A lot of vitriol towards Carmack that I do not understand. Are we judging him as a person because he and/or his company decided to take a different business approach? What harm did he do to us? I do not understand some of the slander in this thread.
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Carmack states he made a mistake and should have focused on PCs first.
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Valshistixol
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I WANT HIS HEAD ON MY DESK!!!
michael.pa2
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I agree but on that same note, for $20, taken on its own merits, the single player to me was "decent."
I do give most of the blame to Raven for that. They made the game. It's their garbage.
Once ID farmed if off, technically, why should they care after that? It's not their problem and there's nothing they can do about it once it's out from under their purview.
I'm speaking strictly from a business point of view from their side.
As a gamer and a fan, sure, I'm with you all the way but that's just not how it works.
michael.pa2
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You have to look at it from the long time,diehard PC gamer's viewpoint. We've been inundated with console crap,few games these days are innovative and fewer are developed to take full advantage of a PC's superior capabilities. For many of us,iD started us on PC gaming,from Doom to Quake,they were what PC gaming was all about. Their "approach" in recent times is viewed as a betrayal of the gamers that made them a success,another sellout on a long list of sellouts to consoles.
I like Carmack. He is a real credit to gaming development, a true programing genius. I like his attitude that games in general need to focus on creativity and content and less on painting a pretty picture with graphics. He seems to think that the tech side of gaming is reaching the point of "good enough" as far as frame rates, anti aliasing, input latency, and that game development can focus more on the artistic and content side of gaming; fun, creative gameplay.
One topic I didn't hear him mention is artificial intelligence. That still has a lot of room for improvement. I think devs have been slacking in general in that area allowing multiplayer to kind of carry the water in that regard. Why develop AI when you can have the players do all the work for you?
One topic I didn't hear him mention is artificial intelligence. That still has a lot of room for improvement. I think devs have been slacking in general in that area allowing multiplayer to kind of carry the water in that regard. Why develop AI when you can have the players do all the work for you?
Master Blaster
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I would argue the opposite as an older game who was raised on id software games. I understand their decisions as of recently. Their decisions are dictated by the market and the market is extremely volatile right now. If they go against the stream, they'll drown - easy as that. Luckily JC is such a respected figure and a visionary that the market usually listens to what he has to say about things.
I don't know why people are taking their decisions to support consoles more as "they turned their back on us PC gamers!". Why wold any PC gamer take it personally when every developer is saying the same thing?
Anyways, RAGE got pushed back to October and I'm bummed about that...but oh well. I can't wait to play it, I think people will be pleasantly surprised.
I'm sorry but I do not see the correlation between that and the seemingly unwarranted bashing that is going on towards Carmack and/or his company. And it's not like I don't have perspective; I am a long time PC gamer as well, I understand the frustrations with the console effect on many previous PC-only franchises. But I don't see how that would enable people to act in such a manner. Well, maybe I do, because it's not a gaming thing but the world we live in today - a world of entitlement and generation "me".
But outside of it, think for a second.
The company Awesome Pizza (fictional?) decides after 5 years to stop offering pepperoni as a topping. Everybody loved their pepperoni and had found memories of this glorious sausage.
Would it be okay for people to call the owner, Mr. Tony Montana, a douche, asshole, dumbass, etc etc etc because they as a business decided to take a chance and do something different? Or even that recent event with the "Alamo Drafthouse". It's their company and they make the rules and decisions.
Bottom line is, I can AGREE that their path has not been favourable but one should vote with their wallet and not resort themselves to judging one's human character with unwarranted insults. We all make mistakes, we all learn from them.
Andrew_Carr
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I'd definitely agree on the AI point. I played games with better AI 10 years ago than some of the ones out now. It's like scripting of events & multiplayer has totally replaced AI, which is unfortunate.
TwistedAegis
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Seconded. I remember playing the first Half Life and being impressed by the marine's behavior. While it has improved over time for some games, I can't say I've received an equal "wow" moment about AI since then.
This is why I respect him.
My take is it comes in ebbs and flows. When the next new console generation is released, the computational power balance of the different platforms won't be so huge. Once it hits 3-4 years after release, the gap widens again. IMO changing up your development based on the platforms and their aging would be a better solution than just sticking to say PCs, or the XBOX full time and then porting.
YeuEmMaiMai
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Sure you can by using a direct comparison of actual pixel pushed and the x1800XL (ati low end at the time) completely obliterates the 360GPU in raw performance, it's even more emberassing to compare it to a X1800XT Won't even mention X1900 series because it totally lays waste to the 360.....and that was launched Jan 2006 shortly after Xbox 360...and GASP!! the PCs are running Windows!!! lawl....
360 actual render resolution
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1113344&postcount=3
typical performance depending upon title 30-60fps
Tom's Charts here
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/desktop-vga-charts-2006/benchmarks,22.html
YeuEmMaiMai
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Consoles will never "catch up" to PCs why is that do you ask? by the time the console comes out, the PC already has more powerful hardware........
let me add to that by stating
The PC ganer made companies like ID, 3D Realms, Epic, etc and we have watched as they have all abandoned us for an inferior platform for the types of games that they made for us......Don't they wonder why most of us still play graphically inferior games that have awesome gameplay mechanics?
