Can someone with vista SP1 and the 3870x2 compare their results with [H]'s

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larryjoe

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Can someone confirm the performance increase by comparing their numbers with [H]'s earlier review of the 3870x2
 
It is impossible to try and compare to [H]'s as they use Fraps and run around maps, which makes it impossible to re-produce.
 
Yes and only they know in which place it was taken so noone can check those results.
 
So the question is...why do so many folks put stock in something that can't be tested or compared to?
Its like a Scientist Discussing his Theory stating that it is fact but not sharing the information on how they came up with the theory so no one could challenge or validate it!

I never understood why so many folks jump up and down and cowtow to an Evaluation system that is based on Feelings!
 
ReubenRosa said:
So the question is...why do so many folks put stock in something that can't be tested or compared to?
Its like a Scientist Discussing his Theory stating that it is fact but not sharing the information on how they came up with the theory so no one could challenge or validate it!

I never understood why so many folks jump up and down and cowtow to an Evaluation system that is based on Feelings!
Click to expand...

[H] *does* tell you how they achieved their results, and in much greater detail and clarity than other canned sites do. Regardless, the entire point is that canned benchmarks get wrong results. I'd rather have slightly less reproduce-able results that mimic what I'll get when the card arrives than perfectly reproduce-able results that don't mean shit. And feelings don't factor into the [H] review, so I'm not sure where that statement is coming from...
 
They base their reviews on their feelings on how certain cards handle certain games in Certain resolutions On Screens that the grand majority don't have.

How many people have and are using 30inch Screens that can actually take full advantage of the cards available that they Say are the best in the business? Example right now one of the best 30inch lcds on the market is from Gateway its valued at 1200 dollars. How many people actually have the finances to spend the money and get the Right everything to experience what they experience?
They base their advise on their experience running only a few games at certain resolutions.
I wonder if a poll was taken of the average Hardocp reader how many actually have the specs to match what hardocp reviews on? They say their results are true to what the end-user is going to experience. But the reality as it was shown in an infamous poll done by Valve not everyone is using High end Systems for everything.

I mean if you were reviewing games at 1280x1024 with all the settings on high With different cpu's with different gpu's the result's would be vastly different. I myself learned how much of a lack of difference going from a 3870 to an 8800gt is Even with the same cpu. But how many people read these reviews see this incredible frames with systems that don't even come close to what they use.

It always amused me how it used to be the idea of a 3dcard was designed to offload work from a CPU to allow folks to handle games period. Now instead you have to select an uber CPU with an UBER GPU but if you don't your setup isn't recommended here. Yet the actual reality for those with half a brain is that you don't need a 4k setup to enjoy 99% of the games on the market at +70 fps at a high res with all the trippings. Yet if you believe whats said here that 1% is what you need to focus on.
 
Is it? the question is about the issue that no one can Test the performance of the Ati 3870 x2 with SP1 in comparison to Hardocp because they can't replicate their testing "PROCESS". Instead we have to take it as gospel from hardocp. You tell me were I was off topic?
 
Unless you have come up with a solution for HardOCP to "fix" its reviews, your criticisms have no merit. Yes, it might be hard to replicate *exactly* their testing procedures. But at the same time, they are reviewing high-end equipment here which tends to go with other high-end equipment. Not giving us a proper playtest and giving canned benchmarks like a lot of other sites do would be a disservice.

Besides, in case you didn't notice, this is primarily a computer enthusiasts' forum. You wouldn't complain about reviews which deal with extremely expensive models on model building enthusiasts' sites, so why complain here?
 
I agree H's reviews are by far the best on the net. Even when they tell you what they think is the best playable resolutions they still show you the fps results. I would like to see a pre SP1 and a post SP1 video roundup. Most of us dont have access to the vast equipment H does, so it would be cool to see.
 
