China Wants Silicon Valley's Encryption Keys

Because unlike China most places are not willing to provide heavy subsidization for their companies. You cannot beat the Chinese in many cases because the government will flush and industry with insane support. Then they will dump product killing most competitors. So you setup shop there, then they learn everything about your company and then they build a copy and start to out compete you. When they are strong enough then they outlaw your ability to sell to their citizens and slowly kill your company. Over and over. The problem is most US companies think they are smarter and can out run it. But they aren't. once you sell out the infrastructure you cant just snap your fingers and rebuild it.

The real power of China is its single party top down government, when the guys at the top decide to do something it gets done fast period. In places like the USA and India the democracy fails to compete because everyone is constantly arguing about shit. Is this Ok for the people, is it OK for the environment, is it OK for religion? its the same reason Russia was so powerful for a while. Now its possible they will screw up but so far for the last 20 years or so the Chinese have not screwed up. Also when anything goes wrong in China, like a whole city doesn't pay its debt, the Chinese government just makes the problem go away. Because everything has to look smooth to the people and the outside world. Ironically it creates something of a decent level of security. Not like the USA where dems and republicans can sit their and push the whole country to the edge default because people are vote pandering over illegal Mexicans.

Now here is the kicker most Americans are ignorant and they think we cant do anything about China because China holds our debt. Actually that's false, the Chinese need us right now we are like Siamese twins. The problem isn't that the problem is Americans are too sissy to do anything about it. We are so scared that our economy might be bad that we will sell out the security and lives of our children we are selfish beyond belief. Right now we can demand lots of China because their government has to keep their people happy, if America cuts off trade with China, the communist regime collapses. They will do whatever we tell them to keep their power the only thing is we have to be ready and willing to go through an economic collapse which we will survive because we are more robust. The USA doesn't need to export to China to survive, China needs to export to the USA to survive. If China calls in its US debt we can simply print more money, not shit they can do about it. Our people just have to be ready and willing to sustain the inflation. We have the ability, we have the food, we have the basics we need, the Chinese don't. But wait a couple decades and the Chinese will no longer need us for exports then when they call in the debt we wont have any leverage at all and they will simply destroy us. Its a half century long chess game and we are falling into a check mate but we could stop it, unfortunately we wont because we are too lame.

Excellent Post. The state owned enterprise / federal backing of companies that are deemed necessary to the growth of China are impossible to defeat. They just had a plenium highlighting their next 5 years with one of the points being basically a call for retaining tech / technically competent professionals. I would wager China will try very hard to recruit metel tested professionals from the tech industry.
 
Because unlike China most places are not willing to provide heavy subsidization for their companies. You cannot beat the Chinese in many cases because the government will flush and industry with insane support. Then they will dump product killing most competitors. So you setup shop there, then they learn everything about your company and then they build a copy and start to out compete you. When they are strong enough then they outlaw your ability to sell to their citizens and slowly kill your company. Over and over. The problem is most US companies think they are smarter and can out run it. But they aren't. once you sell out the infrastructure you cant just snap your fingers and rebuild it.

The real power of China is its single party top down government, when the guys at the top decide to do something it gets done fast period. In places like the USA and India the democracy fails to compete because everyone is constantly arguing about shit. Is this Ok for the people, is it OK for the environment, is it OK for religion? its the same reason Russia was so powerful for a while. Now its possible they will screw up but so far for the last 20 years or so the Chinese have not screwed up. Also when anything goes wrong in China, like a whole city doesn't pay its debt, the Chinese government just makes the problem go away. Because everything has to look smooth to the people and the outside world. Ironically it creates something of a decent level of security. Not like the USA where dems and republicans can sit their and push the whole country to the edge default because people are vote pandering over illegal Mexicans.

Now here is the kicker most Americans are ignorant and they think we cant do anything about China because China holds our debt. Actually that's false, the Chinese need us right now we are like Siamese twins. The problem isn't that the problem is Americans are too sissy to do anything about it. We are so scared that our economy might be bad that we will sell out the security and lives of our children we are selfish beyond belief. Right now we can demand lots of China because their government has to keep their people happy, if America cuts off trade with China, the communist regime collapses. They will do whatever we tell them to keep their power the only thing is we have to be ready and willing to go through an economic collapse which we will survive because we are more robust. The USA doesn't need to export to China to survive, China needs to export to the USA to survive. If China calls in its US debt we can simply print more money, not shit they can do about it. Our people just have to be ready and willing to sustain the inflation. We have the ability, we have the food, we have the basics we need, the Chinese don't. But wait a couple decades and the Chinese will no longer need us for exports then when they call in the debt we wont have any leverage at all and they will simply destroy us. Its a half century long chess game and we are falling into a check mate but we could stop it, unfortunately we wont because we are too lame.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I thought India was close in a lot of ways. Since they clearly want more jobs there as well, to boost up their economy. I doubt they are as willing as China, but I doubt they are unwilling. It probably needs more of a push and more money to go through though.
 
