Court Rules Fan Subtitles on TV and Movies Are Illegal

Megalith

Megalith

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The fansubbing community in the Netherlands has taken a massive hit after a Dutch court ruled that subtitles can only be made and shared after permission is granted by rightsholders. Basically, it is now illegal to translate and embed dialog without authorization. I wonder if they will criminalize movie spoilers next.

“The main question is whether the creation and publishing of film subtitles is an act only reserved to the maker of the film work in question,” Beijer said “The second issue concerns a review of the conduct of BREIN against people who create and reproduce subtitles. The Free Subtitles Foundation anticipates that a court verdict will shed more light on these two themes.” This week the Amsterdam District Court handed down its decision and it was bad news for the fansubbers. The Court rejected all of their claims and sided with BREIN on each count. The Court found that subtitles can only be created and distributed after permission has been obtained from copyright holders. Doing so outside these parameters amounts to copyright infringement.
 
I'd look at the legality of this from "how are you getting the movie" - not necessarily the subtitles (which is what the court reviewed). If I buy a BluRay from Amazon (wherever), it is not modified and there is no legal way in the US to modify it. To get the modified copy, wouldn't I have to download a ripped/edited version of the movie? If I'm not mistaken, it is illegal per the DMCA to circumvent the encryption.

I may or may not have obtained the Stars Wars Despecialized Editions a while back. I did not hear a lot of screaming and shouting about this release of Star Wars when it is not a licensed, legal copy.
However, I bought the VHS tapes a long time ago (but not in a galaxy far far away), LaserDisc and the DVD versions. If the BluRay versions were not modified, I would have probably bought them as well. I'm actually hoping they release restored versions without the George Lucas modifications he decided to make. Sorry, Han shot first. Period. (Sorry, way off topic now).
 
You do normally need permission from the copyright holder to create a derivative work no (or at least if you want to release it)?
steakman1971 said:
Sorry, Han shot first. Period. (Sorry, way off topic now).
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I thought Han was the only one to shoot, that sounds like you're implying Greedo got a shot off?
 
Looking into it it doesn't appear like the Netherlands has extensive fair use laws, they seem to be pretty limited. So it's not too surprising that a Dutch court would rule fansubs as illegal as they wouldn't fall under fair use protection.
 
steakman1971 said:
I'd look at the legality of this from "how are you getting the movie" - not necessarily the subtitles (which is what the court reviewed). If I buy a BluRay from Amazon (wherever), it is not modified and there is no legal way in the US to modify it. To get the modified copy, wouldn't I have to download a ripped/edited version of the movie? If I'm not mistaken, it is illegal per the DMCA to circumvent the encryption.

I may or may not have obtained the Stars Wars Despecialized Editions a while back. I did not hear a lot of screaming and shouting about this release of Star Wars when it is not a licensed, legal copy.
However, I bought the VHS tapes a long time ago (but not in a galaxy far far away), LaserDisc and the DVD versions. If the BluRay versions were not modified, I would have probably bought them as well. I'm actually hoping they release restored versions without the George Lucas modifications he decided to make. Sorry, Han shot first. Period. (Sorry, way off topic now).
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You can add subs using just the subtitles file and a movie, it uses timings to display the text overlay without altering the base media. you can use VLC to play both a movie and the subs together, but I'm sure there are other ways.
 
Oniigumo said:
You can add subs using just the subtitles file and a movie, it uses timings to display the text overlay without altering the base media. you can use VLC to play both a movie and the subs together, but I'm sure there are other ways.
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You can do this in Kodi also.. I have a few movies that never came with English subs , so I just downloaded the file some one made. Works great.
 
Well that's stupid. Many thousands of fans rely on hobbyist to get subtitles for their favorite movies and shows.

Fansubbers are filling a market hole. If they don't want them doing that they should fill the hole themselves. Instead they spend money on clearing the fans out and boarding up the hole.

Not to mention that fansubs are usually of better quality than official ones churned out by some slave wage in a dim room days on end.

When I though copyright trolls couldn't get any more idiotic and ruthless.
 
Of course the bigger question, IMHO, is who really cares what a court in the Netherlands says (unless you live in Holland)?
 
Derangel said:
Looking into it it doesn't appear like the Netherlands has extensive fair use laws, they seem to be pretty limited. So it's not too surprising that a Dutch court would rule fansubs as illegal as they wouldn't fall under fair use protection.
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M76 said:
Well that's stupid. Many thousands of fans rely on hobbyist to get subtitles for their favorite movies and shows.

Fansubbers are filling a market hole. If they don't want them doing that they should fill the hole themselves. Instead they spend money on clearing the fans out and boarding up the hole.

Not to mention that fansubs are usually of better quality than official ones churned out by some slave wage in a dim room days on end.

When I though copyright trolls couldn't get any more idiotic and ruthless.
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in what world is it fair use to download illegal copies of movies, then either altered (adding subtitles) or unaltered release them to the public to download? Under no circumstance is that legal anywhere that had copyright laws. There is no fair use that allows you to pirate every movie and show created and post them online for the world.
 
