China Wants Silicon Valley's Encryption Keys

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As part of a new counter-terrorism law, China is demanding that tech companies hand over encryption keys or get out. I guess we better start packing. ;)

The Chinese government has introduced plans for a far-reaching counter-terrorism law that would require tech companies to hand over encryption keys and source code -- even "backdoors" to give Chinese authorities surveillance access.
 
I knew this was coming the moment American companies thought it would be cheap and wonderful to move their business/manufacturing to China.

But how can you turn down China's oh-so-reasonable request? It's "counter-terrorism", after all, so if you don't agree you must support terrorists, or be one yourself.
 
I guess my only question would be... why?

Haven't they already stolen them? I mean they've stolen everything else through industrial espionage.

Maybe they just want to double-check that they have the right ones.
 
I knew this was coming the moment American companies thought it would be cheap and wonderful to move their business/manufacturing to China.

But how can you turn down China's oh-so-reasonable request? It's "counter-terrorism", after all, so if you don't agree you must support terrorists, or be one yourself.

American policies are coming back to bite them in the ass.
Corporations being cheap skates and not investing in manufacturing and our government acting like encryption is evil.
I wish the US would wake the fuck up to how stupid its been acting.
 
if this passes, it's a win/win for China.....

if we give them the keys = they win
if we pull out of the country, we're out of their way = they win
 
Doesn't the NSA do this in the US already?

I guess China can just make it more blatent as they aren't a democracy.
 
Dear world,

Please give us copies of all your IP. We "promise" not to copy or rip it, scouts honor.

Sincerely,
China.
 
Isn't the same thing the FBI recently requested of our own domestic companies? Sadly this is going to be up to major manufactures and the public's reaction. The government can easily be lobbied one way or the other. For Chinese companies, such a demand means that their sales to foreign countries will be tainted, so even if they can undercut us on price, they may not be able to convince other governments their equipment is safe.
 
Isn't the same thing the FBI recently requested of our own domestic companies? Sadly this is going to be up to major manufactures and the public's reaction. The government can easily be lobbied one way or the other. For Chinese companies, such a demand means that their sales to foreign countries will be tainted, so even if they can undercut us on price, they may not be able to convince other governments their equipment is safe.

Problem being, all the world's CEOs shortsightedly sold their souls (and their manufacturing with it, as well as those jobs) to China to boost their bottom line and top off their overseas tax-exempt holdings. Everything the USA and the world needs, especially tech, is made in china...and nowhere else.

What are all these companies going to do? Shutdown all production for a year or two to rebuild/move their manufacturing elsewhere? Yea. Right. That would cost them tons of $$$$$, and $ signs are all these twits see. They'll bend over, because they have no choice.
 
You are right a lot of manufacturing is done in China, because they have the capacity, infrastructure and lax environmental regulations. I know, because I have two products that, I had virtually no option but to source manufacturing from China for. That said, I know of a lot of major companies that are building alternate manufacturing facilities in other countries, because of lower labor costs and issues with intellectual property theft. The guys that handle my contract manufacturing told me some of the biggest players are looking to be out of China in 3-4 years, not outright leaving but have alternate capacity to move should issues arise.
 
You are right a lot of manufacturing is done in China, because they have the capacity, infrastructure and lax environmental regulations. I know, because I have two products that, I had virtually no option but to source manufacturing from China for. That said, I know of a lot of major companies that are building alternate manufacturing facilities in other countries, because of lower labor costs and issues with intellectual property theft. The guys that handle my contract manufacturing told me some of the biggest players are looking to be out of China in 3-4 years, not outright leaving but have alternate capacity to move should issues arise.

I'm curious where they intend to go. The places with cheap labor and lax regulations outside of China tend to be war zones...or completely lack any kind of tech manufacturing infrastructure of any sort. Apple, for example, has no real choice in who they go to to make their iPhones or any of their hardware. That kind of manufacturing and capacity for volume fast only exists in a handful of companies all of which are in China and only China.

