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Can you list reasons why Windows 8 is bad other than UI?
- Thread starter TheBuzzer
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This is the thing where perhaps I am missing something. What is the point of a wonderful UI (debatable but lets run with this) if when you are using your primary apps you can't see it? I guess dual screens is one option (and maybe I am missing more) but let me take it back a few years...
In Vista there was the sidebar, where with the widgets idea one could snap all those crappy blipvert type stuff to the right (typically anyway) whilst the other 3/4ths of your screen was filed with the app you were actually doing something with. Windows 7 could drag em around a bit and resize your focal app accordingly. In Windows 8 can I only snap one Metro app to the side - AFAIK anyway? So I can only get one live tile in my workspace where previously I could get multiple (or the old skool equivalent of)? As I say maybe I am missing something but doesn't *seem* like progress. We'll obviously skirt around the issue that Widgets / Gadgets are now unsecure
wonderfield
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You never press your Windows key? How are you performing searches and launching applications you haven't pinned?
bigdogchris
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People may be confusing DPC Latency Monitor for DPC Latency Checker. DPC Latency Checker does not support Windows 8. In fact, I didn't even know DPC Latency Monitor was a different program, until now.
Both programs seem to give the same results, which the results are not correct.
I never press Windows key. I dont search for my apps, they are always in my start menu right where they should be
heatlesssun
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So I can only get one live tile in my workspace where previously I could get multiple (or the old skool equivalent of)? As I say maybe I am missing something but doesn't *seem* like progress. We'll obviously skirt around the issue that Widgets / Gadgets are now unsecure
But the thing is that the Modern UI works for tablets. If you're not using a touch device or tablet I admit the Modern UI isn't that useful. But it will be a lot of fun I think as more and more apps come online.
wonderfield
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I don't believe I was asking you.
AMD T-type
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I never press Windows key. I dont search for my apps, they are always in my taskbar right where they should be
Software can "support" something and still have bugs right?
The fact that one DPC latency measuring tool had a bug with the way it operated under Win8 increases the likelihood that *other* DPC latency measuring tools will have similar bugs that may not have been fixed yet. This is the point that everyone is trying to convey, and it is a sound argument. It doesn't mean that there is or isn't a problem, it just means that everyone should probably reserve judgement until more analysis is done on the issue.
What is a "real-world" side effect of increased DPC latency? Surely there is something tangible that this latency would exhibit itself in, but it's outside my realm of expertise. It seems like looking for the SYMPTOMS of increased DPC latency would be an excellent way to verify or refute the results of the latency tools.
Sorry if this is too rational.
No it makes sense. I'd imagine the "micro stutter" in games in Win8 would be attributed to the high DPC latency. No game in Win8 is close to as smooth in Win7.
theres nothing wrong with my network latency. as it stands, league is the only game i play. i suppose the assumptions were 'multiplayer game' = 'network lag'. my fault.
UI is annoying half assed attempt by Ms, how come they couldnt have ported all Ms stuff into that they bundle with the os. Plus I found that even on a touch based device it was a sub par experience using just touch.
I also find metro fucking hideous, don't like the design at all. Colors are fugly, flat appearance is nasty. Stupid gestures. After using ios and android the ui is shit compared.
I also find metro fucking hideous, don't like the design at all. Colors are fugly, flat appearance is nasty. Stupid gestures. After using ios and android the ui is shit compared.
heatlesssun
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You keep saying this but you seem to be saying this in the context of using touch on the desktop and much of the point of Metro is to create a UI that works better with touch than the traditional desktop. When it comes to using Metro apps with touch things like web browsing, eReading, content apps, games, etc., the touch experience is on par with those same activities on iOS or Android.
No it makes sense. I'd imagine the "micro stutter" in games in Win8 would be attributed to the high DPC latency. No game in Win8 is close to as smooth in Win7, for me
fixed it for ya
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2840/win8dpclat.png <- here's mine, as you can see, <10 µs, typically stays there, even when playing a blu-ray from .mkv in mpc-hc. I did have to disable some things to get it like that, I think what it is, is that MS has to make trade-offs between usability and performance. Most users appreciate Windows Search for instance, however I get better latency with it disabled and I never have to search for anything since my system is very well organized, and so on.
One big thing you can do, is run this command: "bcdedit /set disabledynamictick yes" from an elevated cmd.exe prompt and reboot, Windows 8 by default lowers the tick rate when the cpu is not loaded to conserve energy, giving the impression of high latency. There are several other things you can do to decrease latency, I'll post them if someone wants.
