Can You Detect When Ray Tracing Is Turned On?

[spine]

Well assuming there not both fake, which I think is the correct answer. The apple is more realistic than the sofa's and chests..

There's a couple of reflections on the apple pic that seem off to me.. but hey when was the last time I saw something like that in the sun(UK)...

Bottom one is definitely fake, you can see repeating textures on the drawers on the left.

I could believe the top one is a well staged photo made to look artificial.

 

[Slade]

BF5 is not the greatest example of ray tracing to stake ray tracing technology on. Marketing ego was too big IMHO.

 

[Meeho]

Let me test you ray tracing rookies. Which one is real and which one is fake?

View attachment 135128

View attachment 135129

Both look fake (apple one more so), but it could also just be shitty modern post (over)processing.

 

[Nenu]

Bottom one is definitely fake, you can see repeating textures on the drawers on the left.

Also the flames have very little variation and light emitted from them isnt traced.

 

[Tiburon1186]

As most have said, you can't just judge on BF. Ray tracing is an amazing (though old) tech that developers have spent countless years mimicking with static lights/shadows. They have gotten pretty good at it. It also depends on the source application and how long it allows the rays to trace which can increase the look as well as the processing required (though it does have diminishing returns). This is why it was always faked instead of real ray tracing (the resource usage). I'm intrigued to see what developers do with actual ray tracing but I'm in no way expecting an amazing difference with smooth performance right out of the gate.

 

[Patton187]

This all reminds me of the DX10 hate and FUD during the Far Cry heydays. Where did we end up? That's right, all of those features are now taken for granted.

It's no different to when pixel shading techniques were introduced - few games supported it, the perf hit was substantial unless you had top notch gear. How about tessellation? I don't see anyone pissing their pants about what is essentially the exact same dynamic. How about VR? Yup - the technology and ecosystem are about as mature as a 4chan shitfest and we've had it hyped up and been fed bullshit about it ever since a retard fired up a lawnmower.

Real time Raytracing has forever been the holy grail of graphics. Can we not be thankful that it is finally a reality? It's stupendous, for fuck's sake.

So what if it doesnt deliver 700fps? It will only get better and if the best y'all can do is bitch about framerates then I suggest you put on some 100 factor sunblock and venture outdoors for a change of scenery.

That would be great if not for the price.

 

[lostin3d]

As a 2080TI owner, and someone who's been buying home entertainment tech since 1980 I don't regret it since I didn't buy it for RT, I admit I have a hard time differentiating much except for low and ultra RT in BFV and even then I don't feel that ultra justifies the hit. I've spent a lot of time both benching and then just watching all the eye candy of various games the last few months after upgrading both display and card. I try to make time in playing for 3 things, initial configuring watching metrics with canned benches, real world playing and watching metrics with more tweaking, and finally turning off all monitoring software and just enjoying the visuals. The first two steps usually take weeks/months before I'm happy enough to relax and enjoy some good beer for the 3rd. I find that many games made in the last 3-4 years can provide visuals in 4k that will easily rival the RT in BFV. The million or so mods(reshade etc.) for GTA V have got some impressive reflections but they too come with hits. I'll also add that many AAA games released in the last 14-18 months have reached graphical levels that to me are indistinguishable from current RT in gaming but the sad part is that with or without RT to achieve that quality level of visuals the hits will still happen at 1080p or above. It's just that RT demands too much right now.

It'd be pretty easy to derail this thread as others, and I agree with most of them, have already chimed in with about comparisons of past features, hardware, resolutions, etc. vs prices or how they were implemented. Someone should start a thread along the lines of 'Hey you _____(fill in any new thing), get off my ______(fill in what hurts the most)." or(in old man's cranky voice) "Why in my day we didn't need no fancy _________". All of us cranky people could go there to rip new tech, software, features, prices, etc.

