comptia opposes right to repair bill

jiminator

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
11,548
thats the problem. given a choice between an applicant with a cert vs one with 5 years on the job, it is not much of a choice. you will still need training to get up to speed, the other guy may be able to come in and work. I mean its something, but its not a magic solution
 

KarsusTG

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 27, 2010
Messages
3,076
That's actually a good thing. The reason they did that is to be ANSI accredited. IT is slowly growing up as a profession and in professions that have certification and licensure, the certifications have to meet certain standards. One of those is the concept of continuing education. You don't get to become certified and then get recognized as an expert forever. You have to keep your knowledge current. So you have to take continuing education in your field, submit that, and get recertified every few years. Yes the cert companies like the recurring money, but the bigger issue is that if you want your cert to be considered valid for things like the DoD 8570 Baseline Certifications, it has to be an ANSI accredited cert which means it has to have continuing education. If you look at their matrix you find that the old school CompTIA certs aren't applicable, only the new ones with continuing education.

Now as for opposing the right to repair? I have no idea why they are being asshats. That is complete BS.
I think that can be true for some limited sections of security+ and such. But I don't believe most of these things changed so much that you should have to rapidly renew or replace them. Honestly, if you got your A+ certification in 2001, I cannot fathom a reason why you would need to renew it, even to this day. Even networking has not changed THAT much, nor is it changing that quickly.
 

PhaseNoise

2[H]4U
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
2,459
How are kids going to tinker and learn and have aspirations and initiative and desire to go after the cert if they aren't allowed to play in the first place? They went know what they are missing
Well, it doesn't garner a cert, but how I foster innovation in my house: I do various things to block porn at the gateway.

You'd be surprised how quick teenage boys become Neo when there's an obstacle between them and a picture of a booby.

And now I realized I missed an opportunity to make them hate me more / great humor for me: actually printing out certs for the ones who successfully bypassed it, thinking I didn't know.
 

blackmomba

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
182
thats the problem. given a choice between an applicant with a cert vs one with 5 years on the job, it is not much of a choice. you will still need training to get up to speed, the other guy may be able to come in and work. I mean its something, but its not a magic solution
Not a problem necessarily considering you could be up against a guy with no certs or good experience. Take care of yourself and what you need for the position you're after.
 

Sycraft

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
4,595
I think that can be true for some limited sections of security+ and such. But I don't believe most of these things changed so much that you should have to rapidly renew or replace them. Honestly, if you got your A+ certification in 2001, I cannot fathom a reason why you would need to renew it, even to this day. Even networking has not changed THAT much, nor is it changing that quickly.
I mean you can argue what the time table should be, just telling you how ANSI works with regards to certs. Continuing education and renewal is required if you want ANSI accreditation, and the government requires ANSI accreditation if your cert is going to be accepted. It's the same situation with GIAC certs, ISC2 certs, etc.

Also keep in mind the point of continuing education isn't just because there are new things you need to learn, but to demonstrate you are using and keeping those skills current. Just because you knew something back in 2001 doesn't mean you know it now, if you never use it. You can see that in your own life with stuff you learned in high school. Like math, while I remember the general concepts from trig and calculus and such, I am no good at them anymore. Used to be you could give me an equation and I could manipulate it to the right form and then do integration on it. Ya well, I never need to do that, so I can't anymore. I could re-learn, of course, but it would be re-learning, it wouldn't be like "Oh ya I remember this." One way to keep that from happening is continual learning, if you keep learning in a field, you keep your knowledge up.
 

IdiotInCharge

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Messages
13,528
umm no. You don't have to in most cases.
I recommend looking up DoD 8570. You don't have to have CompTIA certs, but you do have to meet 8570 or face termination as an employee, or face accusations of nonperformance as a contractor, which are devastating.
 

M76

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
10,468
the certifications have to meet certain standards. .
They mean less than nothing in regards of the quality of work the certified person / company will do. I should know, we have a bunch of certifications, the standards of which we only pretend to adhere to.