ReubenRosa said:
How many people have and are using 30inch Screens that can actually take full advantage of the cards available that they Say are the best in the business? Example right now one of the best 30inch lcds on the market is from Gateway its valued at 1200 dollars. How many people actually have the finances to spend the money and get the Right everything to experience what they experience?
They base their advise on their experience running only a few games at certain resolutions.
I wonder if a poll was taken of the average Hardocp reader how many actually have the specs to match what hardocp reviews on? They say their results are true to what the end-user is going to experience. But the reality as it was shown in an infamous poll done by Valve not everyone is using High end Systems for everything.
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A $1200 monitor to be paired with $800+ in video cards (2x3870X2s) - what is your problem with it again? Its not common? No shit, neither is the 3870X2 to begin with. The same people who spend $400-600 on a single VIDEO CARD are definitely not going to baulk at spending $700-1200 on a monitor. Besides, even at 1920x1200 there are still noticeable gains to be had over a single 8800GTS/3870 when moving to a dual-GPU setup.

That, and I have a 15.4in screen that is 1920x1200, so resolution doesn't dictate size and your whole point of it being an expensive 30in monitor is invalid to begin with.

It always amused me how it used to be the idea of a 3dcard was designed to offload work from a CPU to allow folks to handle games period. Now instead you have to select an uber CPU with an UBER GPU but if you don't your setup isn't recommended here. Yet the actual reality for those with half a brain is that you don't need a 4k setup to enjoy 99% of the games on the market at +70 fps at a high res with all the trippings. Yet if you believe whats said here that 1% is what you need to focus on.
Click to expand...

Of course, if you took a poll of people who run water cooling or overclock around here, it will be significantly higher than the average. This site is *not* the average, and it doesn't cater to the average. If you want to be average, go somewhere else - this ain't your place. This site *is* that 1% of people who want all out performance. Also, CPU scaling articles have been done - you don't need anything more than, say, a 3ghz X2 or 2.6ghz C2D to max out top of the line cards - both of which are dirt cheap. 8800GTS 512 + P35 mobo + E6750 == a kick ass setup for $500. What is this crap you are babbling about needing a 4k setup?
 
Casual hardcore. Not everyone here I guarantee is running everything the best of the best.
Its like a market and some games Miss that market. So basically its either Only total hardcore with deep pockets.. Or you ignore the rest of everyone else. I have a 24 inch Lcd. A e8400 wolfdale, 2gig ram. and a 3870. IF I wanted to I could go with a 3870x2 and thats not an 800 dollar proposition thats a 440 dollar one. Its not as black and white as you make it out to be. Plenty of grey out their.. heck alot more grey then you make it out to be those folks get ignored.
 
ReubenRosa said:
Casual hardcore. Not everyone here I guarantee is running everything the best of the best.
Its like a market and some games Miss that market. So basically its either Only total hardcore with deep pockets.. Or you ignore the rest of everyone else. I have a 24 inch Lcd. A e8400 wolfdale, 2gig ram. and a 3870. IF I wanted to I could go with a 3870x2 and thats not an 800 dollar proposition thats a 440 dollar one. Its not as black and white as you make it out to be. Plenty of grey out their.. heck alot more grey then you make it out to be those folks get ignored.
Click to expand...

So what's your solution, then? [H] runs a set of tests of new hardware with a bunch of processors from Core 2 Duo down to Celeron? Test it with 256MB of system ram? There really is no solution to the problem you're raising here.
 
There has to be a logical common ground because I said its great to show off hardware and systems that 95% of the folks here don't have. Its nice to look at it and Say to yourself .. "I wish."