Yup I can't stop laughing about all the companies that moved manufacturing to china, then started crying when exact clones start flooding the market with a different sticker costing 1/4 of the price. Who the fuck thought it would be a good idea to send IP to a country with no IP protection laws (for outsiders at least). Serves them right, and saves me money since I can buy the same item from the same factory for far less money.

Well the alternative is company's operations stay here, European, Japanese, Taiwan company goes to China if not a Chinese company itself and under cuts US company. US company goes out of business and operations go out of business.

Choice is
a) US company moves operations to China, Engineering might stay here, some part of the company remains alive here.
b) US company and all jobs are lost, nothing remains, especially engineering.

a) is reversible
b) is not reversible.

but I guess the prospect of b gives you an orgasm because you likely enjoy believing evil corporations are being fucked more than you actually care about the jobs or the economy. When in reality the folks who are really in charge on wallstreet make money of either scenario. (b) does not touch them at all if they don't want it to.
 
They didn't specifically mention it... but this doesn't sound like it would effect US manufacturing customers as much as posters seem to be implying.

These laws look to prevent US companies selling their goods in China.

Cisco can probably make as many routers/switches in China as they want, they just wouldn't be able to sell any there.

China is a huge market, US companies have been trying to do business there for 10 years or more. While China is know for bias to local companies, this would be worse obviously.

Didn't china already ban all routers/switches/phone systems/whatever from non-china companies already? They didn't want the NSA to have backdoors into their systems, but they want access to all others for "terrorists"...
 
China (and other manufacturing based countries) is only a few years away from their own manufacturing jobs crisis. Robots are only 2 or 3 years away from making a huge impact on how many workers will be needed even in China. If you have to pay a worker $4 an hour (plus benefits) to put widgets together and a company can buy a robot to do that which costs them an average of $4 an hour over the life of the robots usefulness, then the company has just saved the cost of those benefits and is going to get new robots. That same economy of cost works even better for the USA and Europe. I see the possibility of lots of new factories being built back in the west soon. The problem is that those factories won't be hiring.

Every time the average or minimum wage of any country goes up, that process is just going to accelerate. We'll all be ordering our burger using a kiosk and getting those burgers made by robots a decade from now. It's inevitable... even if current wages stayed the same. Robots get cheaper and can do more every year. Benefits, like vacation and sick days, holidays, health insurance, etc. aren't needed by a robot.

Maybe China wants all the 'terrorist' information now because they can see the social unrest scenario's cropping up in their own country soon?
 
Because that won't completely backfire and destroy our economy.

Tell me again, who is the largest holder of US debt? China has us economically by the balls, and they know it. And quite frankly, there's nothing the USA can do about it-thanks to CEOs who sent all our manufacturing jobs there.

If you owe the bank $10k and can't pay, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $1million, the bank has a problem.
 
Pretty soon all of China will be uninhabitable.

Why? This is just wishful and foolish thinking. They leveraged their environmental quality into economic growth just like the US and UK did, albeit 100-odd years ago. Hoping they turn into a barren wasteland because they dump some industrial waste into ponds and rivers like they did here only decades ago is simple-minded.

They're not going away, and they're going to be our number-one global competitors. The difference is the PRC looks out for its own people in its own way, in a way that the US, captive to very "special" interests, doesn't do.
 
This is what is going to happen.
Most likely complete silence.. if not then:
Several stern statements coming from US companies, as well as some criticism from our government about theirs (assuming this gets to the wider public).
Then, everything they want will be provided.
We are not in position to fight (I don't mean war), them, I am not sure we have been in over 10years.
Anything they want to produce, they will, and then sell it to everybody else and not the US is we don't want to buy it.
Intel this, and that, so, how many minutes for them to reverse engineer their CPUs?
We are at their mercy, I think they have known it for while, they probably been waiting to be extra-sure, like 10years+ sure.
We are not in a position to do war either, I don't think we have the range to do it.. as I understand it our carriers would be blown (by land missiles) before they can launch any real assault. So I don't think we can go and destroy their industrial capacity either.. not saying that we should anyway.
 