A lot of people here are saying those certs are useless. How else am I going to prove to potential employers that I know what I am doing? I doubt they are going to pull my application out of a hundred others with IT degrees and say "Hey, let's give this guy a shot."
What will makes them pull your application out is presentation. It's doubtful you'd be the only applicant with any certifications, so it's not a deciding factor.
Sure at some companies you might get a better chance with one than without it to get a face to face meeting. But in the end its always actual experience and knowledge that matters.
The certification doesn't prove you can do a job, it proves you paid someone to give you a piece of paper.
 

Grimlaking

2[H]4U
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
3,188
You know what other companies love recurring certifications. Brain dump companies. Pay them 50 or so bucks study the brain dump as well as some practical knowledge and boom you're certified. Congratulations.
 

Dark12

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
1,683
You know what other companies love recurring certifications. Brain dump companies. Pay them 50 or so bucks study the brain dump as well as some practical knowledge and boom you're certified. Congratulations.
Every medical field requires continuing education too.


They mean less than nothing in regards of the quality of work the certified person / company will do. I should know, we have a bunch of certifications, the standards of which we only pretend to adhere to.


What will makes them pull your application out is presentation. It's doubtful you'd be the only applicant with any certifications, so it's not a deciding factor.
Sure at some companies you might get a better chance with one than without it to get a face to face meeting. But in the end its always actual experience and knowledge that matters.
The certification doesn't prove you can do a job, it proves you paid someone to give you a piece of paper.
thanks for the info sir
 

M76

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
10,468
thanks for the info sir
That's my experience, don't take it as some universal truth. If you can easily get a certificate there is no harm in it. I speak more as an employer than a job seeker, when I say certificates are meaningless. Last time I was interviewing for a job was like 8 years ago.
 

d3athf1sh

Gawd
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
541
umm no. You don't have to in most cases.


Most jobs prefer actual exp over certs, "certs are nice to have - but actual work experience is more important". In terms of private companies, most of them will tell you - thats great - we don't care.
i am talking about GOVERNMENT JOBS.
 

IdiotInCharge

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Messages
13,528
They mean less than nothing in regards of the quality of work the certified person / company will do.
This is true; even where they're mandatory, they represent more of a pre-interview gatekeeper.

Having a certification means that you can do whatever it takes to get that certification -- nothing more, but it's enough for some things.


[we've had people with graduate engineering degrees fail Security+ after attending a bootcamp; some people can't grasp security despite proven intelligence...]
 

JosiahBradley

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
1,786
I worked at the state level in IT for nearly a decade. I have no certs. Now I work in the private sector in silicon valley, still no certs. I've got access to billions in hardware and software and the trust was gained based on my work experience and continued good performance on the job. Sure if you want to work for the DoD that's one thing, but meh to all this cert nonsense outside of that. Even people who learn on their own and actually care about technology and have a passion for it are better candidates for IT work in big tech. I run many interviews for my company and I don't even look at a resume before conducting a technical interview because what matters is actual skill.

With that said CompTIA can go fuck themselves if they don't want people fixing their own shit. That's how I and many of us here learned first hand and made careers out of it. I'm not saying continued education is bad, but you can do it without such rigorous requirements in lots of fields (sans medical and some fed stuff).
 

Dark12

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
1,683
I worked at the state level in IT for nearly a decade. I have no certs. Now I work in the private sector in silicon valley, still no certs. I've got access to billions in hardware and software and the trust was gained based on my work experience and continued good performance on the job. Sure if you want to work for the DoD that's one thing, but meh to all this cert nonsense outside of that. Even people who learn on their own and actually care about technology and have a passion for it are better candidates for IT work in big tech. I run many interviews for my company and I don't even look at a resume before conducting a technical interview because what matters is actual skill.

With that said CompTIA can go fuck themselves if they don't want people fixing their own shit. That's how I and many of us here learned first hand and made careers out of it. I'm not saying continued education is bad, but you can do it without such rigorous requirements in lots of fields (sans medical and some fed stuff).
Thank you for the info. And same to everyone sharing their net and sec+ experience and stories.

I am going to be diving in to that world this year and I’ma but nervous. I like hardware, but the network+ study material looks whack.
 

