Chinese smarter than everyone

Mega6 said:
A college degree can open that first door but after that, you are your last job.

The most useful thing I got out of it was how to teach myself new skills.
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Exactly. I spend a ton of time of chess.com. Magnus better watch the fuck out.
 
ChadD said:
Most of the greatestUS innovations of the past 50 years come to us thanks to military government backed development.
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Most of those innovations came from private companies that were contracted by the government. In many cases, several private companies competing for the same contract. Competition fosters innovation. In China, there would be no such competition. Most big companies there are already more or less directly controlled by the government. The "contract" would simply be given automatically to one of those companies.

In the US, if a company doesn't meet the goals of a military contact, they might lose the contract, people might lose their jobs. In China, the workers of a government-controlled company wouldn't be fired, they would probably go to prison. Those aren't conditions that foster innovation or make you want to take chances with potential new technologies.

ChadD said:
The internet was developed to ensure we could end the world even if every American was already dead.
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The fact that ARPANET was developed by the department of defense doesn't mean the DoD was responsible for the public internet that it evolved into. If it happened in China it probably would have never evolved beyond a private government network.

ChadD said:
GPS before it directed you to the closest McFastFood line, was used to track all navel assets in real time.
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And then the US government opened it up for public use. If GPS had been invented in China, does anyone honestly believe that they would have opened it up for civilian usage like that? It almost certainly would have remained an asset exclusive to the military.

ChadD said:
Duct tape that great American fix all on a roll... was developed by the US military to quickly seal ammo boxes. Drones. Radar. Microwaves. Digital Cameras. Epipens... where developed by the military for battle field medics. No doubt a ton of other crap I'm not thinking about.
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Most of these things were, once again, not developed by the military, but rather, private companies contracted by the military. Those companies were then free to release products based on those technologies on the private market. Their incentives included possibly making a lot of money, not simply following an order that was given to them.

ChadD said:
My point is Governments fund all sorts of innovation...
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And my point is that it's not about where the money comes from, it's about control. In China you are, at all times, at the mercy of the Chinese government. If anything you ever do or say runs contrary to the government's goals, you go away. If you are working on a military project and fail to meet the Chinese government's goals, you go away.

Many great products in the US actually came as a result of companies that competed for military contracts, and lost. But despite the lost contract, they were still able to monetize those technologies by releasing profitable products on the private market. What that means is that people are more willing to take chances, try out new ideas, move forward with an idea even if there is a chance it won't work. Things you probably wouldn't try if failure meant prison.
 
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Mega6 said:
“Chinese students far out-stripped peers in every other country in a survey of reading, math and science ability, underscoring a reserve of future economic strength and the struggle of advanced economies to keep up.”
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Possible, but coming from a system where cheating is systemic and pretty much the norm, I'd take it with a large grain of salt.

"By late afternoon, the invigilators were trapped in a set of school offices, as groups of students pelted the windows with rocks. Outside, an angry mob of more than 2,000 people had gathered to vent its rage, smashing cars and chanting: "We want fairness. There is no fairness if you do not let us cheat."

According to the protesters, cheating is endemic in China, so being forced to sit the exams without help put their children at a disadvantage."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ese-teachers-try-to-stop-pupils-cheating.html
 
Unexploded said:
Possible, but coming from a system where cheating is systemic and pretty much the norm, I'd take it with a large grain of salt.

"By late afternoon, the invigilators were trapped in a set of school offices, as groups of students pelted the windows with rocks. Outside, an angry mob of more than 2,000 people had gathered to vent its rage, smashing cars and chanting: "We want fairness. There is no fairness if you do not let us cheat."

According to the protesters, cheating is endemic in China, so being forced to sit the exams without help put their children at a disadvantage."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ese-teachers-try-to-stop-pupils-cheating.html
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Same in India.
 
