Can the Wii-Mote level the FPS playing field?

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placeboFx

Limp Gawd
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Jan 20, 2005
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I think my favorite aspect of the wii is the controllers ability to level the FPS playing field. I favor FPS on the pc and hope that for once I can best my friend who's only experience with FPS is on console giving him much more play time with an interface I can't use as well to play FPS. So I am hoping that the point and shoot aspect that wii will provide can help me get some frags. Does anyone else think that Wii and FPS will finally give nintendo some good FPS titles (excluding Metroid of course)? I almost forgot to mention Red Steel but I have some doubts about that game. <=====Begin Flames.........NOW.
 
i think it is a waste of time personally, it cannot be anywhere nearly as responsive and accurate as a mouse and kb
 
The videos make the system seem responsive and a lot of people at e3 are saying good things. I just hate having my ass handed to me every time I play halo2. I can't map my eyes to my thumbs. I know I should just practice more but I love my keyboard and mouse. You know...... if MS really wanted to be inventive they would just let users plug a usb kb and mouse into the 360 and have at it. I know the peripherals work when connected to the box. Hmmmmmm.. Any thoughts?
 
I'm not sure on the exact details of how the Wii's controller functions in FPS games... maybe someone could clear this up for me.

My understanding of it right now is:

1. Controller w/ joystick, thumb on joystick to turn the character left/right and move forwards/backwards
2. Remote in other hand, moves trigger around the screen

Problem with this is that I don't know where the below map out:
1) strafing left/right
2) shifting the character's view (screen) up/down

Can anyone clarify? :confused:
 
deathstar550 said:
Problem with this is that I don't know where the below map out:
1) strafing left/right
2) shifting the character's view (screen) up/down
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Pretty sure moving your view is done by pointing off the screen to where you want to turn which will be the reason the Wiimote still won't be as good as a mouse + keyboard (unfortunately).
 
Impulse2k said:
Pretty sure moving your view is done by pointing off the screen to where you want to turn which will be the reason the Wiimote still won't be as good as a mouse + keyboard (unfortunately).
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Ack. That doesn't sound very natural at all... :eek: I'd rather have the crosshairs locked at the center of the screen (and get a good view around the crosshair), than have the crosshair at the edges of the screen "pulling" the view along.

For the sake of $200 I hope that developers go with the former... :(
 
i really wonder how well i will even be able to use the wii remote considering i live in a studio apartment and would only be around 6 feet away from the tv. Not only is that close but my arm and the controller will cover up part of the screen. Also I whouldn't have much room to swing my arms if i wanted to and multiplayer games would be quite the impossiblility.
 
I just can't see myself holding my arm out at 90 degrees for an extended period of time. After 30 minutes or so it's got to get old. /shrug
 
you dont have to hold the controller straight out, you can hold it just like a normal one. I thought you would have to hold it out too, but I was wathcing the E3 booth stuff and everyone is holding it normal.

deathstar550 said:
For the sake of $200 I hope that developers go with the former...
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judging from red steel and metroid 3, the latter one seems to be the method that most (if not all) developers will be using.
 
Baredor said:
I just can't see myself holding my arm out at 90 degrees for an extended period of time. After 30 minutes or so it's got to get old. /shrug
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among the many other odd/uncomforrtable situations i can think of.....it's gonna be fun for the first hour or two at a party, but when you really want to sit down to play a serious game, give me the old reliable Playstation controller anyday
 
nobody_here said:
among the many other odd/uncomforrtable situations i can think of.....it's gonna be fun for the first hour or two at a party, but when you really want to sit down to play a serious game, give me the old reliable Playstation controller anyday
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For the last time you DONT have to hold it up, or in "other odd/uncomfortable situations", you can hold it in your lap and move it around like a normal controller
 
People have to stop with that disposition that they have to flail for this thing to work... the sensitivity will be adjustable, and you only need to wave around if you WANT to (and you'd better believe it will be fun to do so! lol).

In terms of keyboard+mouse accuracy, the Wii Remote isn't going to be as accurate as the trusty old mouse without a lot of dev work. But it is about a gazillion times better than any gamepad for a shooting game. I'm the type who likes to play my shooters on the PC, and I'm willing to give the Wii a shot because I simply think that the gamepad sucks for shooters, and I've only forced myself to use one when the game is REALLY good (i.e. Metroid, Goldeneye, etc). Yes all console FPS games have auto-aim and large extended hitzones to help console FPS gamers with their accuracy, but I prefer to get my headshots on the actual head, not an inch away on screen.