Why? This is just wishful and foolish thinking. They leveraged their environmental quality into economic growth just like the US and UK did, albeit 100-odd years ago. Hoping they turn into a barren wasteland because they dump some industrial waste into ponds and rivers like they did here only decades ago is simple-minded.

They're not going away, and they're going to be our number-one global competitors. The difference is the PRC looks out for its own people in its own way, in a way that the US, captive to very "special" interests, doesn't do.

Its true China has some serious problems, but its also true what you say.. the thing about affecting the environment, even brutally, once you stop, it does heal.
They are not stupid by a mile, they know what they are doing.
They are expanding solar and wind in a mayor way, as well they have jumped in both feet in thorium molten salt reactors.. amazingly its the only country to have done this (I think india is also, but not molten salt)
 
Who cares if its an investment to setup manufacturing elsewhere.
Its about damn time we did it. Corporations have been acting like fucking cheapskates for so long even though they have been milking almost free labour from China for decades now. Its about damn time they bucked up and started building things in their own fucking country. Create jobs, secure IP, and uhm I dunno its investing in their home country. We should not have to sell this shit to these sleezebags.
But time and time again history has proven that corporations have no allegiance to their home countries, they only stay loyal to profit no matter who it may hurt, even if its themselves.
 
Who cares if its an investment to setup manufacturing elsewhere.
Its about damn time we did it. Corporations have been acting like fucking cheapskates for so long even though they have been milking almost free labour from China for decades now. Its about damn time they bucked up and started building things in their own fucking country. Create jobs, secure IP, and uhm I dunno its investing in their home country. We should not have to sell this shit to these sleezebags.
But time and time again history has proven that corporations have no allegiance to their home countries, they only stay loyal to profit no matter who it may hurt, even if its themselves.

The attitude of corporations...and lots of people...is "fuck the country, we don't owe anything to anyone but our shareholders and we only owe them $$$".

Good luck on getting them to do anything else.
 
Why? This is just wishful and foolish thinking. They leveraged their environmental quality into economic growth just like the US and UK did, albeit 100-odd years ago. Hoping they turn into a barren wasteland because they dump some industrial waste into ponds and rivers like they did here only decades ago is simple-minded.

They're not going away, and they're going to be our number-one global competitors. The difference is the PRC looks out for its own people in its own way, in a way that the US, captive to very "special" interests, doesn't do.

Have you been to china? That place is so messed up from polution it's ridiculous... One of our employees went back there to visit her family. She smokes and still said she couldn't be outside for long without breathing problems....
 
Have you been to china? That place is so messed up from polution it's ridiculous... One of our employees went back there to visit her family. She smokes and still said she couldn't be outside for long without breathing problems....

I had some work obligations there. Like I said, their more industrial cities are comparable to the US and UK's industrial areas around the turn of the century (anecdotally, of course), because of their coal usage. The smog seems to have cleared up around Chicago and London since then. The dumping of regulated (er, unregulated) wastes is another problem, but one I didn't experience firsthand.

The rest of it is your standard yellow/red scare stuff. The idea that China is single-handedly polluting up the rest of the world - come on. They only recently passed the number one polluter in the world in the United States itself. There's no doubt they're our long-term global "enemy," but people need to get their facts straight lest we underestimate our "foes."
 
Worldcorp has no allegance to any country.When the major stockholders are mostly the few hundred of the worlds richest,few of whom reside in the US,US workers and consumers are of little interest, as long as a matter does not affect their bottom line.It's easy enough for despots to ignore the pain of their own countrymen.Far easier to ignore a foreigner,moreso an "ugly American".Our leaders have signed trade agreements without any provision for anything but corporate profit.Agreements bought from the governments of the world, guaranteed to enslave all working people, of every nation.
 
Because that won't completely backfire and destroy our economy.

Tell me again, who is the largest holder of US debt? China has us economically by the balls, and they know it. And quite frankly, there's nothing the USA can do about it-thanks to CEOs who sent all our manufacturing jobs there.

Because China will do what? Kill our economy so they'll never get their money back?

The only thing they can do is stop lending to us. Would that be a bad thing? Like we need to pile on more debt? They'd being doing us a favor. That is unless you support politicians buying votes today with money we don't have by fucking our future up.
 
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