haste.

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
1,651
Why would we
Because it's silly? Not sure how long you have been around, but this whole debacle gives AMD a chance to catch up. Something I think nearly everyone can agree is a good thing in the GPU arena. Often in management you allow others to fail and learn from their mistakes. Su sure as hell doesn't seem like an idiot, but they have to get their GPU technology at least past mainstream. Although Vega VII is also new technology, the preliminary showing is no better than the falling on the face that Nvidia just displayed. If you think that Nvidia isn't going to drop prices come February...
 

NKD

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
8,869
Sorry man but WHAT? VII is overpriced and under performing. They aren't sacrificing profit, this is a money grab to take advantage of Nvidia's HIGHLY overpriced cards and bad press. You can't have it both ways...

And remember when they drop Nvidia did the typical Nvidia thing and built in a whole lot of wiggle room to move the pricing on the RTX debacle.

Totaly disagree this is where you need to read up around the net more. AMD is losing money on each Radeon 7 from wherever I have read. Its purely a stop gap card to have something competitive out there but they are selling it at a loss even if slightly.

They are not making this is in large quantities. Until second half when 7nm ramps up and will get a lot cheaper. Word is they are only releasing 5k a month for a first few months and you will likely see a price drop mid year when 7nm ramps up. I can assure you that AMD is not doing this for cash grab lol.

Also AMD is not there to make prices cheap for Nvidia. It seems like thats one of the only reason people want amd to make price/performance GPUs so they can buy nvidia cheaper. lol

As I said Radeon 7 is not a money maker for them. At this time that is the minium they can sell it as they are already losing some money on each one from what I read.
 
Last edited:

haste.

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
1,651
Totaly disagree this is where you need to read up around the net more. AMD is losing money on each Radeon 7 from wherever I have read. Its purely a stop gap card to have something competitive out there but they are selling it at a loss even if slightly.

They are not making this is in large quantities. Until second half when 7nm ramps up and will get a lot cheaper. Word is they are only releasing 5k a month for a first few months and you will likely see a price drop mid year when 7nm ramps up. I can assure you that AMD is not doing this for cash grab lol.

Also AMD is not there to make prices cheap for Nvidia. It seems like thats one of the only reason people want amd to make price/performance GPUs so they can buy nvidia cheaper. lol

As I said Radeon 7 is not a money maker for them. At this time that is the minium they can sell it as they are already losing some money on each one from what I read.
What would be the benefit of an organization selling a mediocre product at less than break even? Loss leader? View it from a business perspective and not the media you are choosing to consume.

Canabalize your winner in ryzen? Attempt to look good to the "internet community"? It doesnt make sense. And prophesising that this is a stopgap... well, we've heard that before. AMD needs a win in the GPU segment soon and this wasnt it. It's been a long time since.
 

Ski

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
1,038
aa969b74371519.5c2ddcff3891b.jpg


Both were fake.

And for your final test ladies. And I promise one of them is real, but which one...

thebeals-render-vs-photo-apol-1-90096e1b-bcpp.jpg
 

Attachments

  • Wireframe.jpg
    Wireframe.jpg
    709.8 KB · Views: 0

NKD

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
8,869
What would be the benefit of an organization selling a mediocre product at less than break even? Loss leader? View it from a business perspective and not the media you are choosing to consume.

Canabalize your winner in ryzen? Attempt to look good to the "internet community"? It doesnt make sense. And prophesising that this is a stopgap... well, we've heard that before. AMD needs a win in the GPU segment soon and this wasnt it. It's been a long time since.

They are not selling this for benefit. They are selling this in small quantities as a stop gap product to have something there on high end. For now it’s reported they are not making profit on it.

A company doesn’t always do something for profit. CPUs are the real margins are for AMD. They can afford to take a loss on small quantities of this card. It’s not like they plan to sell a million of these. May be like 20k in first 5 months. They might drop the price as 7nm ramos up and gets cheaper. Which will be in middle of the year.

Mediocre? That’s just your opinion. Not a fact. I am sure plenty of people will be picking it up if they do content creation/game.
 

Ski

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
1,038
apple is fake because it's meant to trick you into thinking it's real because it's a bigger picture...so most people will assume it looks more real even though it's not...2nd pic is real even though it looks fake...

You've been watching too much Columbo.

giphy.gif
 
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
253
I'm on my cell phone but quick initial impression is the one on the right looks like the fake. Hope I'm wrong :)

My impression also. There's something about the shadow blur of the sconces on the brightly lit strip that looks off.

But that said, that is ONLY because there is a reference pic. Whichever one is the fake, it it superbly done.
 

