Camelot Unchained - New MMO Kickstarter Project

Discussion in 'PC Gaming & Hardware' started by EPOQ, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. EPOQ

    EPOQ [H]ard|Gawd

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  2. Skott

    Skott 2[H]4U

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    If they can capture the RvR of DAoC's heyday then it may have a chance. I wouldn't bet on MJ though. The guy usually ruins games he creates.
     
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  3. socK

    socK 2[H]4U

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    Not sure I like their respec principles.

    Oh cool I learned all the intricacies of the class / game some 50 hours later and as it turns out I was a fucking idiot the first time around and I'm simply inferior because of it.
     
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  4. Sycraft

    Sycraft [H]ardness Supreme

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    Ya that was a big problem I had with DAoC. I made mistakes that I couldn't undo until way later when I finally got a free respec, and it was a bitch to level my class since I was a healer with little to no offensive ability, and of course nobody wants to group.

    To me no respecs seems like one of those faux "hardcore" things that some devs/players think makes a game better but really just makes it frustrating.

    I'd be completely ok with something that made it slow to respec with regards to PvP. Like you can only respec in your capital city, and once you respec you can't do RvR for an hour or something. That way if the concern is people quickly changing specs in response to what it going on, it won't happen. However I need the ability to not only fix problems with my spec, but also to change to a different spec for different things.

    I play healybots, which anyone will tell you are important to PvP. However you can't level with that at any reasonable rate. You have to go DPS because people just don't like grouping unless they see a direct benefit for them.

    No of course they say no PvE... but I'm skeptical.
     
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  5. EPOQ

    EPOQ [H]ard|Gawd

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    It may make it frustrating but it weighs more when your actions MEAN something in the game. Also, you might be a *LITTLE* gimped but you aren't going to be completely borked unless you are just bad at MMO's and completely screw your character up. I haven't rolled a bad character since my first EQ character back in 99 that I allocated their stat points wrong because I had no idea what I was doing.

    In terms of leveling as a healer, well, it's completely RvR. It's not like you have to go out in the wilderness and do quests and kill mobs alone by yourself all day to level. You'll be grinding out with other players through what Mark is calling "forced social interaction" -- which I think is a GREAT thing. Force players to utilize eachother, it's what made games like Everquest great. Half the classes in the game couldn't solo a mob, it requires using the MULTIPLAYER aspect of the game. Too many MMO's have lost sight of this trying to make kiddy themepark games that appeal to the masses of casual players who really want a single player game with the ability to do group dungeon play now and again. That's not an MMO.

    My personal favorite type of class is a support class. EQ Shaman were my all time favorite class. A jack of all trades. You can heal a little, throw some decent buffs, wear chainmail so you can take a few hits. Not the best at any of these things, but it gives you utility and a ton of combat versatility. I hope that CU will have roles such as this. He said he liked the idea of hybrid roles in GW2 but they were TOO much, and I agree. Being able to play any class and heal/tank/dps as well as any other class takes away from the overall experience. I have yet to play a game since EQ where I felt a true attachment to my character. A game needs to be challenging, frustrating, and rewarding to feel that attachment. Knowing that you aren't next to invincible really changes the way you make decisions in the game.

    In terms of having no PvE, I like the idea and his reasons for it. Without the PvE content to generate, he has much less overhead in terms of development costs. He can have his developers working on adding new classes, skills, assets, etc. without having to worry about generating quests, mob AI, storylines, and all the stuff the comes along with a PvE game. Think of Warhammer. RvR was where it was at. The PvE content (to me at least) was just filler. But since it was a big part of the game, so much more development cost went to that, versus what they could have done (throw it all into RvR). I would wager that the game would have lasted much longer were it purely RvR without all of the PvE fluff. PvE content is great, but lets be honest....you play through it, and then you are done. Then you wait for them to roll out the next expansions worth of content, rinse and repeat. RvR, you jump in, you build, you fight, you die, you play til you are frustrated, then you quit for a while and come back. Things are different the next time you come back. In this type of game, you may build a structure, then come back later and that structure has been taken over by another faction, or worse, burned to the ground. This is the type of game that could keep you coming back over and over again. I want a game that I can play off and on for years. Not a themepark that I "beat" all of the PvE content, run all the raids a few time, and then go play something else for 3-6 months until they launch some new content.

    Another note he mentioned was having to stand still during cast times and abilities. I am in huge support of this. Spamming abilities while running and jumping in circles is not skill. Knowing that you are going to be locked in place once you begin casting a spell makes you THINK about that action before you perform it. Consequences make for a more intellectually challenging game. I want to play a game like this that does not appeal to the masses, simply because it will weed out the weaker players. Casual players, and those who lack the capacity to deal with the potential frustration and challenges, will not have the best time in a game like this.

