Cert Vs Degree

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Supreme [H]ardness
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OK what do you guys think of this..
My Friend has 2 Degree's in IT
Associates of Applied Sciences- Cisco Networking
Bachelor's of Information Technology- Minor in Network Security

Do you think he should waste time/money on cert's like A+, Net+ etc...
Right now he works for a WISP as a Service Manager
 
IMO, you need a degree or degrees to get started. Unless you're going to remain an academic, your marketability then comes from professional certifications. For example, a degree in accounting is only one step - you truly become marketable with a CA, CMA etc... Is an Associate of Applied Science a degree? Generally I haven't found degrees to specialize in vendors like you're stating. That would be like an accounting degree specializing in Quickbooks or something...
 
This thread might get rough, lol.

If he can get a job he wants without certs then no, he shouldn't bother.

In my experience, people with degrees are more likely to be in managements positions, but they usually still start at the bottom with everyone else. A degree (without experience) doesn't get you any further than no degree (and no experience).
 
Surly73 said:
IMO, you need a degree or degrees to get started. Unless you're going to remain an academic, your marketability then comes from professional certifications. For example, a degree in accounting is only one step - you truly become marketable with a CA, CMA etc... Is an Associate of Applied Science a degree? Generally I haven't found degrees to specialize in vendors like you're stating. That would be like an accounting degree specializing in Quickbooks or something...
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That's what the degree is called- its an associates in Cisco Networking basically
 
Vito_Corleone said:
That's exactly the opposite of what I've seen. Getting started usually consists of getting a low-level helpdesk position and working your way up.
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what he did, he worked through college and got his first degree then Bachelor's after
 
Vito_Corleone said:
So he should have a decent amount of experience, I imagine he wouldn't have much trouble finding a job.
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Forgot to add, We live in MI and jobs are ruff.....
He has a nice job but its a smaller company so does not pay well. Any idea's for him that will help him out. I know he has a resume on Dice and Monster... but not finding much
 
Vito_Corleone said:
That's exactly the opposite of what I've seen. Getting started usually consists of getting a low-level helpdesk position and working your way up.
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Different worlds, I guess...

To me, post-secondary education was always a given requirement. In context I didn't intend to mean that "getting started" was sitting there in Grade 11 or 12, or in a general arts degree with no major thinking "now what?" That doesn't sound like where the OP's friend is either.

My degree isn't ivy league, but it is a from very well respected 5 year program and one of the best of its kind... It was also a co-op program alternating work and school terms which allowed me to pay my way through with real job experience in my field. Employers are more likely to "take a chance" on an intern that is leaving in 4 months than a full time employee. You get lots of opportunities and if you have clue you're generally given "real work" which leads to lots of experience. You're expected to "screw up" and learn like a sponge from everyone around you.

At my current age and relative seniority, the degree doesn't mean a whole lot in a job search except as a base, but a bunch of CCIE, CISSP, JNE, MBA, PMP after your name is worth a lot more. This is partially the fault of candidate selection being an automated search for keywords as opposed to real humans looking for applicants with clue. Even when real humans look at the resume, they assume that a certification equals clue - it does not. I've met more morons certified up the wazoo than I can shake a stick at. The sad fact is that the certs matter if you're trying to get hired (or noticed).

If the OP's buddy has an associate degree in Cisco, go bang out a CCNA and CCDP/NP - it should be simple, in theory, and then he's got a vendor certification to list at the very least.
 
I am in KC. When I was looking for jobs, I didn't get far on monster and the rest. What I did do right was throw the girlfriend in the car with a pad of paper and pen and start driving around. if your town has tech centers / industrial parks....drive around and write business names down. Then spend a day or two going to all of those websites. don't forget cites, counties, state, and other govt departments.

almost 4 yrs ago, I found a job 3 months out of college without the help of friends and without monster and the rest.

...keep the list ;)
 
See how well my 2 cents is accepted.

IF you want to remain a system tech your entire life, get certs.

IF you want to further your career and become more valuable than a system tech, get a degree. college teaches you more than just what you learn in the class room, and it will give you the knowledge and organization you need to manage people, not just technology.
 
Certs get you in the door and in on the entry level stuff. They're also good to keep up with Vendor software/equipment. You don't necessarily need a formal education to go up the ladder, just good opportunity. Although a four year degree will make more opportunities available to you.
 