 

[Bankie]

Other things that people sometimes struggle to tell the difference between:

Medium and High and Ultra settings
1080p and 1440p and 4k
30fps and 60fps and 144fps
All of the various AA methods
Onboard audio and discrete audio
Gaming headsets and wired audiophile headsets

 

[DNMock]

Other things that people sometimes struggle to tell the difference between:

Medium and High and Ultra settings
1080p and 1440p and 4k
30fps and 60fps and 144fps
All of the various AA methods
Onboard audio and discrete audio
Gaming headsets and wired audiophile headsets

Wut?

 

[fuzzylogik]

I hear about that a lot. Folks that can't tell the difference between those things lol. When you have a feature that only changes parts of the objects on the screen will only be apparent to those that are really aware of it. If they can't see the difference between 60Hz/120Hz/1444Hz or between 1080p/4k very likely not going to notice if some reflections are 'better' than before.

It's kinda amazing to me though - it wasn't very long ago (uh... weeks? lol) where the new cards were looked at being able to have a proper good 4k experience. That changed quick lol.

 

[GNUse_the_force]

There is more to good graphics than ray tracing. Hows about we see a move towards realistic layered materials with realistic physical properties like cloth, metal and stone as opposed to just a flat 2k texture with some bump mapping applied..

 

[umeng2002]

I still think ray-traced global lighting (ambient occlusion replacement) will be the biggest thing until ray-tracing cards get more powerful.

 

[SvenBent]

Really wished this would have been done with an ABX setup rather than a forced conclusion test method.

But sadly its seems like most "Can you see it?" test from hardware sites are just not done that well

 

[Youn]

I'll get in when PATH Tracing comes out.

A lot of these terms are kinda thrown around but mean the same thing, even between standalone/production 3D renderers... we'll probably get something like V-Ray in games before we get Maxwell or Octane, the former using ray-tracing but not as physically accurate as the other two

There is more to good graphics than ray tracing. Hows about we see a move towards realistic layered materials with realistic physical properties like cloth, metal and stone as opposed to just a flat 2k texture with some bump mapping applied..

We've been doing this for a long time now, it's mostly the lighting that hasn't been upgraded to really show off the materials very well

 

[Youn]

I still think ray-traced global lighting (ambient occlusion replacement) will be the biggest thing until ray-tracing cards get more powerful.

We are already seeing this in the form of light mass/nodes (eh I forget what it's called, but it's a grid of floating omnidirectional lights throughout the space the act as global illumination sources... ahh, I remember, they're called GI probes) works pretty well in realtime... and yea, ambient occlusion kinda sucks

 

[Hornet]

Raytracing have always been the holy grail of real time graphics.
It'll take a lot of computation power, but it have to start somewhere.

I guess people these days take programmable shaders for granted, forgetting how challenging it used to be when it was first implemented.
Raytracing have to go through similar evolution.

It's unrealistic to say it's not important for now until you can have better performance, you'll never get there if you don't start somewhere.
It has always been that way with any major graphics feature.

 

[Meeho]

Other things that people sometimes struggle to tell the difference between:

Medium and High and Ultra settings

High->Ultra maybe, Medium->Ultra probably easy.

1080p and 1440p and 4k

Depends on panel size.

30fps and 60fps and 144fps

Nope.

All of the various AA methods

Depends on which methods.

Onboard audio and discrete audio

Mostly true.

Gaming headsets and wired audiophile headsets

Nope.

 

[DNMock]

There is more to good graphics than ray tracing. Hows about we see a move towards realistic layered materials with realistic physical properties like cloth, metal and stone as opposed to just a flat 2k texture with some bump mapping applied..

Maybe I'm not following you properly here, but it seems like no special hardware changes would be needed, and I can't really see much to gain other than murdering your VRam. All it would be (I think?) would be doing things exactly like normal, wire mesh wrapped in a texture, throw a little bit of alpha onto it, then have another wire mesh just barely smaller inside of it wrapped with it's own texture and so on.