IdiotInCharge

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Messages
13,528
but the network+ study material looks whack.
I started looking at Net+ some years back, while holding a Sec+, and I stopped when I got to token ring networks.

If the recommended solution isn't to rip that out and throw it away on sight, the cert is looking to validate the wrong knowledge.


Now, for Sec+- my advice is to take a class. The material is broad and there's just enough depth- all in 'vendor-neutral' CompTIA-speak!- that a guiding hand is the surest way to navigate to success.

Failing that, find practice tests however you can and work to understand not just what the questions are asking but also how. You can be well versed in every topic the exam covers and still fall short due to how questions are asked.
 

elite.mafia

Broke Back [H]
Joined
Aug 23, 2004
Messages
12,282
I have done a few practice exams for A+, and most of the questions on the practice exams were like, which of the following was created specifically for "the internet of things" - is it :
a) bluetooth
b) z-wave
c) Wireless 802.11AC
d) 4G LTE


Somebody please try and guess the correct answer. No cheating.

Also: how do these bogus multiple choice questions about what technology is for X add up to x years of work experience in the field???
 

elite.mafia

Broke Back [H]
Joined
Aug 23, 2004
Messages
12,282
My guess is Z-wave.



They don't, and shouldn't be considered to. Like a degree, they're used as a entry benchmark.
I've seen it advertised as being equal to having x years in the field... will have to find where, pretty sure it said that on facebook under one of their ads.
 

IdiotInCharge

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Messages
13,528
I've seen it advertised as being equal to having x years in the field... will have to find where, pretty sure it said that on facebook under one of their ads.
And some organizations represent them as such on job announcements, but as FlawleZ said, that will never be the case. A certification may prove more knowledge on the part of the holder than experience, but it will never be equivalent to actually doing the work.
 

elite.mafia

Broke Back [H]
Joined
Aug 23, 2004
Messages
12,282
No degree, certification, honor, award, or academic achievement is equal to experience in the field.
I agree, but I know I've seen that advertised somewhere, if not by comptia, maybe it was by a school offering their certification.
 

Ur_Mom

I'm Not Serious
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
20,133
thats the problem. given a choice between an applicant with a cert vs one with 5 years on the job, it is not much of a choice. you will still need training to get up to speed, the other guy may be able to come in and work. I mean its something, but its not a magic solution
What about the guy with no experience and no certifications vs. the guy with hobby experience and the A+ cert?

Could be a guy just looking for a job for 6 weeks and then leaving vs. the guy that is willing to invest his time and money into a certification as part of his career.

Certs aren't the magic solution and they prove you can take an exam and should know the basics. Experience goes along with that. Experience trumps all, but having that cert can be a positive for the applicant (shows that you're continuously learning and updating technology, etc.) and the employer (partner status, etc.).

It helps with the overall package. Certs + experience + willingness to learn + passion + size of cock + length of time at each employer (job hoppers suck).

Right to repair? CompTIA may be gaining a political advantage, but losing a lot of cred by those that hold their certifications. They still hold power with HR, so it's not going to kill them. But, there are definitely a lot of people bitching. For another 2 weeks and it'll be forgotten.
 

cyklondx

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
419
i am talking about GOVERNMENT JOBS.
Yes. Most of them do not require any certificates at all.


ex.
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/551175700

Please note: "Desired certifications"
Something desired does not mean, must have. It would state "Required Certifications".

In most cases ex.
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/545275900



In required qualifications
Education/Exp "a field closely related to the subject matter of the position."


Most IT jobs in gov are poorly paid, but have no specialized educational requirement, mostly its the microsoft, and similar big corps that require the certs as they have no real way to evaluate you - and they want to make additional $ selling you certs.

so back to topic, for most IT gov jobs you don't even need bachelor degree. (You can have highschool or sometimes not even that - as long as you posses the skills and exp in the trade)
 

IdiotInCharge

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Messages
13,528
As a 2210 job... certs will likely be required to do the work, but not necessarily to get hired for it.
 

jiminator

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
11,548
What about the guy with no experience and no certifications vs. the guy with hobby experience and the A+ cert?

