"Cleanest" version of W10?

Discussion in 'Operating Systems' started by jiminator, Dec 27, 2019.

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  1. jiminator

    jiminator Capt Obvious

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    Will be upgrading shortly from 8.1 Pro to a new AMD system with W10.
    The "free" upgrade was a bit of a disaster, so this will be clean.
    I currently use remote desktop and so I figure 10 pro.
    But... I'd prefer to avoid the bloatware, spyware, and useless features if at all possible.
    Windows store, cortana, or whatever it is, and so on.
    I believe there was an extremely slim version of W10 released some time ago. Is that still available?
    Or will it be a matter of installing then disabling? thanks!
     
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  2. AltTabbins

    AltTabbins [H]ard as it Gets

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    The “slim” version of Windows 10 is called Enterprise LTSC. It’s not considered a retail SKU of Windows and was meant for single purpose machines, not home computers. It works for some people, others (myself included) found that it was missing key things that I needed. There are libraries or files missing that can cause issues with consumer software which is what turned me back to Windows 10 pro. I had issues with games, with anti cheat software often not working making it so I couldn’t play multiplayer games. Wow would boot me often too. It wasn’t worth the extra work and headache for me. Licensing is tricky too. There are legal ways to buy a license but it’s a lot of hoops and considerably more expensive. If you don’t mind the moral gray area of buying a used key from a country where it’s legal to resell keys, you can get them off eBay cheap. In my opinion the best option is to use Pro and go through a debloating script or use software to remove what you don’t want.
     
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  3. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It is your computer so you are free to do as you please. However, I would recommend just doing the upgrade and then wiping and reinstalling from scratch. I am certain you have a relatively up to date computer so it will run just fine without doing anything special. If you still need or want to do something, run some removal scripts afterwards and enjoy.

    Seriously, there is no bloat because, at least in my opinion, bloat was something back in the ram constrained days that slowed the computer down. (Think old Norton antivirus back in the early 2000's)
     
  4. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    You can disable things and they return with every update. It's a war of attrition, soon you'll get tired to fixing it and just succumb.
     
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  5. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

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    MSMG Toolkit is the answer to getting rid of the bloat before it can even take root. Don't listen to people that try to convince you "it's not bloat" - as long as MS is deceptive and dishonest, with things like no telemetry Off switch or not truly disabling Cortana when you thought you disabled Cortana, it's MSMG Toolkit to clip W10's wings and keep the OS honest.

    Trying to rip stuff out post-install is futile because MS has increasingly hardcoded anti-removal on many things they think people will be forced to use if it can't be removed. F that.
     
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  6. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Right dude, except that now certain things initially or later on will not function correctly, because a critical function works no more, since it was removed before install. Look, it may not be stuff a person wants and they may want it removed but, it is not bloat so please, let us define bloat properly. In fact, it has been at least 15 years or so since tweaking was even necessary to get the most performance out of a windows box.
     
  7. SuperSubZero

    SuperSubZero 2[H]4U

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    I don't quite understand what this means. A lot of optional stuff can be removed.
     
  8. SuperSubZero

    SuperSubZero 2[H]4U

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    I've never been a fan of that argument. Sure it's my PC. That doesn't make me an expert in writing operating systems. Part of how computers got to where they are is that their operation became simple. Part of that simplicity is yes, there is a Rube Goldberg Machine of moving parts hiding behind the GUI that I can't see nor comprehend. The best part is.. I don't have to. My PC will do the things I want to do, and be ready to do things I haven't imagined doing yet, and it will do those things to my satisfaction.

    I could have accepted a long time ago that yes, Windows 10 is going to by default drop stupid stuff like Candy Crush and Minecraft on my Start tiles. But oh.. Microsoft already has a *documented* way to slip a single file into a Windows 10 USB to prevent the vast majority of the default Start tile items from ever installing.. It's not powershell scripts (that is NOT MS's preferred way), but layoutmodification.xml. While people are screaming about all the junk Win10 installs by default, four years ago I stopped seeing all of that. Major version updates don't re-add them. Gee.. But y'all can keep yelling and screaming.
     