I don't see why you can't take shots and discuss the latest scientific papers :p

Zarathustra[H] said:
When I have hung out with people who haven't gone to college everything seems to always devolve into shots, beer-pong, and conversations about some stupid drag racing project car, or the lawn mower they are interested in. It bores me to tears. No wonder all the alcohol is needed.
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Mega6 said:
“Chinese students far out-stripped peers in every other country in a survey of reading, math and science ability, underscoring a reserve of future economic strength and the struggle of advanced economies to keep up.”

https://apple.news/AAelTFuLMTCqzIQKtpCN6Xg
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Highly inflated numbers do to the insane cheating rates in China. Cheating is a part of Chinese culture.
 
ChadD said:
The American exceptionalism is strong in this thread. lol

This fallacy that all China knows how to do is copy is stupid already. China discovers and develops as much as any other nation currently. Do they have a copy cat tech industry based on the fact that they produce 80+% of the worlds tech goods... sure. But claiming they don't know how to innovate is stupid already. Their big tech companies are using more and more homegrown stuff... the fact that they base it on a ARM instruction set doesn't make it any less innovative then what say Apple is doing with the same licences.
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You are completely missing the point that what enabled all that WAS the West. What is easier; to build a house with two hands and a stone axe or two hands with all the modern carpentry tools in the world? China was nothing but a peasant country stuck centuries in the past just forty years ago and left to their own devices would still largely be there.

The West basically handed over all of their technology and processes, upwards of tens of trillions of dollars in transfer in knowledge/technology just so that the West could have cheap labor/goods. Of course it's easy to start to innovate when all of the foundations to do so were given to you to do so. The hard part is building that foundation from scratch like the West had to do. The West and especially the US has invented it's own enemy that will haunt it for centuries. We did this all in the name of profit and greed.
 
NKD said:
...Then I came to America, yes it was a blessing but I was fine until I hit college. Too much freedom got to me I guess, I blew in it in community college. Then 5 years later regrouped and got my head straight...
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It's called growing up. That's not an uncommon path to completing your higher education. And there is some learning that occurs in those 5 years, like what it costs to own a car, pay for insurance, rent, food. What jobs are not ideal like some typical low pay jobs people end up in without some form of education (be it college or a technical school).

But you CHOSE to improve yourself. There is value in this. It shows self-control and self-discipline. Maybe it took 5 years to learn those things but you learned them. A person becomes a far better human being/employee/citizen when they freely choose to, vs it trying to be forced on them. That results in a rebellious individual or a drone like the chinese.

ChadD said:
The American exceptionalism is strong in this thread. lol

This fallacy that all China knows how to do is copy is stupid already. China discovers and develops as much as any other nation currently. Do they have a copy cat tech industry based on the fact that they produce 80+% of the worlds tech goods... sure. But claiming they don't know how to innovate is stupid already. Their big tech companies are using more and more homegrown stuff... the fact that they base it on a ARM instruction set doesn't make it any less innovative then what say Apple is doing with the same licences.

China has discovered plenty of useful things in their modern era (not talking about ancient China and paper gunpowder ect) Their contributions in mathematical theory pretty much equals American output. And hey US kids are very thankful that Hon Lik invented E sigs. lol
They do invent inane stuff like this that I guess no one in the west would notice. lmao They have inventive people they just have a different culture and a different set of goals... some of their inventions are a bit scary like their recent breakthough in non invasive prenatal diagnostics for down syndrome, scary considering their policies on reproduction... still ingenious and groundbreaking.

The US and China in a lot of ways are very much the same... they both have a handful of nut job farmers making crazy ass things in their barns.
https://www.quora.com/What-recent-inventions-have-been-invented-by-Chinese-in-China
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I basically agree with all of that, I just believe it occurs due to sheer volume (they got a huge population), and not due to the chinese 'system'.
 
Unexploded said:
Possible, but coming from a system where cheating is systemic and pretty much the norm, I'd take it with a large grain of salt.

"By late afternoon, the invigilators were trapped in a set of school offices, as groups of students pelted the windows with rocks. Outside, an angry mob of more than 2,000 people had gathered to vent its rage, smashing cars and chanting: "We want fairness. There is no fairness if you do not let us cheat."