So we should all be happy that mr Carmack basically crapped on us? and now wants to be our friend again? He is going to have to work long and hard to get that trust back...
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insaneshell
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so will EA, Crytek, Gearbox, Activision, Ubisoft, ect ect ect.
The only game company I actully respect is Valve, and why? Because there PC games rock, compare HL2 EP2 on Console to on the PC
WBurchnall
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Computer engineer ....and rocket scientist.... wow. I'm almost a little bit speechless.
Kind of funny no one has made the obligatory: "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out..." comment based off the subject of the thread.
Oh wait, looks like I just did.
These things would be a nice start: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037364828&postcount=43
I'll be impressed when I see results and action backing up these nice words.
Mr. Bluntman
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If a trend could get started somewhere, somehow.
I can't speak for anyone else and obviously I have a budget to consider but I would make it a point as I always do to open my wallet to a game that even REMOTELY interests me if this criteria is actually followed through with.
Master Blaster
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Please, this has to be the dumbest post ever on this forum.
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Andrew_Carr
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The one thing I'll say about this is that he doesn't need to earn my trust back. If he makes a good game for PC I'll probably buy it. If id keeps making shitty games then I won't buy them. It's really simple.
Modders might feel differently since they have more invested in it, but as long as they produce good games I have no problem giving them money. Now it's not like I'll trust them enough to preorder or anything, but I generally don't preorder anything, so that's not really a big thing to me.
Hell, I'd probably buy a game designed & created by CliffyB & Bobby Kotick if it was good enough.
All that being said, I don't expect id to start producing good games. Maybe they'll make it easier for others to produce games or they'll create good gameplay mechanics, and that's about all I'm hoping for.
YeuEmMaiMai
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please in your great wisdom tell us how that was the dumbest post? (this outta be good)
black_b[ ]x
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They farmed it out yes, but I'm sure the legal contract had limitations as to how much ID could stick their finger in the pie. (mud pie in this case?)
oh yeah, I forgot about that oneTwistedAegis said:
I would add NOLF (2000) which had multiple levels of alertness and could go up and down those levels if they saw a downed friend, heard a noise, lost your trail, etc. and they would duck in and out of cover to shoot at you. NOLF had dynamic music and sound with all of this (with a nice kettledrum shot when you stealth-kill someone with a headshot)Master Blaster
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It's not going to make a bit of difference to explain myself because people have always made up their mind regardless of when good information, ideas and new points of view are presented.
That being said this thread contains either people who are understanding to id's situation, or not. The later being annoying and catty just like children. But, these are probably the same people who keep saying Quake 4, Wolf 09, etc sucked and id software made it....all wrong.
You think that PC gamers "made" companies like id software, EPIC, Valve, etc...really?
Answer: No, not really.
What is this about trust issues and John crapping on you? If you've read any of other post in this thread, you'd see that essentially you have whiny brats who demand everything their way and never any other views into consideration.
Nobody in this world owes you anything, this would include JC and id software. Carmack has stated before that he'd would prefer to have the PC as his main development platform, but the market has dictated different. So for id software and their peers, they have two decisions:
A) Bend with the wind (develop for both consoles and pc's)
B) Break with the wind (develop only for pc's).
Would you prefer that id software goes away for good?...I know I wouldn't.
As PC gamers we're the minority as that just how things have evolved in the industry that we love. Don't get bent out of shape or take things as personal as you do. Carmack doesn't have to "earn" trust back because he never lost it. He was trying to push new boundaries of platform development so that ALL gamers could enjoy what they have to offer. He's always been very consistent with what he and id software produce; I respect that and love it. He was kind enough to give an interview and it's turned out to be a shit storm because people are reading into it. He is not and did not "turn his back" on PC gamers, maybe it's possible that you're looking a little too hard at something that's so simple, or maybe your turning on him?
He crapped on you? Do you have photographic evidence of him doing that? I didn't realize me was my friend, that he crapped on me or that he wanted to be my friend. Look, stop being dramatic about it. Yes, he and his company made some awesome games a long time ago that make you feel like you have some sort of marital bond with them. In recent years, he and company tried some alternative routes which did not turn out to be as successful as they thought. This of course resulting in some mediocre and sub-par games. The horror. If this your equivalent to him cheating on this fantasized "marriage" or "bond" with another lady, then I don't really no one to say.
Like I said, vote with your wallet. If you have, that's great. But to basically insinuate that he has wronged you on some sick level, well, they got padded rooms for those types.
YeuEmMaiMai
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YOU REALLY THINK PC GAMERS DID NOT MAKE ID? really? if wolfenstien 3D and doom failed, where would ID be today?