PBR textures do a great job of metal vs cloth vs stone.

Realistic, real-time physics would be the only one that could make a difference, and afaik, the only thing needed to do that right would be enabling some FP 64 double precision on the GPU's.


In my opinion, the area that needs the most work in games would be in enemy A.I. and maybe the ability to generate life-like animations on the fly. Having a heavily populated area where every NPC is randomly generated kind of like Shadows of War did to appearances, but take it a step farther and give them all their own unique animations from how they walk, carry/use a weapon or bag, unpredictable behaviors, etc. etc.

Personally, I think that would be a fantastic use of machine learning and Tensor cores that would provide a ton more than ray tracing while not forcing you to drop your resolution down to 1080p.



TL : DR - use machine learning and tensor type cores for making the worlds more dynamic would go a helluva lot farther than ray tracing imo.

Edit: Won't happen though since marketing can sell a nice shiny turd with realistic reflections better than they can a turd that is malleable and more "alive"

 

[Lith1um]

Let me test you ray tracing rookies. Which one is real and which one is fake?

View attachment 135128

View attachment 135129

Both are fakes.

 

[aldamon]

Can anyone temper their hate anymore? Just cause its nvidia doesnt mean that it's not a good thing. Broken as hell right now but give me a first gen technology without flaw. AMD fans should be happy nvidia is crapping the bed this first go around, Su just said they are working on their solution and have a test subject to observe to avoid failure!

You don't smugly cash grab, and rename an entire product line, for an alpha feature and then cry victim when it backfires. Stop apologizing for them.

If NVIDIA had launched Turing at the same price point of Pascal with expected performance bumps between 60, 70, and 80 lines (instead of botching the lineup when looking at price tags), nobody would have batted an eye except the worst trolls. NVIDIA is getting exactly what they deserve.

 

[ChadD]

Real time ray tracing may one day be a thing. However it would be nice if the companies taking this stuff up would call it what it really is. Path traced light map creation. This is not real time ray tracing. Its simply a more accurate light mapping method.

It may catch on in time... and it has the potential to look amazing when it comes to gmaes where having time to enjoy the eye candy doesn't get in the way of playing the game (in other words games other then FPSs)

It is a technically cool feature... a good consumer use of tensor hardware. But as a wide spread feature for more accurate light mapping this one is going to live or die on the next generation consoles. If they support traced map generation then developers will build around it and find great implementations. If not... they will continue to build alternate 100% rasterized lighting methods that rival the traced method in quality. So ya Nvidias RTX future really depends on AMD and how they implement tensor or tensor type hardware into chips for the PS5 and Xbonetwo

 

[Bankie]

Wut?

I know many people (you probably do to) that think 30fps is plenty smooth and not different enough from 60fps to matter. I know many that think that there's 0 difference between 60fps and 144fps; even some users on [H] have stated they don't notice the difference.

 

[DNMock]

I know many people (you probably do to) that think 30fps is plenty smooth and not different enough from 60fps to matter. I know many that think that there's 0 difference between 60fps and 144fps; even some people on here think that 4k/60 is better than 1440/144.

Sure 30 fps is plenty smooth in a lot of situations, I'm not saying that at all. That said, 30 fps vs 60 fps is glaringly obvious and getting the fps up to or near 60 at least is the first priority for me when adjusting the settings above everything else simply because it's such a dramatic improvement.

I agree that after 60 there is diminishing returns as long as you aren't playing a fast twitch fps or fighting game.

Personally, the line for me is around 80 fps where I can no longer tell. 80 fps vs 120 fps looks the same to me (I don't play any fps type games, so that's a pretty big reason I think).