According to the protesters, cheating is endemic in China, so being forced to sit the exams without help put their children at a disadvantage."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ese-teachers-try-to-stop-pupils-cheating.html
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Not trying to defend this, but part of me thinks there's definitely some translation issues, if this school was a rather "low class" area then they're absolutely correct. Because they don't do this shit in more affluent/well to do areas. When you can afford all sorts of private tutors, prior years (and maybe even this years) test which should not be available to anyone, it does put you at a distinct advantage over other students. So the cry of "it's unfair if you don't let us cheat" is really about making it fair for everyone, what did they do? Effectively destroy the future for the kids of one school, meanwhile all the other cheating schools have kids that get accepted to university, etc.
 
ChadD said:
Most of the greatestUS innovations of the past 50 years come to us thanks to military government backed development. The internet was developed to ensure we could end the world even if every American was already dead. GPS before it directed you to the closest McFastFood line, was used to track all navel assets in real time. Duct tape that great American fix all on a roll... was developed by the US military to quickly seal ammo boxes. Drones. Radar. Microwaves. Digital Cameras. Epipens... where developed by the military for battle field medics. No doubt a ton of other crap I'm not thinking about.

My point is Governments fund all sorts of innovation... and their intent isn't to invent pocket cameras for our kids, and digital talking maps for those of us that get lost 2 blocks from home. The west the east china... doesn't matter the Gov they all fund innovation to further their own goals.

The CCP has a very different set of goals then the US gov... but the bottom line is both drive innovation in their countries to reach those goals. The brain trusts in both countries cash their Gov cheques.
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Navel assets you say...

lint.jpg



:p
 
VIC-20 said:
Can confirm. Work at a college. Its standard operating procedure for them and we are constantly developing new methods to catch and prevent it.
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I can confirm you are making this up, do you believe me? lol. Are they really cheaters or they are cheaters because they are chinese? Any proof? Been with chinese students that actually fucking hated china and busted their ass in my math classes lol. Yea they must be cheating with their brains. Look I hate china as much as anyone but to say the students cheat is stupid. It's hard to cheat in math and engineering classes unless ofcourse professors are handing out questions to them before hand lol.
 
NKD said:
I can confirm you are making this up, do you believe me? lol. Are they really cheaters or they are cheaters because they are chinese? Any proof? Been with chinese students that actually fucking hated china and busted their ass in my math classes lol. Yea they must be cheating with their brains. Look I hate china as much as anyone but to say the students cheat is stupid. It's hard to cheat in math and engineering classes unless ofcourse professors are handing out questions to them before hand lol.
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Look it's a proven fact. Just like inner city students love to steal and commit violent crime.
/s
 
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I teach college at the lowest levels, community college, and can confirm cheaters are going to try and cheat regardless of race. The difference with mine is they aren't trying to get into a prestigious university, they're at a CC because they couldn't get into one in their merits, so they have a wake up call that this is their time to shine and learn. Sure you have a segment who are going through the paces as this is "expected" or treat it like high school (which is why they are there in the first place) but the foreign exchange students we have (that are paying way to much for a CC) don't seem like prolific cheaters. Who knows maybe these are the ones who didn't cheat which is why no Stanford or Berkeley :)
 
China is advancing for sure but they also cheat A LOT, I witnessed this at UC Davis during my undergrad in a C++ course I took where I saw Chinese exchange students taking exams for each other.

In China, cheating is a perfectly acceptable cultural norm so I wouldn't trust any metric coming from there. If they are doing so much with a giant pool of STEM grads, then why are they behind S. Korea who is only a fraction of China's size? Then you got even tinier nations like Israel that far out innovate China.
 
5150Joker said:
China is advancing for sure but they also cheat A LOT, I witnessed this at UC Davis during my undergrad in a C++ course I took where I saw Chinese exchange students taking exams for each other.

In China, cheating is a perfectly acceptable cultural norm so I wouldn't trust any metric coming from there. If they are doing so much with a giant pool of STEM grads, then why are they behind S. Korea who is only a fraction of China's size? Then you got even tinier nations like Israel that far out innovate China.
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Yep.