My sister-in-law works for a major multi-national bank...and they're trying to get out of IT outsourcing simply because they found it costs more money in the long run to outsource than it does to stay inside the USA. But that is IT infrastructure support (not manufacturing)
 
I'm curious where they intend to go. The places with cheap labor and lax regulations outside of China tend to be war zones...or completely lack any kind of tech manufacturing infrastructure of any sort. Apple, for example, has no real choice in who they go to to make their iPhones or any of their hardware. That kind of manufacturing and capacity for volume fast only exists in a handful of companies all of which are in China and only China.

My sister-in-law works for a major multi-national bank...and they're trying to get out of IT outsourcing simply because they found it costs more money in the long run to outsource than it does to stay inside the USA. But that is IT infrastructure support (not manufacturing)

there's plenty of countries that specialize in tourist locations, cheap handjobs, and outsourcing that'll step up to the plate. south america and more southeastern asia (thailand/laos/cambodia) or phillipines are still non-chinese/non-indian players in the slave labor arenas.

IT is a little different as it tends to ring true with the "if you think hiring a professional is expensive, wait until you hire an amateur." when its services delivery, you need pros. when it's building some cheap trinket or mass producing a part, you just need machines and people to attend them.
 
You are right a lot of manufacturing is done in China, because they have the capacity, infrastructure and lax environmental regulations. I know, because I have two products that, I had virtually no option but to source manufacturing from China for. That said, I know of a lot of major companies that are building alternate manufacturing facilities in other countries, because of lower labor costs and issues with intellectual property theft. The guys that handle my contract manufacturing told me some of the biggest players are looking to be out of China in 3-4 years, not outright leaving but have alternate capacity to move should issues arise.

Yup I can't stop laughing about all the companies that moved manufacturing to china, then started crying when exact clones start flooding the market with a different sticker costing 1/4 of the price. Who the fuck thought it would be a good idea to send IP to a country with no IP protection laws (for outsiders at least). Serves them right, and saves me money since I can buy the same item from the same factory for far less money.
 
What are all these companies going to do? Shutdown all production for a year or two to rebuild/move their manufacturing elsewhere? Yea. Right. That would cost them tons of $$$$$, and $ signs are all these twits see. They'll bend over, because they have no choice.

What would happen if they all, as a collective group, simply refused to hand anything over? Or the US government specifically banned them all from doing so?

China is bluffing, and someone is going to call their bluff. They might make a token gesture of seizing a few high-profile factories (probably Apple factories) but they could never do that on a large scale. Their economy is simply too dependent on the status-quo.
 
What would happen if they all, as a collective group, simply refused to hand anything over? Or the US government specifically banned them all from doing so?

The same thing you see here in the USA when a company refuses to comply with orders like this...people in uniforms marching in with armed escorts. and walking out a short time later with subtle grins on their faces.

In all seriousness, the Chinese already have this stuff. The NSA is already fairly certain the Chinese are into all the dirty crap they are. This just makes the Chyinese look better because they come out and ask (technically demand) it.
 
Enough with this BS. We partner with China for manufacturing to build their economy and they turn around and stab us and our allies in the back. Time for sanctions and moving manufacturing to other Asian countries.
 
Enough with this BS. We partner with China for manufacturing to build their economy and they turn around and stab us and our allies in the back. Time for sanctions and moving manufacturing to other Asian countries.

Because that won't completely backfire and destroy our economy.

Tell me again, who is the largest holder of US debt? China has us economically by the balls, and they know it. And quite frankly, there's nothing the USA can do about it-thanks to CEOs who sent all our manufacturing jobs there.
 
Because that won't completely backfire and destroy our economy.

Tell me again, who is the largest holder of US debt? China has us economically by the balls, and they know it. And quite frankly, there's nothing the USA can do about it-thanks to CEOs who sent all our manufacturing jobs there.

This. We don't want the events of the Fallout trilogy happening for real, now do we?
 
^ Exactly. It will take time and... a lessening of profit for us to extract ourselves from the vice our greed (profits are all that matter!) has placed us in. Of course, first we have to *want* to get out of it, and I don't see that happening anytime soon, if ever.
 
