Coreteks: "Do you think AMD gives two shits about reviewers and influencers calling Zen 5 a fail...?"

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Gigantopithecus

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"...when they will be banking like crazy on the back of the AI craze not to mention the need to reduce datacenter power consumption that will drive upgrades across the board -- and all this at a time when Intel chips are dying left and right?"

Thought this was an interesting take:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A11d0uBhP_o

Succinctly, Zen 5 for the desktop isn't the point; the point is dropping power draw to increase density for the server market. Ryzen 9000 chips are recouping money by selling dies that don't make the Epyc cut.

I think this is a compelling argument given rising energy draws and rising energy costs. I can't help but also wonder whether AMD thinks Intel is no longer a competitor, but Qualcomm is?
 
I put up a thread the other day calling this cpu a flop. But, I do agree with the premise that desktop is not what this cpu was designed for, or best at. That we are getting server type cpus on the desktop and all that goes with it. AMD has that advantage with the chiplet design. In that light, the cpu May in fact be great!!! For gamers, not so much.
 
I wonder why AMD would even attempt to aim these at gamers. For better or worse, I'm sure AMD has noticed the clamoring for X3D chips. How many people, even here, were realistically going to buy a 9700X, even if it had say ...20% gaming uplift, before seeing what the 9XXX X3D chips bring to the table?
 
Why would AMD spend all that time and money sending them CPU to reviews if they did not care about reviewers and influencer ?

Their action, leave no doubt, obviously they do care. Same for massaging the performance graph when they made a pre-release presentation about them, if they did not care they could have simply put the numbers without much thought...

Were they ready and fine to take the hit, specially with the current intel offer, yeah that perfectly possible, but maybe the cpu as issues it is not just going as planned (launch schedule change, smt on vs off, logical core latency, linux vs windows, first batch send to reviewer that crash a lot, sometime faster but sometime slower than the previous).

I think the argument is much more about choosing to get better at avx512 and other datacenter type of calculation than about, dropping power ? Did they ? will see once epyc launch, 9950x as the same tdp than the 7950x for a reason.
 
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WilyKit said:
But it’s not really more efficient lol
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That's just the copium the faithful are using. All in all, this cpu release is a flop no matter how you try to spin it. Hell, I'm surprised that those people claiming the efficiency angle didn't right out drop that shit when GN released a pretty comprehensive analysis at how these CPUs are not more efficient at all.
 
ZeroBarrier said:
That's just the copium the faithful are using. All in all. This cpu release is a flop no matter how you try to spin it. Hell, I'm surprised that those people claiming the efficiency angle didn't right out drop that shit when GN released a pretty comprehensive analysis at how these CPUs are not more efficient at all.
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This is such a complicated question, cpu efficacy, each cpu have an graph for it and will change quite a bit around the task being done.

On phoronix, 9700x take 13-14% less energy compiling some code than a 7700, 10% less to do a render in blender, in some it took more, that let you pick the narrative you want....
 
Hrmmm:
My take is they're gearing up (or "setting the table" as Mike Clark said) for Zen 6 and Zen 7. If you listen to this, or read about it here (and I recommend you do if you're interested in this stuff) it's about adoption of new programming paradigms overall, software catching up to the hardware. To that end, it's not a flop, it's more a sidestep to build a foundation for the next generation of hardware and software.

To quote Mike Clark from the aforementioned interview (Bolding is mine)
Yeah, as we think of Zen 5 we needed a new foundation for more compute to drive future workloads that continue to stay on this cadence of double digit IPC per generation. So you know we have been at the original Zen was 4-wide [dispatch and] 6 ALU’s and we had done a lot of innovation to really you know leverage all those resources [in] Zen, Zen 2, Zen 3, Zen 4. But we really we’re not to be able to keep that up, so we really needed to reset that foundation of a wider unit, more ALUs, more multiplies, more branch units, and then be able to leverage that like we did with the originals then to provide innovation going forward.