    I think Mark has a good shot at making a game where the backers of his Kickstarter will get some input into how the final game comes out. I applaud him for making the game the way he wants it, without having to answer to investors and a parent company. He can take the time that is needed to launch a fully baked product, and also talk amongst the future player community to bounce ideas off of them.

    Needless to say, I'm pretty excited about this game. I'd say the only MMO I'm potentially more excited about is EQ Next, just because of it being an Everquest title. But Mark has a good vision, I just hope he can do what he wants with the game and make it successful. I will definitely be donating to the Kickstarter come March. Hopefully many others will, as well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
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  6. SilverSliver

    SilverSliver [H]ardForum Junkie

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    They have said ZERO about the netcode. How they are going to handle large battles and maintain framerates, model clipping and general smoothness. Everything else sounds great. However, if they fuck up the netcode it's not going to be worth playing.
     
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  7. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger 3.5GB GTX 970 Slayer

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  8. EPOQ

    EPOQ [H]ard|Gawd

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    Glad to see you are just as excited as I am, GT!
     
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  9. SilverSliver

    SilverSliver [H]ardForum Junkie

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  10. lilbabycat

    lilbabycat 2[H]4U

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    Sigh..it had so much potential...so much. I was on the same realm as the first to reach RR80, who got it by capping flags all day and doing no actual RvR.
     
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  11. SilverSliver

    SilverSliver [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It had a ton of potential. I'm just way jaded. Simply because it has his name on it, does not mean they won't fuck up the netcode.
     
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  12. fdiaz78

    fdiaz78 2[H]4U

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    MJ has zero credibility with me after that atrocious Warhamner Online game. This guy would go on and on promising an MMO that never existed. No wonder he is begging for money on KS. What reputable publisher would give money to him after that failure?
     
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  13. fdiaz78

    fdiaz78 2[H]4U

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    Only net code? I wish that was the only thing wrong with WHO.
     
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  14. SilverSliver

    SilverSliver [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Well, it was the original fuck up. RvR was actually pretty fun until you got to the bigger keeps. Everything after that was a trainwreck, though.
     
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  15. HardwareSearcher

    HardwareSearcher Limp Gawd

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    Yet another cookie-cutter MMO, just one based on an older (and admittedly slightly better than modern WoW-style) cutout. Destined for failure. Give me an innovative sandbox game and you got my interest.
     
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  16. Stiler

    Stiler [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I haven't listened to it all yet, but is the Combat going to be the usual generic mmo "action bar" style or is it going to be something more player skill focused?

    He talks a lot about how they need to make it "fun" and if it's going to stick with the usual mmo combat that's about the quickest way to make it NOT fun.
     
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  17. EPOQ

    EPOQ [H]ard|Gawd

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    There weren't specifics in the interview about if its hotbar/cursor/tab target or action/crosshair based combat. He did say that he wanted more weight to the actions of avatars, thus there will be no moving while spamming projectiles, arrows, etc., which either way, adds some "skill" into the equation about having to think about the consequences of your actions before executing an attack. Oh how I loathe players spamming numbers while frantically running and jumping in circles.

    With them not putting the money into PvE development, I'm hoping the combat system will have a lot of depth and variety. I prefer the "more is better" approach. More races, more classes, more skills to choose from.
     
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  18. EPOQ

    EPOQ [H]ard|Gawd

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    EQNext, I hope.
     
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  19. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger 3.5GB GTX 970 Slayer

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    Warhammer Online was rushed by EA. DAOC and Camelot Unchained was/will not be ;).
     
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  20. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger 3.5GB GTX 970 Slayer

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    Trollolol... ? MMO's are MMO's, just as FPS are FPS, or platformers are platformers. What are you getting at? Just because it's an MMO doesn't mean it's cookie-cutter, in fact it sounds the opposite of 2005/later MMO's, more of a throwback to the good MMO's of years past.
     
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  21. HardwareSearcher

    HardwareSearcher Limp Gawd

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    For a short time, there was a goal (and consumer demand) in the industry to achieve a "living, breathing, evolving" virtual world where thousands of players interacted through both cooperation and competition to achieve social, political, military, economic, and personal goals, and as a result reacting to and changing the very same world in which everyone was partaking. Pre-CU SWG and EVE both only went half-way. And Pre-CU SWG never even achieved its original intentions due to many obstacles.