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  9. vick1000

    vick1000 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Stay offline and run WPD before going online and activating, remove and block whatever you choose. Or you can find a debloat script to run on github, or create/ find a debloated image to install from.
     
  10. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Tell me more about this xml file.
     
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  11. vick1000

    vick1000 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Pfft....I'm sorry, I just spit all over my KB.
     
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  12. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You just spit all over your knowledge base?
     
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  13. vick1000

    vick1000 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Your idea of "performance" must be checking your email, posting on [H], and watching porn.
     
  14. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed 2[H]4U

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    So you talk about not being an expert in operating systems, then go on to explain the modification of layoutmodification.xml that only applies to the Start Menu. As far as Windows 10 is concerned, the Start Menu is just one of many, many issues related to a distinct lack of end user control.

    The simplicity of Windows 10 and it's need to cater to the plebs of computing is actually one of it's bigger issues in terms of security. No, I'm not calling anyone here a pleb.
     
  15. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    No, I just tend to use computers with more than 1GB of ram and a 64 bit OS. Your idea of performance must be....... running on a 5400rpm HDD and a 10 year old dual core cpu.
     
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  16. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    No, he said he is not an expert in "writing" operating systems. Basically, you are saying Linux is not for PLEBS.
     
  17. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Tell that to the majority of people who buy their computers OEM and filled to brink with junk. I just can't imagine how people bear these junk machines.
     
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  18. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Checking e-mail and watching porn are the two last things I would ever attempt to do while running Windows lol. Even visiting [H] with ads enabled is pretty risky on Windows.
     
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  19. jlbenedict

    jlbenedict [H]ard|Gawd

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  20. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    windows 7 with a windows 10 background.
     
  21. SuperSubZero

    SuperSubZero 2[H]4U

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    Yes, if we force a user to restrict what they can do, they can do less stuff and have less potential issues. Linux is always about compromise.

    If a piece of hardware doesn't work in [distro(s) of Linux] then we just shake it off, you don't need it, it's not important, who cares about that anyway...
    If a piece of hardware doesn't work in Windows, that hardware isn't around very long, and even the company that makes it is going to be negatively impacted by it.
     
  22. SuperSubZero

    SuperSubZero 2[H]4U

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    It was linked already but a Google search will give tons of info. It's an easy file to set up (Think the one I use is about six lines) and all ya do is slip it in on the USB stick. Win10 knows to look for it, automatically applies it to every user on first login, and works with every edition. My config only has tiles for This PC, Notepad, and Calculator (I set it up for work originally). Among the various stock tiles, the only game Win10 comes with by default is Solitaire, which I'm not draconian enough to try to remove.

    As for the suggestions and "ads," I think at work it's what.. three reg.exe lines to turn all that off? The way people talk about it like it's some impassible hurdle is like the very-person-from-Walmart complaining because they are three deep in the express lane.
     
  23. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

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    It means exactly what I wrote. A lot of stuff that used to be removable with powershell for example have been slowly and systematically blocked from removal by MS over time. That means you have to rip it out of the ISO pre-install or you'll never be able to get rid of it later. The list has gotten pretty long.
     
  24. SuperSubZero

    SuperSubZero 2[H]4U

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    There are components that are part of the system and can't be removed. Stuff like, I dunno.. Minecraft.. that can still be removed. What stuff do you think should be removable that isn't?
     
  25. x509

    x509 [H]ard|Gawd

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    But I keep reading that there are cross-dependencies that aren't obvious. Take 1 thing out and break 2 other things. To me, it's not the issue of storage (mostly). It's the start menu clutter. I just need a way to simplify the start menu. Heck even 500 GB and 1 TB SSDs are pretty cheap these days. I'm not going to argue with Microsoft about 1 or 2 GB of bloatware.
     