I'm getting a degree because I should've a long time ago and it's something I'm ashamed that I never finished. Yeah 8 years that I have under my belt has helped carry me through to new jobs but in reality I work for people that I've worked with/for in the past that have moved on and opened doors for me. Simply because they know my work ethic. It really is who you know these days. And even in large cities, it's easy to get a really good or really bad reputation among the IT community.

In reality my degree is only going to do two things for me: get me past the salary cap I'm currently at, and put me in the same league if I chose to move to another job as someone with the same experience and a degree when competing for that job. I'm getting certifications along the way as well so when I go for the job I really want, I'll stand out just that much more. Get the degree because you want to, not because you have to. I know plenty that make great money and don't have one. I've talked to many different HR people, and when I bring up a degree most have said it's just something they check off with candidates. A degree never hurts. It shows commitment to finish something you started.
 
QHalo said:
In reality my degree is only going to do two things for me: get me past the salary cap I'm currently at, and put me in the same league if I chose to move to another job as someone with the same experience and a degree when competing for that job.
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Bingo. I quickly hit a magical glass salary ceiling that a degree pushed me through.

I still haven't figured out this whole debate though. Why not just get both in true [H] fashion? :D
 
k1pp3r said:
...
IF you want to remain a system tech your entire life, get certs.

IF you want to further your career and become more valuable than a system tech, get a degree. college teaches you more than just what you learn in the class room, and it will give you the knowledge and organization you need to manage people, not just technology.
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Perfectly summarized.

For most, if you want a career, get a degree; if you want a job, get certs. As a former senior manager, this is the way I always looked at the resumes that came across my desk.
 
I'm a network engineer and I don't have a Degree. I only have my a+ and Security+. What I had going for me was my four year career in the Air Force and my Security Clearance.

If I had my degree I would be making $20,000 more than I am now! Be cool, stay in school.
 
I think he should want to have both. I live in Michigan right now, and I feel that I was lucky to get the current 3 month contract to possible hire job I have right now. That being said I have a BA in Telecom (in reality it does stuff with both phones and computers) and I'm now working on my certifications as well. I plan on working on an MBA with in the next few years.

The issue comes down to this, when there is a bad economy and people are getting 300 resumes for one position, who is more likely to get the job. The person with a degree and experience or the person with a degree, experience, and certs. In a rough job market you need all the help you can get.

Personally I see no value in Associates Degrees, that could be because myself and many people I know went straight for a BA or BS.

On another note some companies really require certs just so they can keep their partner status, i.e. MS Gold Provider or so forth. In cases like that they may take the certs over you vs having to pay for you to get your certs to keep compliance with their partner agreements.
 
k1pp3r said:
college teaches you more than just what you learn in the class room
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Like what? This is all I ever hear from people who have degrees and think they are somehow better or more educated than someone with actual industry experience.

Are you talking about the booze parties, late night cram sessions because you didn't study, the pointless homework over theory instead of hands on application?

Please tell me what more there is to learn about college other than in the classroom? (Minus social nonsense like frats)

I have my AA from a Community College and did 1 year past that at a 4 year University and all I leaned was that college is one huge scam.
 
cyr0n_k0r said:
all I leaned was that college is one huge scam.
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Very true. I'm currently attending a 4 year university and finding the same exact things to be true. I almost wish I wouldn't have had experience so I wouldn't get so frustrated with learning material I know has nothing to do with what I'd like to do. Just keep this in mind, you NEED that degree to have, like said previously in this thread, a career versus a job.

I feel that 99% of what I will carry on to use in my career is the material I teach myself, not that material learned in classes.. It's a sad realization, but I know that the more I research on my own, the better off I'll be, and I will also have the degree to get my foot in the door for an interview.
 
College is a huge stepping stone into a career. That's almost a given.

One of the biggest skills I've learned was not so much the subject matter but more so analytical thinking. How do I approach a problem and in what ways can it be corrected? That was due to my CIS classes.

Some people get nothing out of school while others do. It's all dependent on the person really and their willingness to learn.
 
cyr0n_k0r said:
Like what? This is all I ever hear from people who have degrees and think they are somehow better or more educated than someone with actual industry experience.

Are you talking about the booze parties, late night cram sessions because you didn't study, the pointless homework over theory instead of hands on application?

Please tell me what more there is to learn about college other than in the classroom? (Minus social nonsense like frats)

I have my AA from a Community College and did 1 year past that at a 4 year University and all I leaned was that college is one huge scam.
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For responsible people, you learn how to manage yourself and keep organized, manage time schedules and such.