Another key point I’d like to hit on is it’s also hard for software trying to leverage, let’s say something that has 6 ALUs and 8-wide dispatch, they don’t get the payback when they run it on our older architecture. So even if they’re you know trying to tune their code and building smarter algorithms, there’s no payback for them so they don’t end up doing it. Whereas now that we’ve built it, they’ll start innovating on the software side with it [and they’ll go], “Holy cow look what I can do, I’ll do this, and I can do that” and you’ll see the actual foundational lift play out in the future on Zen 6 even though it was really Zen 5 that set the table for that and let software innovate.
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Zen 6 release timing will probably be the kind of timeline required to implement the changes to software to adapt to the architecture(s)

For gamers however, it absolutely goes without saying, if you're buying now or in the coming 2-3 months, the 7800x3d is the deal to go for. But if you're buying for longevity - it's a much more difficult decision. The 9800x3d may be worth the wait.
 
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LukeTbk said:
This is such a complicated question, cpu efficacy, each cpu have an graph for it and will change quite a bit around the task being done.

On phoronix, 9700x take 13-14% less energy compiling some code than a 7700, 10% less to do a render in blender, in some it took more, that let you pick the narrative you want....
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Does it really win the efficiency crown when it’s really just trading blows? Heck at least when intel was resting on its laurels after Sandy Bridge, we actually got more efficient CPUs across the board with marginally better performance, across the board. I don’t think a benchmark exists where say a 2600k was more efficient than a 3770k much less more efficient while performing the same or better.
 
WilyKit said:
Does it really win the efficiency crown when it’s really just trading blows? Heck at least when intel was resting on its laurels after Sandy Bridge, we actually got more efficient CPUs across the board with marginally better performance, across the board. I don’t think a benchmark exists where say a 2600k was more efficient than a 3770k much less more efficient while performing the same or better.
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And for a lot of the wins, it is not by a special amount of gain I do not think.. but for the AVX stuff it can be impressive.
 
Keljian said:
Hrmmm:
My take is they're gearing up (or "setting the table" as Mike Clark said) for Zen 6 and Zen 7. If you listen to this, or read about it here (and I recommend you do if you're interested in this stuff) it's about adoption of new programming paradigms overall, software catching up to the hardware. To that end, it's not a flop, it's more a sidestep to build a foundation for the next generation of hardware and software.
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So my own takeaway is to sit out Zen 5 and wait until Zen 6. Early 2026? Summer 2026? That's when I will update motherboard, RAM. CPU and GPU for sure.
 
philb2 said:
So my own takeaway is to sit out Zen 5 and wait until Zen 6. Early 2026? Summer 2026? That's when I will update motherboard, RAM. CPU and GPU for sure.
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Your takeaways should be:
1. If you need a gaming or general purpose chip now, the 7800x3d is the one to go for before stock dries up, as the 9800x3d is unlikely to be a gigantic leap in terms of existing software, and prices are starting to rise.

2. If you don’t plan on upgrading in a generation or two, you should hold fast for three months and see if the 9800x3d comes out, opt for that if gaming is your focus and see if your budget can stretch for it. It most likely will be the same sort of price as the 7800x3d was at launch.

3. If you are in no rush to upgrade, wait till this time next year and see what timing zen 6 is due out (some sources say 2025) - make a decision then.

Or if you simply use productivity loads and need the fastest now, look at the 9xxx chips.

If this last few gens has taught us anything, It’s that cpus are fast enough in the midrange for the majority of loads right now.
 
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Keljian said:
Your takeaways should be:
1. If you need a gaming or general purpose chip now, the 7800x3d is the one to go for before stock dries up, as the 9800x3d is unlikely to be a gigantic leap in terms of existing software, and prices are starting to rise.
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I don't. I'm running a 7900X CPU on a system with 64 RG of relatively slow RAM (my bad in picking this) on an ASUS Strix E-A. (Should have gotten the Strix E-E).
Keljian said:
2. If you don’t plan on upgrading in a generation or two, you should hold fast for three months and see if the 9800x3d comes out, opt for that if gaming is your focus and see if your budget can stretch for it. It most likely will be the same sort of price as the 7800x3d was at launch.
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I will only upgrade when I see a clear benefit to doing so. Of course, if the motherboard craps out, then I have to upgrade, but that is unlikely.
Keljian said:
3. If you are in no rush to upgrade, wait till this time next year and see what timing zen 6 is due out (some sources say 2025) - make a decision then.
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No rush.