But wishing doesn't equal reality of what people encounter on a day to day basis. I work with the casual gamer its part of my job. It doesn't help that market if they are not shown logical options. You know how many people buy a stock build from a company like Acer,Hp,Gateway,Or Dell. then Later on find out that their System has an excellent processor,ram and hard drive but if they want their son Johnny to enjoy that new game they need a new power supply and video card. Folks don't mind spending the money in those situations but do you think They are going to be running a 30 inch lcd? Nope they have a 22 inch or 24 AT the MOST..... so does a 9800gx2 stuck in an amd AM2 6000 make sense? Or does it make better sense to show them what their experience with an 8800gt or 3870 will handle that game at a perfect res for their monitor and the frames will be at this...... or that.
Yet No damn website I have seen does this. I don't find any websites that actually step up and say you know what I am tired of hearing about gloom and doom about pc gaming .. in fact lets Show everyone what the reality is and how little it really costs to take that average 600 dollar pc and actually make it into a nice Gaming machine. Instead Everyone says the same thing.. WE show off these ULTRA rigs because we don' want to .. slow down the 3dcards.. well guess what pal.. 95% of your potential readership doesn't use those ultra rigs. or have access to them.

So those Reviews are pretty damn worthless.
 
ReubenRosa said:
There has to be a logical common ground because I said its great to show off hardware and systems that 95% of the folks here don't have. Its nice to look at it and Say to yourself .. "I wish."

But wishing doesn't equal reality of what people encounter on a day to day basis. I work with the casual gamer its part of my job. It doesn't help that market if they are not shown logical options. You know how many people buy a stock build from a company like Acer,Hp,Gateway,Or Dell. then Later on find out that their System has an excellent processor,ram and hard drive but if they want their son Johnny to enjoy that new game they need a new power supply and video card. Folks don't mind spending the money in those situations but do you think They are going to be running a 30 inch lcd? Nope they have a 22 inch or 24 AT the MOST..... so does a 9800gx2 stuck in an amd AM2 6000 make sense? Or does it make better sense to show them what their experience with an 8800gt or 3870 will handle that game at a perfect res for their monitor and the frames will be at this...... or that.
Yet No damn website I have seen does this. I don't find any websites that actually step up and say you know what I am tired of hearing about gloom and doom about pc gaming .. in fact lets Show everyone what the reality is and how little it really costs to take that average 600 dollar pc and actually make it into a nice Gaming machine. Instead Everyone says the same thing.. WE show off these ULTRA rigs because we don' want to .. slow down the 3dcards.. well guess what pal.. 95% of your potential readership doesn't use those ultra rigs. or have access to them.

So those Reviews are pretty damn worthless.
Click to expand...

I thought [H] was all about going over the bleeding edge? I don't know about you, but when I research something, I want to know it's theoretical limits, whether practical or not, because that's the way I am. That's the way [H] is, has always been, and I hope continues to be. Sure, I don't own a 30 inch monitor, or the top end card. But hell i want to! Not always the best solution to "cater to the masses"
 
ReubenRosa said:
So the question is...why do so many folks put stock in something that can't be tested or compared to?
Its like a Scientist Discussing his Theory stating that it is fact but not sharing the information on how they came up with the theory so no one could challenge or validate it!

I never understood why so many folks jump up and down and cowtow to an Evaluation system that is based on Feelings!
Click to expand...

Stop blowing it out of proportion like everyone always does. Its reproducable but not with a click of a button. You have to know the paths and techniques used through the evaluation and have the accuracy to pull it off yourself. If you were there taking notes and memorized the evaluation process you would easily be able to reproduce the results for yourself.
 
ReubenRosa said:
They base their reviews on their feelings on how certain cards handle certain games in Certain resolutions On Screens that the grand majority don't have.

How many people have and are using 30inch Screens that can actually take full advantage of the cards available that they Say are the best in the business? Example right now one of the best 30inch lcds on the market is from Gateway its valued at 1200 dollars. How many people actually have the finances to spend the money and get the Right everything to experience what they experience?
They base their advise on their experience running only a few games at certain resolutions.
I wonder if a poll was taken of the average Hardocp reader how many actually have the specs to match what hardocp reviews on? They say their results are true to what the end-user is going to experience. But the reality as it was shown in an infamous poll done by Valve not everyone is using High end Systems for everything.