I have acctual industry experience, 7 years of it, and i'm 26. So no i didn't go to college, and if i wanted to remain a tech all my life that would be fine. However learning how to manage myself in college would have helped me out. I have advanced out of the daily tech route now, however it was a very rough and trying transition.
 
cyr0n_k0r said:
I have my AA from a Community College and did 1 year past that at a 4 year University and all I leaned was that college is one huge scam.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what four year college you attended, but at mine, I learned an incredible amount while pursuing my computer engineering degree. It wasn't just the technical things I learned, but also the analytical skills that I use on a daily basis at a large enterprise firm.

I'm sorry that you receive the same experience, but you shouldn't generalize colleges as one big scam. The well respected schools get their recognition for a reason.
 
For some people a degree is helpful, some need more schooling. For others a degree is only good to please the people who think you need one to be qualified. And only really as of late have there been any real IT degrees that teach you anything worth a shit job related. You can learn analytical skills on the job or playing minesweeper on expert. ;)
 
Zlash said:
For some people a degree is helpful, some need more schooling. For others a degree is only good to please the people who think you need one to be qualified. And only really as of late have there been any real IT degrees that teach you anything worth a shit job related. You can learn analytical skills on the job or playing minesweeper on expert. ;)
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Go into a job interview and say, "I beat Minesweeper on expert."

Record and post. :)
 
college teaches you more than just what you learn in the class room
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I got a lot of value just out of the experience of going to school. That being said I was involved in a lot of other things such as the Greek Life (where I basically managed a small business for 2 years running the place) or student organizations. Then again I went to a large public university and not a specialty school, so its possible that your mileage may vary.

No matter what you are doing whether its school, cert tests, what ever you will only get as much out of something as you want to, and its up to you to decide how you want to approach that situation. You can go just for the degree or you can go for the degree and try and find some interesting electives that might be fun or give you a different outlook on things.

I think far too many people especially in the technology field are too one dimensional.
 
KarFai said:
I think far too many people especially in the technology field are too one dimensional.
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My boss said the exact same thing when I first started working for him. And it's true.
 
Gott said:
My boss said the exact same thing when I first started working for him. And it's true.
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Sad part is its very true. I try to learn and know as much as I can that pertains to my job. There is so much out there though that i don't even know and I only begun to scratch the surface.
 
I would say recruiters are even more one dimensional, they really are simple beings. I understand that IT is a complex field and there are many sub categories. I met with one last week who called me about a job, which sounded good and let them forward my CV. Turns out the recruiter didn't understand half of my CV (google takes seconds) and they were offering me HALF what I was looking for. "But the employer is really keen to meet you!” I wonder why..

I think they only understand the word degree and take a guess with the experience and buzzwords, half the butte with job hunting is getting the recruiter to understand what you can do. Luckily, I picked up a juicy programming contract virtually the next day.
 
Gott said:
Go into a job interview and say, "I beat Minesweeper on expert."

Record and post. :)
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Beating it is nothing special, I said playing...doing it over and over and fast will help you learn to analyze things quickly. Threw it out there because I was bored at work and playing at the time of the post. ;)
 
Really, a degree makes your job into a career? I guess a cert will making you a freakin expert in that technology too. Face it, there are as many paper tiger degree holders as there are paper tiger cert holders. The only proof they offer is you are one step above a complete buffoon. It may only be a small step.
 
The bottom line is this; Having a 4-year degree from an accredited institution will over the lifetime of one's professional career consistently yield higher compensation for most people (if they have the skills to do the job as well).

Yes, there are folks who have no degree, and no formal education at all, who are making mad cash. However, considering the workforce as a whole, those are the exceptions that stick out like a sore thumb.

The degree is just a rite of passage, it is no indication of the skill one has, in fact, in many cases it doesn't matter what you got a degree in, just that you have one. I know plenty of people with flimsy liberal arts degrees who now successfully work in IT. Likewise a good friend of mine went through a double major of math and CS, and is now a successful lawyer working primarily on contract law cases.

Degrees are good, get them while you are young, because once life hits it will be infinitely more difficult to get one.
 
Gott said:
College is a huge stepping stone into a career. That's almost a given.

One of the biggest skills I've learned was not so much the subject matter but more so analytical thinking. How do I approach a problem and in what ways can it be corrected? That was due to my CIS classes.