Cheating is not seen negatively. It is seen as "outsmarting the system". Presumably this is a negative result of people living under a corrupt communist regime for so long, where "outsmarting the system" is the only way to get things done and succeed.
 
NKD said:
I can confirm you are making this up, do you believe me? lol. Are they really cheaters or they are cheaters because they are chinese? Any proof? Been with chinese students that actually fucking hated china and busted their ass in my math classes lol. Yea they must be cheating with their brains. Look I hate china as much as anyone but to say the students cheat is stupid. It's hard to cheat in math and engineering classes unless ofcourse professors are handing out questions to them before hand lol.
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I am finishing my PhD in a prestigious optics college that has an undergraduate optical engineering program. I've been the TA for a semiconductor physics course in that college for several years, and there are always students willing to cheat. The difference that I have seen is in the attitude that the student has when they are eventually caught (and I'm very good at catching them). Here is an actual example of two different excuses given for blatantly copying homework solutions right out of the solutions manual (this is freely available online if you know where to look or use Chegg):

Non-chinese student: "I'm sorry, I got really backed up with my other course work and X/Y/Z activities and just didn't have time to finish the homework set."
Chinese student: "I didn't know how to work the problems, so I thought it was okay to copy everything down from the solutions manual and turn it in as my own work."

That student actually gave me that excuse. He didn't even feel ashamed about it. In fact, he didn't understand why he got referred to the professor about this when he did it a second time. To me, it is not that Chinese students are or are not smarter than US students. It is the mindset they have developed that tells them it is okay to do whatever it takes, including cheating, in order to pretend to be superior to everyone else. Now, I've worked with a lot of very talented Chinese students in graduate school who have incredible academic integrity, so I am not saying that this is a problem for all Chinese students. Again, it is just the mindset they have when they do cheat that bothers me, and underpins the problem China has with true innovation outside of IP theft from the rest of the world and pretending it developed organically.
 
Neslepax said:
That student actually gave me that excuse. He didn't even feel ashamed about it. In fact, he didn't understand why he got referred to the professor about this when he did it a second time. To me, it is not that Chinese students are or are not smarter than US students. It is the mindset they have developed that tells them it is okay to do whatever it takes, including cheating, in order to pretend to be superior to everyone else. Now, I've worked with a lot of very talented Chinese students in graduate school who have incredible academic integrity, so I am not saying that this is a problem for all Chinese students. Again, it is just the mindset they have when they do cheat that bothers me, and underpins the problem China has with true innovation outside of IP theft from the rest of the world and pretending it developed organically.
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Indeed. The Chinese do excellent with paper qualifications, but their execution time and time again is subpar. Faking statistics, cheating, IP theft, over-inflating numbers in their favors is industrialized in that country. Obviously there are many intelligent people there, but you'll find that many that hold these paper qualifications are not on par with their western counterparts.
 
Flogger23m said:
Indeed. The Chinese do excellent with paper qualifications, but their execution time and time again is subpar. Faking statistics, cheating, IP theft, over-inflating numbers in their favors is industrialized in that country. Obviously there are many intelligent people there, but you'll find that many that hold these paper qualifications are not on par with their western counterparts.
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We get notifications about new Chinese academic journals all the time and end up harassed in email to submit our work to them. They are desperately trying to compete with the West in this area, but their journals simply lack acceptance among the larger scientific community because of all of the problems they have with honest peer review. We see, and laugh at, publications that come out in these journals that are claiming to be making huge strides in laser R&D (my research area). There is simply no way these new research groups at Chinese universities, many with less than 5 years of existence, have developed enough internalized knowledge to be challenging the research coming out of groups that have existed for 20+ years. They are either fabricating their data (of which you don't have access to), or they are outright stealing the IP to short-cut the time it takes to develop a successful research group. Either way, no one takes it seriously when a Chinese research group from a Chinese university publishes ground-breaking research in a Chinese academic journal. If your results are that good and that robust, go submit it to Nature.
 
