exavior [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I don't understand why you guys always think that console games never go on sale. I spend the same amount on console games as I do games on steam.

    You are arguing a slightly different point. You are trying to argue console vs pc gaming in general. While others argue that the cost is way to high and that you could build a 4k gaming machine for that much if not much cheaper. Console vs pc is a never ending battle. People can argue either side as much as they want but the other will never agree. It is like trying to argue with taste better coke or pepsi. You will never get either side to agree that they are wrong as there is no wrong answer, it is a matter of taste.
     
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  36. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    The games simply don't get as low. You can frequently get AAA games a couple years after release for $5-10 during major sales on Steam. On console you have used games, but then you also have local mark up or else shipping costs. I'm not saying console games don't have sales, but I'm talking averages over time. How many 2 year old AAA titles are you buying on console for $5? I don't buy games unless it's during a major sale, particularly summer and Christmas ones. If you want to be a budget gamer, PC can't be topped. If you're spending as much on steam as you are on the console, you're doing it wrong. You have to wait for the sales and see which games get marked down faster than others.

    $500 forces you to think more about what you're spending on. The comparison against PC is inevitable the higher the price range gets. If a $1000 game console came out, you think it wouldn't be compared against the PC more than a $200 one? The higher priced a console is, the less competitive it is because it has less options than the PC and loses its hardware price advantage. It's not really a Coke v. Pepsi thing, they both have pretty objective strengths and weaknesses. Don't want to bother with technical crap? Get a console. Want 60fps, cheaper gaming, or don't want to aim with a gamepad? Get a PC.

    As for a 4k capable machine, nobody's building that at $500 without cutting serious corners somewhere, be it a PSU that's garbage, used parts, iffy rebates, or something else. The PC has never been able to compete on equivalent hardware price with consoles at launch.
     
  37. Burticus

    Burticus [H]ardness Supreme

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    Blasphemy! Say 50 hail Kyles and go do 200 pushups for penance.
     
  38. funkydmunky

    funkydmunky 2[H]4U

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    So many of these posts yet not a SINGLE link?
    Look I am a PC guy. Haven't owned a console since N64. But I have never been so PC fanatic that I ever was so disillusioned as to pretend that I could scrape any new PC together that would offer out of the box equivalent of this new console, which is technically as close to what a mid-level PC GFX is at the moment. It isn't even close in what off the shelf PC hardware would cost.
    Even with the no OS, no 4K Blue-Ray argument included.
    Still waiting on that parts list peeps.
     
  39. Vercinaigh

    Vercinaigh Gawd

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    When it comes out and is actually independently reviewed be happy to do so just like so many times before. I have no issues with consoles at all, but that statement made is BS, period. And it will be proven, like so many times before. People here spend far too much on many things because it makes them feel better, myself included. I don't have any use for this 1kwatt PSU, nor did it need to be from EVGA. But I did because I could, and wanted the warranty. i can run my current system on half the wattage it is on a Rosewill PSU quite a bit cheaper than a EVGA equiv that is built by the same people inside. Budget PC gaming is nothing new. Hell I'm willing to bet the G4560 can match the quality output on this machine. No it probably is not as powerful but that doesn't change that it should handle 4k 60FPS gaming at the similar settings that this consoles runs it since FPS in this case will be largely a GPU thing, which again isn't impressive either.
     
  40. funkydmunky

    funkydmunky 2[H]4U

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    No parts list = No parts list. Where is your parts list?
    Wow! Okay dude. Keep on truckin :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017