Oh, and on my Win 8 install, BF3 and Skyrim are as smooth if not smoother than on Windows 7.
(Edit: I tried to create a guide on lowering latency in Windows, it's in my sig. It's not entirely scientific as I did not test the effect of each and every tweak/change, but the end result is agreeable.)
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Devil22- post them. I already disabled search as it causes my large copies to die. I find the biggest offenders of DPC latency are "features" or drivers built into Win8.
I emailed the author of DPC Latencymon asking about Win8 support, unfortunately his response wasnt as specific as my questions, but I think its pretty evident there are no further changes needed for Win 8 compatibility.
Yes, since version 4.02 LatencyMon also supports Windows 8.
Regards,
Daniel Terhell
Resplendence Software Projects
http://www.resplendence.com
[email protected]
I emailed the author of DPC Latencymon asking about Win8 support, unfortunately his response wasnt as specific as my questions, but I think its pretty evident there are no further changes needed for Win 8 compatibility.
Yes, since version 4.02 LatencyMon also supports Windows 8.
Regards,
Daniel Terhell
Resplendence Software Projects
http://www.resplendence.com
[email protected]
fixed it for ya
BF3 has a stutter not found in Win7, this one I've confirmed with Nvidia - they are duplicating this too. Sleeping dogs while running really high fps will time to time feel like 20 fps. Ghost Recon future soldier runs in 8 bit color on Win8, was told the game wont be supported under windows 8 by their support. A few other games I noticed stutter / audio popping issues with too which I believe can be attributed to the spikes in DPC latency in Win8.
So yea, there are gaming issues...
Check out windowslatency.blogspot.com - Pretty much everything I've done to my system to decrease latency is there. I get consistent and stable <10µs in DPC Lantecy Checker, and 4-6µs in Latency Monitor.
tigger1612
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How about Metros reliance on UAC for certain apps to run? Completely rediculous. You can't really disable UAC completely without it causing you to lose some functionality. This may not be a huge deal to some, but this shows me as a IT Pro that there is either going to be serious training and/or user frustration over repeated prompts to launch certain applications if we leave it on. I don't mind running 8 for the shear speed of it at home but using it makes the desktop feel like a tacked on addon that is now hindered by the integration of the metro interface and apps.
The only problem I currently have with 8 is the missing media center features. I still can't believe they stripped that out, especially since they never update it anyways. I have to wait until the plug-in is available on Oct 26 before I can really use 8, since all of my tuners are cable card based.
Media center should be getting continually enhanced, not shoved aside. Windows is the only OS that can do all the neat stuff the cable card tuners allow, yet most people have no clue about it.
Media center should be getting continually enhanced, not shoved aside. Windows is the only OS that can do all the neat stuff the cable card tuners allow, yet most people have no clue about it.
So if all this stuff works, I guess that confirms DPC latency works just fine with Win8 and these "tweaks" they are going to make are nothing more than smoke and mirrors to make people with high latency feel better.
Not necessarily. Some of the things are not actually high latency, but Windows 8 operating in low power mode. For instance the dynamictick, greatly increases latency according to Latency Monitor, but it is not because the system is laggy it's because the system is in a lower power state regarding the system ticks. Fixing Latency Monitor may be as much as calling an API to disable this feature while it is running, which is not really cheating as you insinuate because the tick rate would be increased if you loaded the CPU any way. I'm thinking this is not the only thing like this Win 8 does, and that it does something similar with regards to the general Power State, where if the cpu is not loaded it slows things down quite a bit. To conserve power (save the environment, yadda yadda) and increase battery life of mobile devices. The things I touch on in that guide, should be considered 'extreme latency chasing', you can play back audio and video without breaks with 1,000µs of latency. The makers of one of those latency checkers suggests you want about 100µs of latency. So tweaking to get less than 10µs is not really anything to do with a faulty implementation in the OS, it's just fun really.
wonderfield
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What testing have you done to confirm this phenomenon?
dr.stevil
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agreed
InternationalHat
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"Can you list the reasons why this car is bad other than how it punches you in the balls every time you try to drive it?"
Isn't that bad enough? I think the UI/Metro ecosystem is enough bad to keep a lot of people away. No one wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but 7 is good enough for now that if you don't want the Metro crap you're better off avoiding it all together.
Isn't that bad enough? I think the UI/Metro ecosystem is enough bad to keep a lot of people away. No one wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but 7 is good enough for now that if you don't want the Metro crap you're better off avoiding it all together.