Edit: The biggest deal on fps I think is if you don't see it, you don't realize it's even a problem. Like my old roommate a while back was a big console guy, and I was always playing on PC. A lot of the time we would both have the same games, and after playing it at 60+ on PC then seeing it at 24 to 30 on console, it would appear to be damn near unplayable. Of course if I only played a game on a console that was also running at 24 to 30 fps it would seem perfectly fine and not seem choppy at all until I picked it up on PC and got used to the higher FPS, then if I went back to the consoles, suddenly that game that was just fine before is now choppy as hell.

 

[Bankie]

Sure 30 fps is plenty smooth in a lot of situations, I'm not saying that at all. That said, 30 fps vs 60 fps is glaringly obvious and getting the fps up to or near 60 at least is the first priority for me when adjusting the settings above everything else simply because it's such a dramatic improvement.

I agree that after 60 there is diminishing returns as long as you aren't playing a fast twitch fps or fighting game.

Personally, the line for me is around 80 fps where I can no longer tell. 80 fps vs 120 fps looks the same to me (I don't play any fps type games, so that's a pretty big reason I think).

Yeah, but you have been previously exposed to it, know *what* to look for, know what your limit is, and likely understand that others may have a higher or lower tolerance when it comes to these things.

I can tell the difference between RTX on and off in BFV immediately in many cases while it might be more difficult in others. It's not much different from articles that [H] has done in the past where they compare graphical settings that force you to zoom in 100x to see how well antialiasing works when you'd likely never even notice if you didn't see it in a side-by-side. If someone doesn't notice RTX in BFV then they likely wouldn't notice shadows, HBAO, AA, either.

 

[DNMock]

Yeah, but you have been previously exposed to it, know *what* to look for, know what your limit is, and likely understand that others may have a higher or lower tolerance when it comes to these things.

I can tell the difference between RTX on and off in BFV immediately in many cases while it might be more difficult in others. It's not much different from articles that [H] has done in the past where they compare graphical settings that force you to zoom in 100x to see how well antialiasing works when you'd likely never even notice if you didn't see it in a side-by-side. If someone doesn't notice RTX in BFV then they likely wouldn't notice shadows, HBAO, AA, either.

Yup, my edit said the exact same thing I think, just a lot less clearly and wordier. 100% agree on the whole previous exposure aspect of it.

 

[PrkChpXprss]

I feel RT will make a large difference for games with environments that are purpose-built in order to evoke feelings or require certain game mechanics (lighting / sneak mechanics and horror genres for example). I don't imagine that fast twitch multiplayer games are going to make a huge difference. Who stops to inspect the shadows on the roses when they're getting covered in a hail of bullets?

 

[Youn]

it would be cool in a system shock kinda game, where you have eye augmentation to zoom in on something like a door handle to see enemies lurking in a neighboring room, and then maybe a laser gun to bounce off that reflection to hit them

 

[SixFootDuo]

As a 2080TI owner, and someone who's been buying home entertainment tech since 1980 I don't regret it since I didn't buy it for RT, I admit I have a hard time differentiating much except for low and ultra RT in BFV and even then I don't feel that ultra justifies the hit. I've spent a lot of time both benching and then just watching all the eye candy of various games the last few months after upgrading both display and card. I try to make time in playing for 3 things, initial configuring watching metrics with canned benches, real world playing and watching metrics with more tweaking, and finally turning off all monitoring software and just enjoying the visuals. The first two steps usually take weeks/months before I'm happy enough to relax and enjoy some good beer for the 3rd. I find that many games made in the last 3-4 years can provide visuals in 4k that will easily rival the RT in BFV. The million or so mods(reshade etc.) for GTA V have got some impressive reflections but they too come with hits. I'll also add that many AAA games released in the last 14-18 months have reached graphical levels that to me are indistinguishable from current RT in gaming but the sad part is that with or without RT to achieve that quality level of visuals the hits will still happen at 1080p or above. It's just that RT demands too much right now.