Anything new after doom 4? oh wow we got a rehash of quake 3 that you can play in a browser window and then one halfway decent release in 2K10
It's one thing to add on to a company so that you could to parallel console development (that's not what they did btw) it's an entirely different thing to pretty much abandon the PC platform and go to consoles (which is what they did). Now that they really have nothing to show for it, all of a sudden Carmack comes out and admitts be made a mistake.....lol and you guys suck it up no questions asked? His whole argument as to why he wanted to go to consoles was flawed in the first place (you know it's in that post that you said was too stupid to read)..........
it was a figure of speech but I guess you missed it. and he did betray the base that built his company and yes I did vote with my walled as I have not purchased any recent ID releases
He's not really a computer engineer. He's a software engineer, but yes, wow.
The first minute is by far the most telling; his claim that his work in video games is "far more complicated" than rocket design kind of puts things into perspective in terms of complexity.
Youn
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I'm sorry you feel this way and feel so deeply betrayed. Must suck being so sensitive. I hope the crap washes off easily, it's probably not easy making friends all smelly like that, eh?
Seriously (although I wasn't entirely joking) some of us are glad he seems to be taking a turn for the betterment of PC gaming. Some of us can even see the positive in what Rage brings to the future of game development in general. Is it a huge leap like Doom or Quake? I don't think so. But progress nevertheless. Can you at least admit the positive in his desire to focus more on PC next time around? Is it really that hard to see?
Oh, that's right, brown stuff covering your eyes...
Plague_Injected
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Carmack also says it's easier to get 60fps on consoles. How accurate is that, graphics expert d00ds?
LeninGHOLA
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Of course it is, rocket design only requires a few physics/math skillsets. Programming has fewer rules, thus more complicated usually.
Kaldskryke
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Carmack also said while accepting his prize at NASA that although graphics programming deals with much more complicated science and physics, it is still very difficult to create a rocket that works, despite the simplicity of the science.
defiant007
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That's the one observation made by Carmack that I also did not understand at all. Yes, programming directly to the metal without any overheads will be more efficient and give you better performance, but the fact of the matter is that consoles are rendering at subpar HD with lower texture resolutions, DX9 effects and very little in the way of texture filtering via AA and AF.
Surely if you are comparing apples to apples (i.e. you make sure that a PC is displaying exactly the same graphics as a console) the power of current PC's will easily be able to output the same level of graphics at 60 fps or more? Or perhaps he was referring to the development hurdles that a software engineer/developer has to go through to get to the point where a PC is outputting graphics at all?
I don't know, it just didn't seem to make sense to me....but then again I am no programmer.
He probably means that consoles are a known factor for their lifetime. So say you have a target of 60fps with certain level of graphics on a console - you can then start to optimize for it and try to chieve it, and easier to push the limits. That's why console games keep getting better on the same hw. But on a pc you have to account for a ton of differences even within the same family. No one wants to publish a game that only works on high end DX 11 hardware, so the game engine has to cater to a much bigger range.
This means that targeting a console lets you work with the same goals/tech during a ~2 year dev cycle, on a pc that's eternity and you have a constantly moving target and keep switching tech.
This means that targeting a console lets you work with the same goals/tech during a ~2 year dev cycle, on a pc that's eternity and you have a constantly moving target and keep switching tech.
defiant007
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Well, another confusing aspect of his observation is that I cannot think of very many console games that can actually output at 60 fps, in fact a lot of them struggle to smoothly output 30 fps most of the time.
Valshistixol
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What he meant was that because of the overhead of the software on PCs such as the operating system it takes more power to run at the same resolution/fps on a PC than it does on a console. But that doesn't really matter since computers now are magnitudes more powerful than current consoles and computers 6 years ago were more powerful than current consoles.
Developers on consoles are trying to get the best graphics they can at 720p or less while trying to maintain a good frame rate. Think about the MW3 devs who specifically state they are trying to get decent graphics on the consoles but their main goal is to keep a stable 60fps meanwhile PCs will be able to run MW3 at something stupid like 5760x1200 with 4xAA and 16xAF.
One thing that is not progressing on PC is resolution, unless you have multiple monitors. Running at 1080p is quite frankly insulting considering the power we have now.
Plague_Injected
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Running at 1080p or 1920x1200 is basically the practical limit until higher-resolution displays become more affordable. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but recently it was still cheaper to buy three 1080p monitors and run Eyefinity than to buy one 30" at 2560x1440.
Valshistixol
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Pretty sure I could have bought 3 really crappy 1080p monitors for the $400 I paid for my U2410. Would love a 120hz display since my main focus is gaming but not sure if it's worth getting rid of my U2410.
Master Blaster
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You know, it's funny after watching the video again how a few seconds out of an entire clip unfolded into 4+pages of feuding. It's almost as if the video posted was John interpreted way incorrectly. I mean, even the title of this thread was taken way out of context.
It was just John being John and giving us a great interview about the development cycle during Rage. Oh, how funny things tailspin....
It was just John being John and giving us a great interview about the development cycle during Rage. Oh, how funny things tailspin....