Keljian said:
Or if you simply use productivity loads and need the fastest now, look at the 9xxx chips.
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I use productivity tools plus Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop. Those put some load on my system. Adobe is steadily advancing in terrms of AI and GPU-based processing.
Keljian said:
If this last few gens has taught us anything, It’s that cpus are fast enough in the midrange for the majority of loads right now.
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My next move is a good GPU upgrade. But I'm going to wait until probably Black Friday sales if I'm going to upgrade this year. And I haven't decided yet between NVidia and AMD for the GPU.
 
I don’t get why you would upgrade every generation philb2

I mean you’re implying you would if there was a leap
 
Keljian said:
I don’t get why you would upgrade every generation philb2

I mean you’re implying you would if there was a leap
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Well,

I'm not happy with my current rig. Sad to say, I was in kind of a rush when i picked out the motherboard and the RAM. My bad. I picked the ASUS Strix E-A when I should have gotten the Strix E-E model, because I found a Google listing that was cheaper. With the RAN, I have had good luck with Crucial in the past, so I just ordered Crucial RAM again, not realizing that Crucial was basically quitting the performance segment of the market. And I was happy when I got an EVGA 3060 Ti (8 GB) on a waitlist at list price, but that was a while ago.

Usually I go several generations between upgrades, like a 5-6 year cycle. But this time, I feel like I'm almost hoping for a good reason for an upgrade, And I might even do trade-ins with Newegg.
 
philb2 said:
Well,

I'm not happy with my current rig. Sad to say, I was in kind of a rush when i picked out the motherboard and the RAM. My bad. I picked the ASUS Strix E-A when I should have gotten the Strix E-E model, because I found a Google listing that was cheaper. With the RAN, I have had good luck with Crucial in the past, so I just ordered Crucial RAM again, not realizing that Crucial was basically quitting the performance segment of the market. And I was happy when I got an EVGA 3060 Ti (8 GB) on a waitlist at list price, but that was a while ago.

Usually I go several generations between upgrades, like a 5-6 year cycle. But this time, I feel like I'm almost hoping for a good reason for an upgrade, And I might even do trade-ins with Newegg.
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Why not just sell the ram, and replace with some you want? As for the motherboard, what in particular is wrong with it?
 
Keljian said:
Why not just sell the ram, and replace with some you want?
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I guess I could do that. I will have to see if Newegg offers a tradein. Right now there is so much s--- going on in my life that I need to simplfiy things, not add more complications like trying to see RAM on eBay or in this forum.

Keljian said:
As for the motherboard, what in particular is wrong with it?
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The motherboard is 2 x 16x and 1 x 1x. The Strix E-E has a 1 x 4x slot. I have SATA drives, including SSDs, so I need an extra SATA controller for additional ports. I also wanted to add USB ports. biut a 1x USB card has limited performance. A 4x USB card wouidl have much better performance.

I also have a Phanteks case that I'm not satisfied with, so I wouild use a general system upgrade to replace that case.
 
philb2 said:
I guess I could do that. I will have to see if Newegg offers a tradein. Right now there is so much s--- going on in my life that I need to simplfiy things, not add more complications like trying to see RAM on eBay or in this forum.


The motherboard is 2 x 16x and 1 x 1x. The Strix E-E has a 1 x 4x slot. I have SATA drives, including SSDs, so I need an extra SATA controller for additional ports. I also wanted to add USB ports. biut a 1x USB card has limited performance. A 4x USB card wouidl have much better performance.

I also have a Phanteks case that I'm not satisfied with, so I wouild use a general system upgrade to replace that case.
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If it's bugging you that much, just get it done
 
There's a couple of things going on with Zen 5.