Anyway, the device has a great deal of potential for shooters. Of course, devs have to work out the best way exactly, still. Currently, Metroid and Red Steel have "aiming zones" (most of the screen) and "turning zones" (the left, right, top and bottom edges) rather than a static reticule the whole way. Matt from IGN describes this effect, and the current state and the future potential of the Wii remote for FPS games here, with pictures, so check that out. He can explain it all better than I can.

Either way, as long as the methodology is perfected, you're going to be far more accurate with this setup than you will with any gamepad, but it doesn't beat out the accuracy of the keyboard and mouse. What it can be, however, is a great "best of both worlds" type setup. With the kb+m, the mouse can aim extremely precisely, but the keyboard just has digital buttons for the rest. With analog control of the character, and if these control schemes are perfected (and they will be), there is a great deal of potential to make this the only console I'd want to play shooters on aside from my PC.
 
Personally, I'm just hoping that some developer will do an fps in a more mouse like fashion. Your character always aims centered in the screen, and the remote turns the entire character. The problem is though, with a mouse you can simply pick it up and put it back down if you need to keep turning one way... I dont know you would solve that for the wiimote.
 
It'll be better in some ways and worse in others. It'll be better in that it will be more intuitive to look, but movement of the actual character will probably seem unnatural. It will be worse in that sensitivity is going to be an issue in some games and getting the right balance between response time and unwanted sensitivity.

xerus` said:
Personally, I'm just hoping that some developer will do an fps in a more mouse like fashion. Your character always aims centered in the screen, and the remote turns the entire character. The problem is though, with a mouse you can simply pick it up and put it back down if you need to keep turning one way... I dont know you would solve that for the wiimote.
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If developers have any logic they'll think to map a Quick-180 button on the controller.
 
They can´t program the wiimote to act like a mouse, because you can lift a mouse from its mousepad when you run out of surface, but you can´t do anything with the wiimote when you get to the end of the "readable" area of the sensor.

It could work if they put some options for mad sensitivity and such, but I doubt they are going to do this for every game, especially because the movement on the screen would be too much.
 
I think it FPS would work best using the lightgun attackment with its anolog stick, then u could attach it to the wiimote and use the directional pad to strafe, the analog stick to look and the light gun to aim on your screen, I think it would be a nice controll scheme.
 
I played Red Steel at E3 and the aiming was just utterly terrible. The sensativity was waaaay out of whack and I could get more headshots with a standard controller... seriously.

I think the 'potential' of the Wiimote is there, but quite honestly... I think that the only few titles we'll see truley bring glory to the Wiimote are a HANDFUL of first party Nintendo titles. I don't expect 3rd party devs to really make it work that well ....
 
theNoid said:
I played Red Steel at E3 and the aiming was just utterly terrible. The sensativity was waaaay out of whack and I could get more headshots with a standard controller... seriously.

I think the 'potential' of the Wiimote is there, but quite honestly... I think that the only few titles we'll see truley bring glory to the Wiimote are a HANDFUL of first party Nintendo titles. I don't expect 3rd party devs to really make it work that well ....
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Until 6-12 months into the whole thing. Think DS - same thing happened. In fact, in the case of Red Steel, since it's one of Ubisoft's most prominent teams I have faith that they just may correct the problems.
 
The Noid has a point I think. As far as I can tell with the DS the only games that actually utilize the stylus are the nintendo official titles.
 
placeboFx said:
As far as I can tell with the DS the only games that actually utilize the stylus are the nintendo official titles.
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Not true, meteos uses the stylus exclusively, and you need both the buttons and the stylus for castlevania.
 
theNoid said:
I played Red Steel at E3 and the aiming was just utterly terrible. The sensativity was waaaay out of whack and I could get more headshots with a standard controller... seriously.

I think the 'potential' of the Wiimote is there, but quite honestly... I think that the only few titles we'll see truley bring glory to the Wiimote are a HANDFUL of first party Nintendo titles. I don't expect 3rd party devs to really make it work that well ....
Click to expand...

Aside from the obvious "the Wiitroller PWNZ" people that have never touched a Wii, everyone that has had hands on says the same thing, they really need to get this thing dialed in before launch.