Lakku

n00b
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
21
It's 100% easy to see what level of ray tracing it is, at least between low/medium and high/ultra. Just look at the gun and non watery surface, where low/medium don't put rays onto those objects. The gun is the easiest way to tell.
 

lostin3d

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
2,043
This. As a RTX 2080 ti owner, I never ever expected to fully enjoy RT. And I think most RTX owners with any level of past experience with new tech never expected much as well. I bought the 2080 Ti for it's raw horsepower.

I totally agree. I got mine for sheer brute force of a single GPU for 4k gaming and loving it. I also agree about newer tech and it's expectations, always been that way.
 

TAP

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
236
Pixar has been using ray tracing for years. Bunch of fricking amateurs....
 

Olle P

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
331
... When you had puddles though, pretty much two of them instantly knew there was ray tracing due to the clipping that occurred with it off. ...
I would like to see it done with off and ultra high levels of the various types of AI and then had them pick the best image.
To me the only relevant question would be: Which setting provides the best gaming experience?
Looking at/for specific details just to tell the difference isn't something you do while gaming.

As most have said, you can't just judge on BF. ...
Agreed. The implementation in BF is by no means perfect, and (some) later games will do it better.
However, we can judge BF as such though...

[Right image] There's something about the shadow blur of the sconces on the brightly lit strip that looks off.
To me it's the extremely dark inside of the scones in the left picture, as well as the general blur of that image, that tells me it's more probably a fake.
 

knowom

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
425
I'd rather have vectors than reflections I'm fine with fake lighting/shading I'm not so fine with jaggies.
 

Stanley Pain

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 5, 2001
Messages
2,500
Can anyone temper their hate anymore? Just cause its nvidia doesnt mean that it's not a good thing. Broken as hell right now but give me a first gen technology without flaw. AMD fans should be happy nvidia is crapping the bed this first go around, Su just said they are working on their solution and have a test subject to observe to avoid failure!

We no longer live in a nuanced world. Watch this video where I brutally savage something something.
 

Formula.350

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 30, 2011
Messages
1,102
And for your final test ladies. And I promise one of them is real, but which one...

After dragging the image to its own tab for a slightly bigger view, without question, the LEFT side is real. (or worded as N4CR put it: right side is fake.)

It honestly was a toss up while viewing it in-post though, due to the down-sizing causing some blurring. After seeing it full size though there were a bunch of give-aways as to what made me conclude as I did. Namely, the lighting on the concrete stairs (upper right) and the detail on the underside, as well as pretty much the entirety of the entertainment center and the TV's reflections.

Quality recreation though, no doubt. Nothing I could personally make, I'm just the critic heh
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ski
like this

rgMekanic

[H]ard|News
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
5,764
Sorry man but WHAT? VII is overpriced and under performing. They aren't sacrificing profit, this is a money grab to take advantage of Nvidia's HIGHLY overpriced cards and bad press. You can't have it both ways...

And remember when they drop Nvidia did the typical Nvidia thing and built in a whole lot of wiggle room to move the pricing on the RTX debacle.

You should temper your hate.
 

capt_cope

Gawd
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
946
After dragging the image to its own tab for a slightly bigger view, without question, the LEFT side is real. (or worded as N4CR put it: right side is fake.)

It honestly was a toss up while viewing it in-post though, due to the down-sizing causing some blurring. After seeing it full size though there were a bunch of give-aways as to what made me conclude as I did. Namely, the lighting on the concrete stairs (upper right) and the detail on the underside, as well as pretty much the entirety of the entertainment center and the TV's reflections.

Quality recreation though, no doubt. Nothing I could personally make, I'm just the critic heh
Agreed.
It's an impressive render, but the one on the left is clearly the "real" shot. For me the glaring detail is the dynamic range - there's too much detail in the shot on the right - the underside of the lights shouldn't be that well exposed, and there was too much detail in the wood floor where the brightest sun was hitting. Still, for that resolution I wouldn't be ashamed if I got it wrong - it's a very impressive render.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ski
like this

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
6,670
In BF5 reason no De-noising is done is because all rendering is rasterize. Ray tracing is only finding the what would be seen, reflected rays from the angle of incident - basically angle of incident = angle of reflected light. It is basically finding if any objects from a given view will be visible on the reflected surface. Once it is determine what objects are on a reflective surface, the objects in the reflection is then rasterized like any other surface then mapped to the reflected surface. So BF5 has zero raytrace lighting as far as I can tell. Reason why some do not see much of any difference because there really isn't.
 