The first was the team that developed it refused to use the Zen 4 development kit and instead updated the Zen 2 development kit to make it compatible. In retro-spect AMD is internally examining if the design had any regressions and how to fix those with Zen 6.
The second was AMD accidently assumed their testing design platform would perform the same as the end user's system, In Windows 8 and earlier the results were the same, but with Windows 10 and Windows 11's increased security model AMD's processor runs slower without running games and benchmarks in Administrator mode. AMD has worked with Microsoft and the upcoming Windows 11 2nd half 2024 release will restore some of the lost performance. AMD is investigating to see if other driver and firmware updates can improve performance in the future.

All in all I think Zen 5 may underperform by 5-7% compared to AMD's expectations for many users....
 
if thoses are not faking to care (why would they care about them thinking they matter or not ?):
https://hardforum.com/threads/amd-p...screpancies-to-change-its-qa-methods.2036594/

They do seem to care for the performance in windows of regular users and reviewers-influencer... we have our answer.

When Apple is ready to miss on cheap visibility and ads from LTT, gamernexus or HUB, it does show and it start with not sending them free stuff, creating guidelines and giving them interviews.
 
I think AMD realises that the tech enthusiasts pay attention to reviews and the tech industry in general, and those tech enthusiasts are many times the same people making the purchasing decisions on small-to-medium enterprise fit-outs.

Just like how the 4090 is the best ad campaign for the 4060: some products make the company more money than the GP on their BOM. Similarly: Doing well and being known in the consumer sector influences enterprise greatly.
 
The tech industry could be running their own in-house test.

But for the customer segment, gamernexus, LTT video can get in the millions of views and get repeated everywhere....

Good review on a popular channel are a giant (some get more views than a late night show) and the best possible ads, directly into the target audience eyes.

There can be people using it in their personal life, getting in purchasing power longer term stuff going on (maybe more in an macOS-linux-Windows than between very similar x86 cpus way, but still there), but even in the first weeks actual sales, word of mouths from that little industry probably matter, thus them very much trying to influence what they say.

Intel giving a lot of content to creator helped the coverage of the ARC cpu, LTT after visiting foundry around the world and speaking a lot with engineer will bash their product respectfully when they do
 
The sales champ laughs at the new guy.
Screenshot_20240904_230106.jpg
 
Yeah it's quite clear, especially with AMD applying the 7950X3D-style core parking to focus gaming loads on the better die while also having a worse die on there, that the Ryzen 9000 series is where they're sending the scrap material from their TSMC wafers when the real focus is the EPYC CPUs. Especially since there is zero change in the I/O die.

Zen 5 is a server-focused product. Here's hoping Zen 6 will have some tangible benefits in the mainstream packaging of it.
 
NightReaver said:
I wonder why AMD would even attempt to aim these at gamers. For better or worse, I'm sure AMD has noticed the clamoring for X3D chips. How many people, even here, were realistically going to buy a 9700X, even if it had say ...20% gaming uplift, before seeing what the 9XXX X3D chips bring to the table?
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Honestly the X3D should just be labeled the gaming chip and the non X should be the productivity label. But hey I am sure someone argued that would eat some immediate sales of the non X chips.
 
polyh3dron said:
Yeah it's quite clear, especially with AMD applying the 7950X3D-style core parking to focus gaming loads on the better die while also having a worse die on there, that the Ryzen 9000 series is where they're sending the scrap material from their TSMC wafers when the real focus is the EPYC CPUs. Especially since there is zero change in the I/O die.

Zen 5 is a server-focused product. Here's hoping Zen 6 will have some tangible benefits in the mainstream packaging of it.
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Maybe early on but this has happend before. Back in the tri core days they were the ones that didnt bin just right as quads and getting them to run as quads wasnt a good bet. A few months later...they were just quads sold as tri chips and all ran as quads all day long. It's why I tend not to buy new chips till at least 6 months after release in the hope I dont get a early sample.
 
With the Intel cpu issues and these Ryzen 9000 being so pricey, some deals can be found on Ryzen 7000 now and maybe what was needed to boost sales on that product line, Amazon selling the 7700x cheaper than the 9600x blowed my mind.
 
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