^ Exactly. It will take time and... a lessening of profit for us to extract ourselves from the vice our greed (profits are all that matter!) has placed us in. Of course, first we have to *want* to get out of it, and I don't see that happening anytime soon, if ever.

Good, bring back manufacturing to the US to create jobs for the dwindling middle class, and give the economy the boost it needs. Hopefully this is the kick in the pants needed to do that. I would gladly pay more for shit manufactured in the US over cheap china shit.
 
Good, bring back manufacturing to the US to create jobs for the dwindling middle class, and give the economy the boost it needs. Hopefully this is the kick in the pants needed to do that. I would gladly pay more for shit manufactured in the US over cheap china shit.

Hate to break it to you, but factory jobs aren't "middle-class" anymore. Only reason they were in the 50's was because everybody else was bombed to shit after WWII.
 
Hate to break it to you, but factory jobs aren't "middle-class" anymore. Only reason they were in the 50's was because everybody else was bombed to shit after WWII.

Depends on how you define it. Generally "Middle-Class" is a great deal lower in income than people think it is....even then the official census measures of things like median-income are great distorted by CEO payscales. My brother was taking home $75k a year working for BP, he didn't know or guess that he was in the top-25% income group.

Also, post-WW2 USA wasn't as fucked up WRT income disparity as it is now.
 
Depends on how you define it. Generally "Middle-Class" is a great deal lower in income than people think it is....even then the official census measures of things like median-income are great distorted by CEO payscales. My brother was taking home $75k a year working for BP, he didn't know or guess that he was in the top-25% income group.

Also, post-WW2 USA wasn't as fucked up WRT income disparity as it is now.

$75k a year is damn good in any country. Did your brother think he was doing bad?

Anyway middle-class used to be a reliable job, a house, a car, a wife and a couple of kids - the American Dream. Even if factory work comes back it's not going to be all that anymore.
 
Yeah, back before globalization (and the accompanying destruction of trade barriers) made it so that you were in wage competition with 3rd world countries. What's that? The Union is demanding X wages? Well, we'll just set ourselves up in 2nd or 3rd world country that doesn't have squat for labor laws and pay them X-Infinity in wages. Heck, we don't even have to give them any benefits. Shareholders will love it!
 
Man, brown people get blamed for everything now-a-days. Even China is afraid of brown people now.
 
American policies are coming back to bite them in the ass.
Corporations being cheap skates and not investing in manufacturing and our government acting like encryption is evil.
I wish the US would wake the fuck up to how stupid its been acting.

Exactly, corporations are loosing trade secrets and its about time they really take security seriously.
 
They didn't specifically mention it... but this doesn't sound like it would effect US manufacturing customers as much as posters seem to be implying.

These laws look to prevent US companies selling their goods in China.

Cisco can probably make as many routers/switches in China as they want, they just wouldn't be able to sell any there.

China is a huge market, US companies have been trying to do business there for 10 years or more. While China is know for bias to local companies, this would be worse obviously.
 
So it is probably a good thing that they have semiconductor industry tightly regulated...

Imagine if AMD and Intel managed to setup shop in China... Intel would be at where AMD is now, and AMD would be what 3dfx is, history.
 
You know... I don't see why US Companies don't pull out of China. Sure, they have cheap manufacturing... but isn't India pretty much the same way these days? If US does pull out of China, China would crash worst than US I think. Esp if we move to India, since we'd have the same service at probably the same price.
 
You know... I don't see why US Companies don't pull out of China. Sure, they have cheap manufacturing... but isn't India pretty much the same way these days? If US does pull out of China, China would crash worst than US I think. Esp if we move to India, since we'd have the same service at probably the same price.

Minimal tech infrastructure, there. The Chinese companies exist ready and FoxConn for example can change an entire assembly process in 12 hours if you need a revision. T hey have the expertise, and experience, and facilities, and are ready to go. Move to India or pretty much anywhere else other than China...and you have to build your own factories and train your own workers....and you spend a ton more money. Which is exactly what outsourcing isn't about.