It'd be pretty easy to derail this thread as others, and I agree with most of them, have already chimed in with about comparisons of past features, hardware, resolutions, etc. vs prices or how they were implemented. Someone should start a thread along the lines of 'Hey you _____(fill in any new thing), get off my ______(fill in what hurts the most)." or(in old man's cranky voice) "Why in my day we didn't need no fancy _________". All of us cranky people could go there to rip new tech, software, features, prices, etc.

This. As a RTX 2080 ti owner, I never ever expected to fully enjoy RT. And I think most RTX owners with any level of past experience with new tech never expected much as well. I bought the 2080 Ti for it's raw horsepower.

 

[Deleted member 94167]

I have a question. If I get a couple of my dumb ass friends and make a youtube video, when does it become news? It must be a really slow day.

 

[raz-0]

When it runs like shit its a good indicator. Especially on the 8gb cards.

It might be harder to detect than you think if the monitor is a g-sync monitor.

 

[Rvenger]

It might be harder to detect than you think if the monitor is a g-sync monitor.

G-Sync does not cure VRAM stutter. If it did then we would all be on 4gb cards still.

 

[Jim Kim]

I have a question. If I get a couple of my dumb ass friends and make a youtube video, when does it become news? It must be a really slow day.

Was it cageymaru, Megalith, Kyle or AlphaAtlas who forced you to watch it. I'm gonna have a talk with those boys before this gets out of hand.

 

[cjcox]

FPS tanks... it's "on"

FPS goes back up... it's "off"

 

[HockeyJon]

I can. If your normally smooth frame rate has turned into a slide show, it’s possible that you have RTX on.

 

[Minutemaid]

Honestly I think if everyone is truly honest with themselves. Yes it looks nice when you sit there and see flashy demos but in games its all about perception. I honestly don't think it would be ground braking for me.

I watched it the other day and it is so true. Even though they could look for it and guess at the end of the day none of them really cared too much for it lol. I think reflections are hard to tell when you are actually paying attention to the gameplay more then the walls.

Once they make RT part of the game play in new games it'll be much more appreciated (mirrors, shadows, bullet holes passing through walls in dark rooms that suddenly light up the way you would expect, etc...).
Also, once the hardware is powerful enough to run full RT it'll be way easier to tell the difference.
It's up to the developers now. Cheers to the green team for getting the ball rolling on the hardware side.

 

[polonyc2]

Let me test you ray tracing rookies. Which one is real and which one is fake?

View attachment 135128

View attachment 135129

apple is fake because it's meant to trick you into thinking it's real because it's a bigger picture...so most people will assume it looks more real even though it's not...2nd pic is real even though it looks fake...

 

[Youn]

2nd pic is real even though it looks fake...

look at the edges of the chair in the foreground... exactly same distortion and wear on the leather, just mirrored...

 

[killroy67]

I don't know how BFV looks with RT on, but in my opinion the graphics pretty much are nothing special whatsoever and that's in 1440p at ultra settings. I have been playing Battlefront 2, and the graphics in those maps is just stunning and make BFV look pretty piss poor. The map mos eisley in particular just blows me away!! They can take RT and their expensive cards and stick it as far as I'm concerned.

 

[craigdt]

id love to see an [H] blind test article on this exact subject...would make good reading for sure

My favorite video of all time was when Kyle had the sleepover or whatever with some of his buddies (or people on here?) and did the blind test of the AMD vs nVidia cards and the interviews after where people told which one they thought looked better, ran better etc.

I don't remember what that was... but it was really neat seeing Kyle and his buds.

 

[haste.]

To be honest I am shocked AMD released the Vega VII but that shows you they care about the gaming market and they are sacrificing profit to do so.

Sorry man but WHAT? VII is overpriced and under performing. They aren't sacrificing profit, this is a money grab to take advantage of Nvidia's HIGHLY overpriced cards and bad press. You can't have it both ways...

And remember when they drop Nvidia did the typical Nvidia thing and built in a whole lot of wiggle room to move the pricing on the RTX debacle.