Could be a guy just looking for a job for 6 weeks and then leaving vs. the guy that is willing to invest his time and money into a certification as part of his career.
if those are the only job applicants then the HR person should be fired.
 

cyklondx

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
419
if those are the only job applicants then the HR person should be fired.
too bad if they are gov hr - they will not be fired. ~ y they look instead of certificates schools etc - actual experience in industry for many years.
 

xx0xx

Gawd
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
629
PC Repair jobs often like to see A+.... and the same company that creates that test opposes right-to-repair?

Oof...

I've seen certs help during hiring process, but then again, I've seen multiple instances of where people have certifications and none of the actual skills/knowledge. They just basically did rote memorization and passed a test. That makes them feel kinda useless to me, at least as an indicator of anything. Only useful has a resume-booster.
 

Ur_Mom

I'm Not Serious
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
20,133
if those are the only job applicants then the HR person should be fired.
Most likely it'll be a small PC repair shop or something where the owner is the HR person. Getting into a large corporation "entry level" IT, you need some experience. The small PC repair shops, Geek Squad, etc. are the ones where you can start your career. Help desk as a larger place you still need some kind of foundation and are easily moved aside if you don't have those qualifications.
 

Fix Me

Gawd
Joined
Mar 20, 2007
Messages
693
Yes. Most of them do not require any certificates at all.


ex.
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/551175700

Please note: "Desired certifications"
Something desired does not mean, must have. It would state "Required Certifications".

In most cases ex.
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/545275900



In required qualifications
Education/Exp "a field closely related to the subject matter of the position."


Most IT jobs in gov are poorly paid, but have no specialized educational requirement, mostly its the microsoft, and similar big corps that require the certs as they have no real way to evaluate you - and they want to make additional $ selling you certs.

so back to topic, for most IT gov jobs you don't even need bachelor degree. (You can have highschool or sometimes not even that - as long as you posses the skills and exp in the trade)
I feel like you're arguing semantics. If "Desired" means "Requried" then they are "Required" regardless of what you think the phrase should mean.
 

MrCaffeineX

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 22, 2011
Messages
1,450
I am trying to get out of healthcare and into IT. I plan to start with my Net+ cert.

A lot of people here are saying those certs are useless. How else am I going to prove to potential employers that I know what I am doing? I doubt they are going to pull my application out of a hundred others with IT degrees and say "Hey, let's give this guy a shot."
In my experience, your degree and any relevant certifications are necessary to get you through the HR resume filter; however, if you know the right person in the organization that you would like to work for, they don't care about the piece of paper as long as you can do the job.
 

cyklondx

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
419
I feel like you're arguing semantics. If "Desired" means "Requried" then they are "Required" regardless of what you think the phrase should mean.
Its not semantics... desired doesn't mean required...

if they were required on the pages i linked to gov jobs in it... there is required part... now that we have required - desired doesn't mean required. It means its nice to have.
upload_2020-1-27_10-7-6.png
 

NickJames

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
6,668
I think that can be true for some limited sections of security+ and such. But I don't believe most of these things changed so much that you should have to rapidly renew or replace them. Honestly, if you got your A+ certification in 2001, I cannot fathom a reason why you would need to renew it, even to this day. Even networking has not changed THAT much, nor is it changing that quickly.
Not to mention your job tends to evolve with tech. The guy who's been doing database work from 2010-2020 who hasn't redone his certs since 2005 would probably be more if not just as qualified as the guy with 5 years of experience and certs from 2015.
 

GoodBoy

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 29, 2004
Messages
1,748
Its not semantics... desired doesn't mean required...

if they were required on the pages i linked to gov jobs in it... there is required part... now that we have required - desired doesn't mean required. It means its nice to have.
View attachment 218714
Well I can tell you that for DoD jobs, you gotta have Security+. If the job posting only says "Desired", it is to get more bites for the job. If you are hired, you have to get Security+ either within 6 months, or before you start.
 