Exavior said:
in what world is it fair use to download illegal copies of movies, then either altered (adding subtitles) or unaltered release them to the public to download? Under no circumstance is that legal anywhere that had copyright laws. There is no fair use that allows you to pirate every movie and show created and post them online for the world.
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Who says you have to pirate the movie? While that is very likely what the majority of people watching do you don't have to pirate to create fan subs. Rip the show or movie from a disc using something like MKV and use whatever program(s) needed to make fan subs. Some media players even allow separate subtitles to be loaded in via a separate file. I believe VLC has that feature.
 
Exavior said:
in what world is it fair use to download illegal copies of movies, then either altered (adding subtitles) or unaltered release them to the public to download? Under no circumstance is that legal anywhere that had copyright laws. There is no fair use that allows you to pirate every movie and show created and post them online for the world.
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Huh? What are YOU talking about, man? We're talking about freely made and distributed SUBTITLES, NOT MOVIES OR TV SHOWS. One != the other, and there are plenty of legit reasons to legally own a movie and want alternate subs. Ask any Anime fan that imports stuff from Japan that hasn't been released in the West. Ask anybody that has a disability and buys a movie that the distributor was too lazy to put subtitles on. The list goes on.
 
Exavior said:
in what world is it fair use to download illegal copies of movies, then either altered (adding subtitles) or unaltered release them to the public to download? Under no circumstance is that legal anywhere that had copyright laws. There is no fair use that allows you to pirate every movie and show created and post them online for the world.
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What movies? What alteration? We're speaking of damned text files here. This has nothing to do with uploading or downloading movies. You know nothing of the topic yet you try to hand out judgement.

Here we see a case of a technically illiterate judge who the lawyer somehow convinced that making subtitles on your own free time is somehow damaging to society and therefore should be prosecuted and punished.

And FYI copying for personal use is legal where I live. (And yeah that includes downloading and recording from TV / Radio) So you're wrong on both accounts even if it's irrelevant, because this is not about movies, this is about seperately distributed subtitles that you can use for your movie wherever you got the movie from.
 
I will admit is misunderstood the article slightly in that it made it sound like these were not just text files being uploaded but full movies with the subtitles added. That said the article does clearly state that one of their major concerns is the movies / shows being acquired via illegal methods to start with for the subtitles to then be created.

“There are several so-called release teams actively making films and TV series available from illegal sources and adding illegal subtitles for the Dutch market. This judgment makes it clear once again that this is illegal,” BREIN director Tim Kuik said in a statement.
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That very much makes it seem that they are making the movies and tv shows and NOT just a text file available for download. Which is where my above statements were spawned from.

I don't read dutch so I can't read the small 8 page PDF for the court filing.
 
In your defense, that is the typical way. Sub groups rip the show, sub it, and then upload the whole thing. Only the last part should be illegal. If they were only uploading the sub file, (and not the video), it should be made legal. However, the translated scripts still fall under copy write, and the judges decision is still likely correct from a legal standpoint, even if stupid from the point of view of common sense.

Crunchyroll was a good step towards monetized licensed distribution of English subbed content. However, you do not get the uncensored versions and sometimes their subs are just shit. They also don't carry a lot of stuff people are interested in. So there is still a large hole that fansub groups are going to fill regardless of legality.

Hilariously, in the 80's I bought Japanese anime on VHS through a service that would sub it for me. So, I got both the original VHS, and a copy with the sub on it. We have sure come a long way.
 
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mdburkey said:
Of course the bigger question, IMHO, is who really cares what a court in the Netherlands says (unless you live in Holland)?
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Ignorance is high with this one. 75% of the threads here discuss internal US matters that have absolutely no effect to the rest of the world, yet no-one comes moaning there about it
 
Mistral said:
Ignorance is high with this one. 75% of the threads here discuss internal US matters that have absolutely no effect to the rest of the world, yet no-one comes moaning there about it
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This guy didn't care about copyright laws in America, because he didn't live in America. That's what makes America different. America is like a super hero and we some unique super powers.

1454968072357.jpg

(Kim Dotcom)
 
westrock2000 said:
This guy didn't care about copyright laws in America, because he didn't live in America. That's what makes America different. America is like a super hero and we some unique super powers.

1454968072357.jpg

(Kim Dotcom)
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probably because movie studios use the office of homeland security like a personal guard.

nothing like being detained by federal agents because you dared to wear google glass to a movie theater.
 
So is it just the lack of good subs for Dutch that is causing this? If they ruled that uploading movies with new subtitles muxed in, yes I can see why they would rule against that, but that's more because you are uploading the video. If they are saying that creating a subtitle file for a movie that lacks good subtitles is illegal, I find it harder to support that view. Are they trying to say that available subtitles are likely to increase piracy, because if so, so is an internet connection, better take that away too!
 
Meh, it's the Dutch; not really the biggest defenders of personal freedom in the world. And the Netherlands is so small, it doesn't really matter anyway.
 
Fansubs are made for films/shows that westerners can't buy in the first place.

The subtitles are the least of the copyright infringements at issue here...
 
InorganicMatter said:
Fansubs are made for films/shows that westerners can't buy in the first place.

The subtitles are the least of the copyright infringements at issue here...
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That is not always the case. Fansubs are also made for shows or movie with bad releases. Maybe they were dubbed poorly or didn't release with a subtitle track. That's more common than you'd believe.
 
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