I mean if you were reviewing games at 1280x1024 with all the settings on high With different cpu's with different gpu's the result's would be vastly different. I myself learned how much of a lack of difference going from a 3870 to an 8800gt is Even with the same cpu. But how many people read these reviews see this incredible frames with systems that don't even come close to what they use.

It always amused me how it used to be the idea of a 3dcard was designed to offload work from a CPU to allow folks to handle games period. Now instead you have to select an uber CPU with an UBER GPU but if you don't your setup isn't recommended here. Yet the actual reality for those with half a brain is that you don't need a 4k setup to enjoy 99% of the games on the market at +70 fps at a high res with all the trippings. Yet if you believe whats said here that 1% is what you need to focus on.
Click to expand...

The evaluations I've seen mostly used either 1600x1200 or 1920x1200 widescreen. Mainly because that's what high end video cards are aimed to utilize, So what if some people play at 1280x1024. If they wanted to be fair, they'd have to run evaluations at 800x600 too. Again, since its not so easy as a 1-click solution, the most fitting resolutions are used. If you buy a top notch video card only to run it at 1280x1024 or 800x600, you're probably under-utilizing it (with a few exceptions like Crysis).

[H] has done evalutations with "low end" video cards in the past but stopped doing them due to lack of interest. Look through the site for the articles yourself. Lower end cards tend to be aimed for lower settings/resolutions. High end cards are aimed for something better.

Overall value is what's being determined in [H] evaluations at a given demographic, not the "best" of this or that.

EDIT: Ah shit this thread has derailed. Sorry about that, but it does bring up the point that [H] evalutations can not be "reproduced" unless you learn the evaluation process for yourself.
 
They have done tests of the 9600 gt.. a Midrange card that has performance close to the prior Generation of High end cards. Same for other cards they don't just Test high end only products.
I would love ot see them do tests of these cards with Cheap.. but fast cpus. Like the Wolfdale producers or Amd Phenoms.. it would show people options. And Also it be nice because if Folks are seeing performance issues that Hardocp isn't it would also allow folks to.. then Compare and see ok wait a sec I have the same exact setup but I am getting this or not. instead as you just said.. ITS not reproducible so how helpful is that too the readers of hardocp? Plus hardocp has Stuck their kneck out as being A leader in the hardware review industry.. So if Kyle and the rest feel they are Better then the rest... why not show it.. and Prove it.
 
My understanding is that they run the tests they run with the processor they do to show what the video card is capable of. The processor won't be a bottleneck. If you have a slower processor, yes your results may be different. Why don't they have 12 different systems and run all of the tests they do and then, 6 months after the card is released, everyone will know where the card stands. Oh wait, no one is interested in that card anymore. I don't think Kyle and company would be in business too long. I would assume nVidia and ATI want reviews the day their products are released. I realize that's an exaggeration, but there is some truth to it.

There is no way to make everyone reading their site happy, so they make the compromises they can and do what they feel is the best way to do things. I feel that I can get a good idea of what various video cards are capable of by reading their site. I should be able to figure out how it will run on my E6600 system. Since my processor shouldn't be a bottleneck, I should be able to play the game with the same settings they use. Their reviews are useful to me as a resource if I'm looking for a new video card.
 
Your correct its great for you.. but how many people have that processor and read their reviews? IF you really had a poll done of their readership and its quite large based on their forum activity I guarantee thats not the grand majority of their readers!
 
Do a poll then. You may be right, you may be wrong. Right now, you're just making assumptions and speculating. I have absolutely no idea one way or the other.
 
I am my ideas are based on experience from dealing with the gaming public. You would be suprised at how many Don't have the absolute latest everything. Because they don't have the knowledge or are given the proper information when it relates to their personal pcs. How many friends/family do you have that have a system that with one or 2 components could be turned into a good gaming machine? I bet alot.
Thats the problem with this industry and hardocp just perpetuates the same issues. And they are not just to blame there is a huge gap of folks who are ignored or not educated and they miss out. I am talking about stepping up and helping increase their readership and actually taking a stand as a leader instead of following every review site out there and doing the same old thing.
 
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