Yea who wants a more efficient, prettier interface? IDIOTS I tell ya.
More efficient and prettier is subjective, or at least it's dependent on how people use their computers. That's the problem MS has; in order for win8 to be a success, they have to change the way people are currently using their computers.
Which is why most of us that do end user support are sitting here, shaking our heads; users hate change, especially when there is no immediate and obvious benefit for them. There is no end user buy in, and MS isn't giving them an option to avoid this change that will still generate money for them ( their "out" is to NOT buy win8 ).
InternationalHat
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It's uglier. It's garish and it's unbalanced. The usability is up for debate.
Metro is an ecosystem not just an interface. Avoiding buying 8 means companies might see the sales numbers and not build idiotic metro-ecosystem apps. This is a good thing.
heatlesssun
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But people are constantly changing the way they are interacting with computing devices. Much more mobile and touch oriented even with productive tasks. With the desktop market flat and even in slight decline I don't see how producing and focusing solely on the desktop with is a good long term proposition as more and more people go with more mobile devices to not only consume content but to create it and there's a LOT of work going on in the mobile app world to develop more and more complex and productivity apps.
I'm not saying that these apps would ever replace a desktop in function but from the perspective of what certain individuals need tablets can certainly replace the need for desktops and laptops.
The market is simply changing in dramatic and permanent ways and the traditional desktop is just not in alignment with how so many people now use computing devices. There's simply no way that Windows would have much of a future particularly in the consumer world if it is solely focused on the desktop.
Subjective opinions beget subjective opinions. Or do you think Windows 8 literally punches you in the balls? Anyways, you use the word 'change' but technically anything except the exact same OS as Windows 7 would be a 'change.' Call it pedant, but I think people sound like they are saying nothing because they are.
Many users hate change, but almost all of them get over it, especially if it is quantify-ably better (pinning apps to the start screen, will definitely mean you open them in fewer clicks than navigating the start menu.) Later, many of them swear by it and refuse to change to future versions in a silly self-defeating cycle. It's the nature of computer users I suppose. The end user buy in, is that you get technical improvements and better efficiency, I think the modern UI looks really nice as well, but yes you would call that subjective.
Well, I guess we can just sit here and go back and forth all day then, because I find it to be the best looking OS I've seen to date. No idea what unbalanced means in that context, or why usability is up for debate, such things never run through my mind as I'm using it, I'm just enjoying my time using it and getting things done faster. Also, your fantasy of nobody buying Windows 8 is just that, by this time next year there will probably be 300-400 million Windows 8 users, with more metro apps than you will probably have time to find silly reasons to hate.
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heatlesssun
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Actually the Modern UI by design is technically anti-garish. It resists the use of chrome or ornamentation.
Your right, by heading right back into the past...resist the chrome and ornamentation cause some moron at MS was nostalgic. priceless.
Efficiency is debatable, as has been pointed out. But I like your example. Do you know what any average user will ask? "Why is that better than putting a shortcut on my desktop?".
Why is that any better? Is it? By itself, I can't say that it is; just different.
As for the rest of your reasons, good luck explaining that to end users. Give it a try, let me know how that works out for you.
Ah, so you could pin and unpin items from that AOL program? See live tile updates? Launch programs in a regular desktop? Search? Have desktop class applications? No? Then basically it's about as useful a comparison as a Fiero to a Ferrari, I mean those look alike too!Your right, by heading right back into the past...resist the chrome and ornamentation cause some moron at MS was nostalgic. priceless.
XOR != OR
Efficiency is debatable in what way exactly? I can open every program I have in 2 clicks, versus 5 in Windows 7. We can 'debate' that all day, those numbers ain't changing. Putting shortcuts on your desktop causes your desktop to be cluttered, which users use as a workspace for their data files. Imagine the average newb trying to select a group of obsolete data files and deleting them, would be pretty easy and common to toss out shortcuts, and they'd often get in the way. I've already explained this to people and they were quite agreeable, so what's next?
heatlesssun
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No dynamic content or notifications on the AOL screen, pointless comparison beyond very superficial looks.
Ah, but why would you resurrect the ugliest superficial look ever?
Why does Ferrari do it? Maybe looking like something that's totally different, doesn't mean a thing?
heatlesssun
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My Start Screen looks nothing like the AOL screen. Plus a static picture doesn't convey the live tiles. In any case people can debate the aesthetics all day long, some people will hate it, some people will love it, most really aren't going to care on way or the other.