I try to explain it like this, tape a laser pointer to the bottom of your remote, sit 10ft from your TV and try to hot stuff on the screen...and that is with a LASER pointer.

Also, watch the video, at the 34 second mark when he rolls the controller over in his hand and points at the roof, look at the screen. This helps explain what most of us are trying to say about the Wiimote not being tracked in real 3D space or whatever they are saying...if it did...the character on screen would have pointed up when the Ubisoft rep pointed at the roof.

Anyhow, cool controller with a medium learning curve (reprogram your brain) , needs a lot of fine tuning though.
 
The laser pointer analogy is excellent. I have heard (now this isn't confirmed) that nintendo has struck a deal with pixart to add more functionality in 3d space with their controller hopefully that will address some of the issues that e3 goes have stated are wrong with the wiimote.

I just hope it does what I want it to do. And I hope Capcom builds the next RE game with the wiimote in mind.
 
Steve said:
Aside from the obvious "the Wiitroller PWNZ" people that have never touched a Wii, everyone that has had hands on says the same thing, they really need to get this thing dialed in before launch.

I try to explain it like this, tape a laser pointer to the bottom of your remote, sit 10ft from your TV and try to hot stuff on the screen...and that is with a LASER pointer.

Also, watch the video, at the 34 second mark when he rolls the controller over in his hand and points at the roof, look at the screen. This helps explain what most of us are trying to say about the Wiimote not being tracked in real 3D space or whatever they are saying...if it did...the character on screen would have pointed up when the Ubisoft rep pointed at the roof.

Anyhow, cool controller with a medium learning curve (reprogram your brain) , needs a lot of fine tuning though.
Click to expand...

Agreed, everything I have read about red steel says the controlling is awful. The aiming is bad, turning is worse, and if believable the sword combat gets even lower marks. Although I have heard slightly better things from people who have tried out metroid, so there is room for improvement.

Frankly I dont think it will be any easier adjusting to the wii controls for FPS than it is for a gamepad. And I also dont think it will be any more accurate than a gamepad either. When Shadowrun comes out we can see once and for all if the KBM is really that much better than a gamepad. I think that there will be many people on the 360 who can be very competitive against computer players.

I will believe the wii-mote hype when I see something that actually lives up to it. Right now everything seems to be recognizing gestures and not actually tracking the the controller. Gestures are all right, but its not quite the revolution that some have been waiting for.
 
Can it level the field? Maybe.
Does it matter to me? No, I'm not really into what FPS games currently offer.
 
Erasmus354 said:
When Shadowrun comes out we can see once and for all if the KBM is really that much better than a gamepad. I think that there will be many people on the 360 who can be very competitive against computer players.

I will believe the wii-mote hype when I see something that actually lives up to it. Right now everything seems to be recognizing gestures and not actually tracking the the controller. Gestures are all right, but its not quite the revolution that some have been waiting for.
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Didn't we finish with the 3D space thing in another thread? I'll just ignore it, plain and simple. What I will comment on is the whole gamepad vs KB+M argument. While I've used Gamepads for tons of first person games (and don't like it, but can still do it) it can't and won't ever be as accurate as a kb+m. Hell, the Wiimote probably will never be as accurate as a trusty old mouse, even as devs perfect the technique over time (and they will). The reason devs like FASA can get away with advertising "XBox vs PC - who wins?" is because all first-person gamepad games have huge hitzones (i.e. shoot somebody a metre from the head in the game, and like a magic loogey it hits their head) and lots of auto-aim assistance coded into the underlying engines. If those were removed, there would be a lot less people enjoying shooters on consoles. I don't think the Wiimote would succeed the keyboard+mouse, but it will most certainly be better than dual-analog, when the initial technological hurdles are crossed.
 
nobody_here said:
i think it is a waste of time personally, it cannot be anywhere nearly as responsive and accurate as a mouse and kb
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Why cant it?

to me it would be as responsive as a wireless keyboard or mouse, since it uses a sensor above your tv or somewhere to capture a signal.....
 