NKD said:
We are just too chill, too soft and system is just designed to keep you average and come out with debt when you graduate. On top we are so damn politically divided its a joke and we can't get anything done in congress.
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Yep, you enter the rat race in debt. You'd think being the country with no good parental leave policy, 2 weeks standard vacation, OT without pay being common, etc that our children would be a bit better prepared for this. But in fact quite the opposite as you mentioned.
 
Neslepax said:
I am finishing my PhD in a prestigious optics college that has an undergraduate optical engineering program. I've been the TA for a semiconductor physics course in that college for several years, and there are always students willing to cheat. The difference that I have seen is in the attitude that the student has when they are eventually caught (and I'm very good at catching them). Here is an actual example of two different excuses given for blatantly copying homework solutions right out of the solutions manual (this is freely available online if you know where to look or use Chegg):

Non-chinese student: "I'm sorry, I got really backed up with my other course work and X/Y/Z activities and just didn't have time to finish the homework set."
Chinese student: "I didn't know how to work the problems, so I thought it was okay to copy everything down from the solutions manual and turn it in as my own work."

That student actually gave me that excuse. He didn't even feel ashamed about it. In fact, he didn't understand why he got referred to the professor about this when he did it a second time. To me, it is not that Chinese students are or are not smarter than US students. It is the mindset they have developed that tells them it is okay to do whatever it takes, including cheating, in order to pretend to be superior to everyone else. Now, I've worked with a lot of very talented Chinese students in graduate school who have incredible academic integrity, so I am not saying that this is a problem for all Chinese students. Again, it is just the mindset they have when they do cheat that bothers me, and underpins the problem China has with true innovation outside of IP theft from the rest of the world and pretending it developed organically.
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get your point. I guess my point was mainly towards exams and stuff not homework related. Most of them I have met seem to finish problems like crazy fast almost like they are robots. I guess I only saw the good ones. Most I have seen tend to be fairly good at math and engineering stuff given they know english.
 
blade52x said:
Yep, you enter the rat race in debt. You'd think being the country with no good parental leave policy, 2 weeks standard vacation, OT without pay being common, etc that our children would be a bit better prepared for this. But in fact quite the opposite as you mentioned.
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Yea. We went through hell during the great recession. lost house, cars, you name it. I did take out loans to finish school but I refused when the school wanted me to go do masters. Now I want to since the company pays for it. I think the plan to allow companies to back pay student loans for their employees is a genius one. Corporations take tax breaks to the moon anyways, put that shit to good use. Never understood the only choice where you have to work for them and then they pay for further education. They should be allowed to pay back if they want for same incentives. I guess that is too good of a thing to happen. I have been with the company for 7 years would have paid off my student loans lol. But if I started working before college they would have paid for my bachelors and masters. Just let them backdate it 4 years as long as the employee puts in the time on quarterly basis.
 
Hey, the world needs more smart people. We certainly have enough stupid ones already.
 
pendragon1 said:
cheating does not equal smart...
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like I said. Everyone cheats, I wouldn’t be calling it fair to say that all Chinese cheat just because they are Chinese. I am sure plenty of people in China hate China themselves.
 
NKD said:
like I said. Everyone cheats, I wouldn’t be calling it fair to say that all Chinese cheat just because they are Chinese. I am sure plenty of people in China hate China themselves.
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<Hong Kong>
 
NKD said:
like I said. Everyone cheats, I wouldn’t be calling it fair to say that all Chinese cheat just because they are Chinese. I am sure plenty of people in China hate China themselves.
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i didnt quote you...
 
pendragon1 said:
i didnt quote you...
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I responded to you lol. Isn't that called having a proper debate? haha. Again, even though I hate china itself, I wont sit here and pretend like all chinse kids are stupid and cheaters. that will be ignorant of me.
 
NKD said:
like I said. Everyone cheats, I wouldn’t be calling it fair to say that all Chinese cheat just because they are Chinese. I am sure plenty of people in China hate China themselves.
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As I mentioned before in this thread, I'd argue it has more to do with a few generations growing up under a highly corrupt authoritarian communist regime, where in many situations the only way to get stuff done is to lie/cheat/steal/bribe. My hope is that if their government ever changes to a more liberal democracy that - over time - the culture will change along with it.
 
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