That is why. CEOs don't care about the politics, they only see $$$$$ signs of their stock portfolio going up. And odds are they'd presume the industrial spys already have all their dirty laundry anyway. They'll bend over.
 
Minimal tech infrastructure, there. The Chinese companies exist ready and FoxConn for example can change an entire assembly process in 12 hours if you need a revision. T hey have the expertise, and experience, and facilities, and are ready to go. Move to India or pretty much anywhere else other than China...and you have to build your own factories and train your own workers....and you spend a ton more money. Which is exactly what outsourcing isn't about.

That is why. CEOs don't care about the politics, they only see $$$$$ signs of their stock portfolio going up. And odds are they'd presume the industrial spys already have all their dirty laundry anyway. They'll bend over.

I can see that. I can't imagine it would be too hard for them to build facilities in India, and a spread of facilities should benefit them more, as India and China would compete, and even further lower the cost. That said... History has shown that none of these people care about long term success compared to short term profits.
 
This. We don't want the events of the Fallout trilogy happening for real, now do we?

The problem is, it's much more likely we have screwed ourselves enough to the point where that is unavoidable. Every great civilization eventually meets it's end. We are no different and immune to the same fate.
 
I should say we are NOT immune to it. The geopolitical status that's been inflicted on China and Russia will only deteriorate further unless we pull ourselves away from the brink we are rapidly approaching. *shrug* I'm not fully ready for a downfall of our society but honestly? I really still think it's outright unavoidable.

Just thank the anti-vaxxers when some nasty new variant of measles & smallpox shows up.
 
You know... I don't see why US Companies don't pull out of China. Sure, they have cheap manufacturing... but isn't India pretty much the same way these days? If US does pull out of China, China would crash worst than US I think. Esp if we move to India, since we'd have the same service at probably the same price.

Because unlike China most places are not willing to provide heavy subsidization for their companies. You cannot beat the Chinese in many cases because the government will flush and industry with insane support. Then they will dump product killing most competitors. So you setup shop there, then they learn everything about your company and then they build a copy and start to out compete you. When they are strong enough then they outlaw your ability to sell to their citizens and slowly kill your company. Over and over. The problem is most US companies think they are smarter and can out run it. But they aren't. once you sell out the infrastructure you cant just snap your fingers and rebuild it.

The real power of China is its single party top down government, when the guys at the top decide to do something it gets done fast period. In places like the USA and India the democracy fails to compete because everyone is constantly arguing about shit. Is this Ok for the people, is it OK for the environment, is it OK for religion? its the same reason Russia was so powerful for a while. Now its possible they will screw up but so far for the last 20 years or so the Chinese have not screwed up. Also when anything goes wrong in China, like a whole city doesn't pay its debt, the Chinese government just makes the problem go away. Because everything has to look smooth to the people and the outside world. Ironically it creates something of a decent level of security. Not like the USA where dems and republicans can sit their and push the whole country to the edge default because people are vote pandering over illegal Mexicans.

Now here is the kicker most Americans are ignorant and they think we cant do anything about China because China holds our debt. Actually that's false, the Chinese need us right now we are like Siamese twins. The problem isn't that the problem is Americans are too sissy to do anything about it. We are so scared that our economy might be bad that we will sell out the security and lives of our children we are selfish beyond belief. Right now we can demand lots of China because their government has to keep their people happy, if America cuts off trade with China, the communist regime collapses. They will do whatever we tell them to keep their power the only thing is we have to be ready and willing to go through an economic collapse which we will survive because we are more robust. The USA doesn't need to export to China to survive, China needs to export to the USA to survive. If China calls in its US debt we can simply print more money, not shit they can do about it. Our people just have to be ready and willing to sustain the inflation. We have the ability, we have the food, we have the basics we need, the Chinese don't. But wait a couple decades and the Chinese will no longer need us for exports then when they call in the debt we wont have any leverage at all and they will simply destroy us. Its a half century long chess game and we are falling into a check mate but we could stop it, unfortunately we wont because we are too lame.
 
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