  26. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed 2[H]4U

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    I primarily use Linux, I do not feel in the slightest way restricted - In fact I feel free. I'm vigilant, but the constant worry of infection is no longer the issue it used to be. My OS looks and behaves 'exactly' how I want it to look and behave. My OS does not spy on me. Updates are logical, reliable and I retain 100% control. I am more productive under Linux. I can still run a vast number of Win32 applications with little to no difference in performance. There is no need to constantly fight bloatware and sneaky advertising.

    Linux is not a software wasteland, most of what I use is available cross platform. I do suffer compatibility issues with malware, viruses, trojans, PUP's, cryptolockers and rootkits.

    Many have been using Windows since primary school, this is no accident, nor is it in any way unintentional. Muscle memory is a strong habit to break - That's essentially what's tying many to Windows and with the advent of mobile devices and their associated GUI's we now know people can adapt, they just need a little push.

    Driver compatibility is an issue under every OS, including Windows - There's a vast amount of perfectly good hardware that no longer works under Windows 10, MacOS doesn't even support Nvidia hardware anymore. This is by no means an issue limited to Linux.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
  27. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed 2[H]4U

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    Many of them run so poorly that they struggle to fulfill the purpose they were designed to perform, I can't see how it's even legal to sell such devices. It's one of the reasons pushing many to mobile devices as their primary computing platform.
     
  28. SuperSubZero

    SuperSubZero 2[H]4U

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    I'm more curious to know specific things that people want to remove which won't rationally affect the system.

    As for Start, I already explained how to control the initial tile layout (which can also be completely removed, at install time).
     
  29. SuperSubZero

    SuperSubZero 2[H]4U

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    That's great for you. For you. Tell me about VR gaming in Linux.

    Again, great for you. I, and many other people (see: virtually all Mac owners), prefer to have an interface that comes basically pre-configured in a way the OS maker recommends. Windows 10 has dark mode, and that is like considered a big deal. Lots of us do not want to spend hours tweaking things. Windows 10 takes me like two minutes to get how I want it. A lot of that is thanks to my Microsoft account, which oh noes, Microsoft has my wallpaper.. spying! I have several Windows 10 machines, it's nice to install, login, and bloop, 2/3 of my preferences just "happen." One other thing here is Windows 10 by it's very design is fluid to sit at anywhere and use. Any office worker on this planet that sits at a Windows 10 machine at work, can effectively use any Windows 10 machine they are put in front of, and even most pre-10 machines (Start has been there for 24 years). There's virtually no learning curve. It's not quite macOS. but it's close. [Linux distro] can be extremely graphically different than [Linux distro] and things are all configured different and "well this is how *I* like it."

    This is par for the course when 1) the vast majority of desktops are Windows, and 2) The vast majority of those users click everything. Microsoft has tried to curb it to an extent, but it's always cat & mouse. Even macOS is starting to see these problems. If enough people used Linux desktops for anyone to care, well, who knows.

    Bold added. Just stressing that again, when you restrict your workflow to stuff that runs on Linux, you find a lot of the stuff in your workflow tends to run on Linux. There are still "Linux users" who think if it's not in the distro's app store, it's not available. Chrome? No they don't have that, but they have Chromium!!

    Windows eventually stops supporting stuff like.. floppy drives.. and legacy stuff, but Win10 will still install and run fine on pretty old hardware. I'm an anti-backwards compatibility type, and I was angry when Vista still came in 32-bit. Win10.. still comes in 32-bit. As for Macs, they are another conversation, but even they still support hardware from at least seven years ago. Catalina runs really nice on my old 2012 MacBook Pro, totally supported.
     
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  30. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed 2[H]4U

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    And likewise great for you achieving everything you need under Windows. BTW: If you google search for chrome, the same way you would under Windows, Google will automatically detect your OS and direct you to download the .deb installer - From there you install the software via the GUI just like you would under Windows.

    The great thing is: You cant be directed to a scam site making you believe you're downloading Chrome while downloading a malicious .msi.

    Once again, a Windows user making outdated and vastly generalized statements regarding Linux.

    VR actually runs well under Linux considering we're talking about a niche of a niche, you can even run Windows titles with acceptable performance in many scenarios via Steamplay. Certain individuals encounter issues, but most can be worked around.