Ski

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
1,038
You guys have pretty sophisticated, discerning eyes. I'm actually impressed almost all of you were correct. Because this is too fun, to show you a bit more of my world, this is photogrammetry (photo scanning materials) and the level of detail where it's getting. Not to mention once AI is intelligent enough, my job will soon be automated as well :p.

i1NgX8A.jpg

IgzlJMs.jpg

t6xCZr7.jpg

LZ1op73.jpg
 

Formula.350

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 30, 2011
Messages
1,102
You guys have pretty sophisticated, discerning eyes. I'm actually impressed almost all of you were correct. Because this is too fun, to show you a bit more of my world, this is photogrammetry (photo scanning materials) and the level of detail where it's getting. Not to mention once AI is intelligent enough, my job will soon be automated as well :p.
I suspect it's because we're gamers as well, but I might be mistaken there. I also partially attribute my ability to pick it out due to having dabbled in PShop (my only formal education being a semester in Highschool, which would've been like Photoshop... 3.0? 4.0? Back in 99-01)

As far as the new images go, they're great, but what gives it away to me...
Image 1: The Cantaloupe; the detail and the shadows on the other melons.
Image 2: The Cauliflower; again the detail and shading. Also the carrots a little bit, as they wouldn't be at all glossy unless they had just been washed and scrubbed, where they were still damp. Garden fresh carrots would be very dull though, as they'd likely only be washed with no scrubbing. So even when wet, would be fairly light absorbing.

In honesty, same thing for the Canteloupe, there shouldn't be any reflection, or if so then only on the green 'seams', as the textured part is very rough/porous and not very waxy.
Other than that they're beautifully rendered, and the second one qualifiably crosses the uncanny valley, IMO. :)


THAT being said... If those are both real and are scenes you've scanned (with the grid images being the resulting scan output)... then I'll eat my keyboard! lol
 

Youn

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
5,888
a bit more of my world
You made these images? cool work... I agree most would not notice these are renders if in a magazine or somethin...

What stands out most to me is the noise in the shadow/dark areas... looks like typical unresolved samples there, doesn't help that almost everything is "strangely" out of focus (or maybe the textures are not high res enough?)

the zucchini looks perfect, onions pretty damn close, most everything else needs some work, like the leaf on the eggplant is a bit too waxy looking and some other surfaces are either too shiney/clear or not enough...

maybe playing with subsurface scattering would help, I dunno I'm no expert just a dabbler like Formula.350 :)
 

Ski

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
1,038
I suspect it's because we're gamers as well, but I might be mistaken there. I also partially attribute my ability to pick it out due to having dabbled in PShop (my only formal education being a semester in Highschool, which would've been like Photoshop... 3.0? 4.0? Back in 99-01)

As far as the new images go, they're great, but what gives it away to me...
Image 1: The Cantaloupe; the detail and the shadows on the other melons.
Image 2: The Cauliflower; again the detail and shading. Also the carrots a little bit, as they wouldn't be at all glossy unless they had just been washed and scrubbed, where they were still damp. Garden fresh carrots would be very dull though, as they'd likely only be washed with no scrubbing. So even when wet, would be fairly light absorbing.

In honesty, same thing for the Canteloupe, there shouldn't be any reflection, or if so then only on the green 'seams', as the textured part is very rough/porous and not very waxy.
Other than that they're beautifully rendered, and the second one qualifiably crosses the uncanny valley, IMO. :)


THAT being said... If those are both real and are scenes you've scanned (with the grid images being the resulting scan output)... then I'll eat my keyboard! lol

To elaborate further on why you're tending to notice the imperfections in each image is because in addition to the renders you've already seen you've also been show the wire-frame renders. so because of that your brain is already attuned to uncanny valley whether you notice or not. So naturally your senses become more heightened and biased to scan for anything that seems out of the ordinary. If you were to be in line at the supermarket and see this image in a magazine for the first time, you would automatically assume it was a natural photo. It's very strange and interested how the human brain works because you see this type of phenomenon occur with movies heavy with terrible cgi; once you notice it, it takes away from the immersion of the movie and you can't help but point it out. Not to mention it becomes a distraction. But when it is done correctly, you almost never notice it at all, which is sort of the job of cgi artists in the first place.

Regarding the cantaloupe and the cauliflower, you are correct in regards to the detail of the melons. The artist failed to replicate the bump mapping (rough surfaces) correctly so the light reflects off of it with a more glossy look. Almost like plastic. But with a few more hours of correcting, I'm sure he could have fixed that. But still this is one helluva job and we're only just tapping the surface where cgi is getting at.

Now with all that said, I highly encourage you to watch whatONE individual is capable of doing. In the arch viz industry Alex Roman man is considered a god because of what he was able to accomplish eight years ago and what took two years to accomplish all on his own. This is perhaps one of my top ten favorite YouTube videos of all time because it is a testament to what humanity is able to accomplish when they're given their full potential. Hope you enjoy

The Third and the Seventh

Make sure you watch the first video before watching the Breakdown.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Youn
like this
Top