Some people get nothing out of school while others do. It's all dependent on the person really and their willingness to learn.
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*DING DING DING*

On average, people who went through college come out with an overall edge "in everything". There's a lot that you gain from the experience..besides pure subject matter.
 
I would recommend doing everything you can to make yourself look good on paper. Even if you're friend is better in every facet compared to "Joe Schmoe" he's not going to get to prove it without a good resume. Often Certs don't mean jack. Anybody can cram their heads full of facts and pass a certification exam.

Basically:
Certification - gets you the interview
Experience - gets you the good jobs.
Degree - gets you the salary

It's obviously not that simple, but that's how I've always seen it. It really all depends on the person who's hiring you. Some people like certs some like degrees some like exp...what helps the most is being the guy who is flexible and all three types want to hire.

cyr0n_k0r said:
I have my AA from a Community College and did 1 year past that at a 4 year University and all I leaned was that college is one huge scam.
Click to expand...

I went to a 4 year college for 2 years and didn't learn much at all. Then I transfered to community college and have learned more than I ever dreamed of through my professors. Again, it all depends on the people you are involved in. It was only 2 of my 10(ish) teachers at the community college that taught me everything I learned while there.
 
k1pp3r said:
For responsible people, you learn how to manage yourself and keep organized, manage time schedules and such.

I have acctual industry experience, 7 years of it, and i'm 26. So no i didn't go to college, and if i wanted to remain a tech all my life that would be fine. However learning how to manage myself in college would have helped me out. I have advanced out of the daily tech route now, however it was a very rough and trying transition.
Click to expand...

k1pp3r said:
See how well my 2 cents is accepted.

IF you want to remain a system tech your entire life, get certs.

IF you want to further your career and become more valuable than a system tech, get a degree. college teaches you more than just what you learn in the class room, and it will give you the knowledge and organization you need to manage people, not just technology.
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Those are both excellent quotes. +1 for each.

I have both a degree and many certs with more coming in the future. That way I get to keep my options open and it makes me more marketable (not to mention higher paid).
 
Not to go too off-topic here, but doesn't it seem like there's a "cert vs degree" thread debate on this forum every week?
 
The bottom line is this; Having a 4-year degree from an accredited institution will over the lifetime of one's professional career consistently yield higher compensation for most people (if they have the skills to do the job as well).
Click to expand...

I've read many many articles in the last year especially in Forbes and other similar magazines that the return on investment on a lot of college degrees is not worth it. Considering the loans and the interest that accumulates it becomes a huge burden for a lot of people and for most jobs the marginally higher salary doesn't compensate for the debt a lot of people have after college.

Here's one such article.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12409530/
 
Zlash said:
I've read many many articles in the last year especially in Forbes and other similar magazines that the return on investment on a lot of college degrees is not worth it. Considering the loans and the interest that accumulates it becomes a huge burden for a lot of people and for most jobs the marginally higher salary doesn't compensate for the debt a lot of people have after college.

Here's one such article.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12409530/
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In response I can recommend the book "How to lie with Statistics" by Huff.
It's trivial to hand-pick a couple extraordinarily expensive schools, and then say that a couple people in the overall workforce did manage to become billionaires without to ever go to college.

The only phrase I found relevant in that article was that it doesn't matter what classes you take and what degree you get as long as you get one.

In reality the fact of life is that especially in the current economy and in the economy for years to come, you as employee will be more valuable if you hold a degree.

For most every job there are hundreds of applicants. Applications are electronically processed and if you do not have a degree the machine will discard your application even before a human will ever see it. Sure, if you keep applying for jobs at small companies you will probably get an interview, who knows.

College debt doesn't have to be as big as they make it out to be. There are plenty of need-based and merit-based scholarships to supplement grants or loans. A 4-year degree from a State University will run you about 30-40K, you can supplement your income by working at the institution as student employee.

As a side-note, I find it hilarious how most folks don't think twice about buying that $40K pick-up truck they have no real use for, but cringe at investing into their future.

If you set out on your own, in consulting or perhaps to create the next Microsoft or Google, yeah, then you don't need a degree to do that. However, if your career path is built on you being an employee, then you are simply better off with a college degree, because you will be one of millions of others.

In the end though, college isn't for everyone, and not everyone should go to college. The market has plenty of need for folks that didn't do higher education.
 
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