    To me, customization to suit my workflow is a little more than dark mode - Something most Linux DE's had years before Windows. Furthermore, as stated, provided there's a Firefox or Chrome icon for web browsing, a file icon to open your file manager, an envelope icon to open Email and a letter icon to open your office suite - People aren't going to have a problem navigating the interface. Most of the plebs running Windows (again, not stating anyone here is a pleb) are lost at any procedure beyond these basics so differences between operating systems is a moot point.
     
  31. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    The difference between most (not all) but most linux users compared to Windows users is that Windows users do not innovate and play games instead where linux users do productive things with their computers. A typical Windows user uses Windows because they're too dumb or lazy to actually figure out even the basics of computing and just feed on the gruel handed to them on a spoon.
     
  32. AltTabbins

    AltTabbins [H]ard as it Gets

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    Oh fuck off with the gate keeping. It’s stuff like this is why a lot of people don’t bother to even try Linux in the first place. It makes the community seem like a bunch of elitist pricks.
     
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  33. vick1000

    vick1000 [H]ard|Gawd

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    BS, I use Windows because I want to play games, lots of games, new games, and not have to muck around with the OS too much. Most typical people use Windows because that's what came on their PC, and they couldn't even tell you what OS they were using if you asked them.
     
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  34. chameleoneel

    chameleoneel 2[H]4U

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    Major elitism complex going on here. I suggest meditation and running up hills and spending less time on forums.
     
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  35. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed 2[H]4U

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    I game under Linux and I'm a lazy bastard, if the game requires too much in the way of Protontricks or fiddling I give it a miss. Luckily this is rarely necessary under Steamplay or Lutris and a vast majority of my gaming needs are handled no problem under Linux. In relation to people using Windows because it was installed on their PC when they bought it and most hardly even know what Windows is: I've always believed this to be true so you won't get any argument out of me.
     
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  36. vick1000

    vick1000 [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's gerat for waht percentage of Steam titles? What about Origin? Linux is still not an option for most gamers. Maybe if and when we can wean the devs off DX.
     
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  37. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed 2[H]4U

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    Origin runs fine, the trick is getting titles running correctly. I pretty much boycotted EA due to their business practices, but still enjoy some BF4 installed via Lutris when I get the time.

    Linux is an option for anyone that's willing to sacrifice ~20% of their library in order to run an OS that's abundant with freedom with none of the downsides of Windows 10 - And Windows 10 does have some glaring issues that don't appear to be improving, furthermore ~20% is a figure many can handle.

    Obviously it's not for everyone, but being free of Microsoft's control does feel great. Vulkan is gaining popularity among developers and I have no problem stating that in my experience Vulkan titles tend to run faster under Linux than under Windows.
     
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  38. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yes games. Children play games. Xbox can play games. Computers can be used also productively, you know :LOL:
     
  39. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed 2[H]4U

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    Trying to stay fairly neutral on this topic, but I work closely with the bulk of the computer using population and you'd be surprised at just how downright useless they are when it comes to computing. Most can't even install software, although somehow they seem to have no problem installing a plethora of malware - I'll never quite work out just how the hell they do it.

    That's all I'm saying on the subject. ;)
     
  40. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    My 70-year old mother used to use Windows, too. She doesn't even understand the concept of a desktop - for her it's 'the beginning' and a web browser is 'the internet'. She managed to get her Windows computer infected through chain mail and social media links like clockwork. Every two weeks I get a call to come to fix the computer. Something's not working. At worst I found 100 malware / viruses running despite her having an up to date antivirus.

    Finally I had enough and I told her if she gets one more infection, I'm switching her to linux. She was mad like a Tasmanian devil. But lo and behold, she learned to use linux after a couple days of nagging and is on her 3rd linux laptop already. I get no calls to fix her computer anymore which makes me very happy. It made me very nervous also to see her do internet banking on the same Windows box I just witnessed was full of PUP, malware and viruses. Luckily no cryptoattacks were popular back then.
     
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