Luke_Skywalker said:
i really wonder how well i will even be able to use the wii remote considering i live in a studio apartment and would only be around 6 feet away from the tv. Not only is that close but my arm and the controller will cover up part of the screen. Also I whouldn't have much room to swing my arms if i wanted to and multiplayer games would be quite the impossiblility.
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I dont belive you HAVE to use the motion for all games, you can use a classic remote, but also you , i have heard, can turn up and down the sensitivity of the device so you can take large HUGE motions, or smaller sensitive ones.
 
steviep said:
Didn't we finish with the 3D space thing in another thread? I'll just ignore it, plain and simple. What I will comment on is the whole gamepad vs KB+M argument. While I've used Gamepads for tons of first person games (and don't like it, but can still do it) it can't and won't ever be as accurate as a kb+m. Hell, the Wiimote probably will never be as accurate as a trusty old mouse, even as devs perfect the technique over time (and they will). The reason devs like FASA can get away with advertising "XBox vs PC - who wins?" is because all first-person gamepad games have huge hitzones (i.e. shoot somebody a metre from the head in the game, and like a magic loogey it hits their head) and lots of auto-aim assistance coded into the underlying engines. If those were removed, there would be a lot less people enjoying shooters on consoles. I don't think the Wiimote would succeed the keyboard+mouse, but it will most certainly be better than dual-analog, when the initial technological hurdles are crossed.
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Dual analog is just as easy to use as the Wii mote will be. The Wiimote has the problem that to use it requires not just coordination of your thumbs, but you have to have precise muscle control over your entire arm, and you have to move one arm separately of the other arm and hand. With a controller you ignore your arms, all you think about is moving your thumbs which is relatively little to do. With the Wiimote you are going to have to keep control over your thumbs to press buttons on the wiimote and move the analog stick on the nunchaku, then you need to have control over your arms as well to tilt the nunchaku attachment or point and shoot the wiimote. If you think it is hard to be coordinated with dual analog sticks there is a whole other level with the wiimote. From a purely physiological standpoint there is a whole lot more to coordinate with the Wiimote control scheme than with a gamepad.

Now for people who become very practiced, if the game can be programmed correctly, and IF the technology even has the capability to be accurate enough the wiimote *could* provide better control than a gamepad. That is still yet to be seen though.


Now your probably going to use the argument that it is more natural, so even though there is more to do it will be more intuitive so that will outweigh it. For some people this very well may be true. However for others it may not be. Some people have no trouble coordinating their characters movements with dual analog sticks. A good example of this is when my friends play marble blast ultra or geometry wars. Some people instinctively have a feel for how to manipulate the camera while at the same time directing their marble. This takes good coordination with the dual analog sticks. I do it by second nature, some people will move the camera as little as possible, and only when standing still. Some people just dont get dual analog sticks, some people already use them like second nature.

So the Wiimote may be more intuitive for some, but for others it could only be equally as intuitive because a gamepad is already fully second nature for us.


Bottom Line : The Wiimote is not a better way of controlling FPS games, it is a different way of controlling FPS games which for some will be better, and others will be worse.
 
Oh you're right. People will have to re-learn how to control. But the same thing happened when Nintendo brought out the d-pad. The same thing happened when Mario 64 introduced most of us to an analog stick (that skill didn't come instantaneously). The same thing is going to happen with the Wiimote - is that a bad thing, that we have to learn a new method of control? Especially one that is capable of so much more than a gamepad is? Hell, even Miyamoto recently alluded to it, and said "we've found that people who don't normally play games are able to pick it up and understand it and use it very quickly, but people who have been playing games for a long time have a little bit more of a learning curve, because they have to relearn."

I'm not dissing dual-analog as a method of control, because clearly it works. But even the most experienced with an aim-assited dual-analog pad should be able to admit how much more accurate a mouse is. I think as developers perfect this whole new method of control, we will find that the Wiimote is capable of far more accuracy than a dual-analog, however. That said, I'm still quite skeptical that anything can be as accurate as a mouse for first person games.
 
steviep said:
Oh you're right. People will have to re-learn how to control. But the same thing happened when Nintendo brought out the d-pad. The same thing happened when Mario 64 introduced most of us to an analog stick (that skill didn't come instantaneously). The same thing is going to happen with the Wiimote - is that a bad thing, that we have to learn a new method of control? Especially one that is capable of so much more than a gamepad is? Hell, even Miyamoto recently alluded to it, and said "we've found that people who don't normally play games are able to pick it up and understand it and use it very quickly, but people who have been playing games for a long time have a little bit more of a learning curve, because they have to relearn."