NickJames

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
6,668
Its not semantics... desired doesn't mean required...

if they were required on the pages i linked to gov jobs in it... there is required part... now that we have required - desired doesn't mean required. It means its nice to have.
View attachment 218714
The wording on the ending part is what leaves it open. 90% of government jobs are worded like this. I can tell you from experience they don't care if you have a G.E.D. as long as you have the skills/experience/questionnaire knowledge to hit the high point criteria for your resume to be forwarded. It's a completely separate office/agency that runs a computer point algorithim to pre-select eligible candidates. So the people who get final pick have nothing to do with USAJobs, they just get a bunch of a pre-select applicants/resumes in the mail which they then select the top 10 best looking ones for interview.
 

Ur_Mom

I'm Not Serious
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
20,133
Not to mention your job tends to evolve with tech. The guy who's been doing database work from 2010-2020 who hasn't redone his certs since 2005 would probably be more if not just as qualified as the guy with 5 years of experience and certs from 2015.
On the flipside, we still have sys admins that refuse to learn any newer OS versions because they just don't like them. Won't learn cloud technologies because of privacy issues. If you don't keep learning and evolving in this industry you're a dinosaur and out pretty quick.

Overall, though, you're right. Having that guy with the NT4.0 cert probably realized that once he had the job and experience, certs didn't matter. He could grow within the company and gain the experience. The certs are nice, a good way to prove you know the material, a nice structured learning experience with a "final exam" (cert). But, they shouldn't be mandatory.
 

NickJames

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
6,668
On the flipside, we still have sys admins that refuse to learn any newer OS versions because they just don't like them. Won't learn cloud technologies because of privacy issues. If you don't keep learning and evolving in this industry you're a dinosaur and out pretty quick.
Yeah a lot depends on the branch of government as well. The DoD tends to function with decades old software that's patched just barely enough to function on a secure level. Where I worked we were constantly involved in beta deployments for the OS and various applications so we weren't more than 4-5 years behind, which isn't bad by government standards, but it kept us learning and adapting to new tech (which I kept up with at home anyway). The older generation would retire by the time they had to learn anything new.
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2017
Messages
540
Yeah a lot depends on the branch of government as well. The DoD tends to function with decades old software that's patched just barely enough to function on a secure level. Where I worked we were constantly involved in beta deployments for the OS and various applications so we weren't more than 4-5 years behind, which isn't bad by government standards, but it kept us learning and adapting to new tech (which I kept up with at home anyway). The older generation would retire by the time they had to learn anything new.
Sounds just like my gubment IT job minus the DoD.
Also, I have no certs or degree (yet, curently in school for CIT), but I have worked my way up in my 1st IT job and eventually was their best tech, then left for the gubment job because of drastically higher pay.
Certs aren't neccesarily needed or super useful, but they are not going to make you less smart or less desirable. They can only help, however much that may be.
Experience, especially if you are able to demonstrate to them, is infinitely more valuable
 

Fix Me

Gawd
Joined
Mar 20, 2007
Messages
693
Its not semantics... desired doesn't mean required...

if they were required on the pages i linked to gov jobs in it... there is required part... now that we have required - desired doesn't mean required. It means its nice to have.
View attachment 218714
It doesn't, except when it does. I don't know how else to explain this. If the vocab of the hiring company means "required" it is required, again, regardless of what you think it should mean or the accepted definition. If you don't like it, you don't have to work there. Personally, I would not want to work for the government for this or any other administration for exactly these kind of reasons. They have their own way of doing things and their own lingo.
 

German Muscle

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
6,134
As a holder of a lifetime A+ cert(more flexing on lifetime and not the A+ ;) ) i find this right in line with Comptias shenanigans. Anyone i hear talking about certs i make sure to tell them that comptias for the most part are a cashgrab and worthless. Most of the time its networking and i tell them to instead get a cisco cert.

I was contemplating getting a Sec+ since all of the GOVT IT jobs here require it to even be hired. Apparently to get Admin credentials you must have Sec+. I think im going to hold out for something else. At this point im totally done with Comptia.
 

Dark12

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
1,683
This is some useful info.

I haven't done IT since geek squad 10 years ago. There's no other way to prove I have a tech skill set without getting certs I think.
 
Top