I'm not dissing dual-analog as a method of control, because clearly it works. But even the most experienced with an aim-assited dual-analog pad should be able to admit how much more accurate a mouse is. I think as developers perfect this whole new method of control, we will find that the Wiimote is capable of far more accuracy than a dual-analog, however. That said, I'm still quite skeptical that anything can be as accurate as a mouse for first person games.
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Have you even tried what Steve suggested with the laser pointer. I think you will find that most people are far from accurate when sitting on their couch. There will be just as much aim assisting needed for the wiimote as there is for a dual analog. Pin point control with essentially a light gun is incredibly difficult. Very few people make it very far on arcade shooters without a lot of quarters, and they are probably 3 times closer to the screen. So I doubt for most people the wiimote will inately be more accurate than dual analog controls.
 
It's not the same as a laser pointer, as Steve suggested. 2 IR LED's on the sensor + 1 IR LED on the remote = triangulation. A single laser pointer is essentially a light, which changes in shape and size as it is moved, and can't be erroneously compared to this particular tech. According to IGN and developers, there is no autoaim on any of the first person games (Red Steel, Metroid) so unlike the gamepad I don't expect it to be anywhere near as widely adopted. And because auto-aim won't be so prevailent, you simply have to get used to it just as you did every other control scheme in history. That, and the developers clearly still have some tweaking to do.
 
Both of these are way off topic but....

I just read a report stating that halogen light will confuse the IR sensor in the wii-mote wii-ciever. Good thing I just installed track lighting. I new I should have found LED lights.

My other concern is how it will play on front projection tvs.
 
I'm kinda excited for the Wii. I probably won't be purchasing a 360 ora ps3, but the wii is tempting.
This will be a console to get the gamers up and off our butts
 
I have a 360 and love it, though it is buggy. The ps3 is way too expensive for my blood though I will buy a few to ransom to parents dumb enough to buy them. Wii looks like a lot of fun. As long as it is half as fun as my DS I will be satisfied.
 
Read that IGN link Stevie. Very interesting discussion. A lot of the brainstorming was about about how to look rather than point in Metroid. ie Centre box in which Wiimote works as a pointer and moving the cursor outside the box to the edge of the screen Top/bottom/left/right makes the in game character look up,down,turn left/right. People pointed out various problems with this scheme and suggested solutions such as hold buttons etc I won't go into the details but as each suggestion for various forseeable problems came in, I was like yeah, that would work, lets hope the developers are listening, only for the next person to brainstorm it and come up with potential problems with the new idea. I'd then say to myself DOH, Yep he's right, never thought of that. Then another person would refine the idea, other people would pick a few holes in it etc etc etc

Anyway, someone flippantly mentioned needing 2 wiimotes but didn't develop the idea. Got me thinking though! Obviously 2 wiimotes is out because you still need the nunchuck for forward,back and strafe. Big problem unless you are a gibbon and you can use your feet as extra hands! :D

So what have we got. Nunchuck for Forward, back, strafe - Check and 'reasonably naturalistic.

Wiimote for aiming around visible screen area - Check and Very naturalistic (like aiming a gun which is what you are supposed to be doing ingame anyway.)

Looking around, Up/down in the Gameworld - ?? Gestures/Centre boxes/wiimote button combo's. Hardly naturalistic are they? Where does the two wiimotes come into it?

A headset/Spectacles with wiimote sensors which track where abouts onscreen your head/eyes are looking. ie you can aim with the wiimote independently of where you are looking onscreen. Is Wouldn't that not be the same as the Centrebox and having to look to the edges of the screen to move your view in that direction? Well yes. But all the various problems that people pointed out with this over at the IGN discussion ie following target running off screen and needing a button to hold view,recentre view, over compensating and turning too far, still needing auto aim/look to lock the view onto the new re-aquired target etc etc all solved in a naturalistic way with a headset/spectacles. Yes you look at the edge of the screen outside the 'centre box' to turn the view...but....once the view has rotated to bring the game character that ran off screen back into view, your head/eyes/headset is naturally going to be drawn back from the edge of the screen to the character you were following once he re-appears in your view.
IMHO this would be almost totally naturalistic and the only break with reality being obviously that you don't turn your head 90 degrees to the left to look 90 degrees to your left, you just 'Look' at the left edge of the screen until the baddie is back in view.

OK Start blowing holes in the idea. I'm sure I'm missing some obvious flaw as its late and my brain is half asleep.........course that is if anyone can discipher my 3 am (local) ramblings!
 
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