    Get an expert Call of Duty player to try playing Arma 2 and see how well he does right away, if an "fps is an fps." All I see with this new MMO are different colored treadmills for the usual pointless level grind, with a "woohooo, I get to fight random people in this giant arbitrary pre-defined team called a realm" after I put in enough hours clicking to attack thoughtless artificial targets.

    However, I guess with the industry as it is now, an MMORPG is just an MMORPG, and that state is spreading through the other genres as well.
     
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  22. Sycraft

    Sycraft [H]ardness Supreme

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    Doesn't mean it won't be rushed. If the money dries up, they either have to release, or fold. The only way a developer can just develop forever is if they have enough money they can just pay for as long as they need. If they need funds to stay open then either they are at the mercy of a publisher, or investors.

    If you read some of the interviews with Brian Fargo, who knows what he's doing with regards to games, he talks about how they have a pretty strict schedule for Wasteland 2 because a slipped month costs a lot. They have only so much money from KS, they have to get it done with that, find other finances, or release unfinished.

    For an MMO, KS will be tough because they are expensive to develop. You not only need a game, you need a server architecture, hosting, etc. Funds that would be sufficient for a normal game wouldn't necessarily for an MMO.

    I'd love to see some great RvR, as PvP in all newer MMOs is "meh" at best for me, but I am not that optimistic here.
     
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  23. Stiler

    Stiler [H]ardForum Junkie

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    MMO's are not like FPS games, they are a genre that is open to other sub genres.

    You can have space combat mmo's, fantasy rpg mmo's, modern action mmo's, FPS mmo (planetside, WWIIonline, etc).

    However even though you "can" do many things within an mmo, there is a "cookie cutter" formula that almost all mmo's stick to, it was first set by EQ, with it's "Theme park" design, hotkey focused combat system, the "trinity" class focus, this is the overall formula that almost any mmo uses, including WoW.

    I don't think we even know enough about Camelot Unchained to say what it is yet or not, the simple fact that it's not going to have PVE, but straight up focused on RVR is a change.

    Also from listning to more of the internview that doesn't mean the game world won't have wildlife or npc's, they just won't have quests, drops, exp, etc (but there's a crafting system in place, so hopefully animals yield hides and other things used for crafting).
     
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  24. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger 3.5GB GTX 970 Slayer

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    That was my point.... Just because a game is part of one overarching genre ddoesn't mean it is identical. Hence I was laughing at saying it is another generic mmo, just as I would laugh at a COD player saying Arma was a generic fps.
     
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  25. Comixbooks

    Comixbooks Ignore Me

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  26. tys90

    tys90 Gawd

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    Has any MMO in history been decent on launch day? I just have so little faith in MMOs these days. Regular games can't even get their launch days down. If it takes a year for a MMO to become polished enough to draw a crowd after it's launched, it's going to close down or go FTP before that happens. If it takes an extra year to develop, it's dead before it finishes.

    EVE is one of the only games that I've played where I felt like the developer had their sh*t together but then again, I joined about a year after the launch. WOW was good while I played it but it was several years along by the time I tried it, I heard the launch wasn't so great.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
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  27. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger 3.5GB GTX 970 Slayer

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  28. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger 3.5GB GTX 970 Slayer

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    RIFT actually had a very strong launch. :eek:
     
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  29. Sycraft

    Sycraft [H]ardness Supreme

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    Ya. The first and only MMO I've ever tried that launched right. It worked well, no big game breaking bugs, new servers were brought up quickly to deal with the load as more people came rushing in, they limited numbers on servers to keep the from blowing up, etc. You could actually go and play the game without real issue from day one.

    Now sad that we have to look to that as something special, that is how ALL MMO launches should be. However it is the only one I've personally ever seen. Every other MMO I've tried had big problems on day 1, often to the point most people couldn't play, and it took quite a while to get all cleared up.

    Hopefully Rift is the harbinger of better things to come and a non-problematic launch becomes expected for MMOs.
     
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  30. Climber

    Climber [H]ardness Supreme

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    Eve had a smooth launch because no one played the damn thing in the beginning. All you could do was mine and fly around. I remember making macros for my miners coming back from class and doing it all over again. Got bored after a month basically playing wall street online in space.
     
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  31. Godmachine

    Godmachine [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Its going to take A LOT more than $2 Million to handle development and maintain servers for this kind of MMO. I can't possibly imagine this will be happening smoothly at all.

    I loved DAOC but without a more serious financial backing I don't think this one has a chance.
     
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  32. Sycraft

    Sycraft [H]ardness Supreme

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    No it was pretty disastrous bug-wise. It isn't just the server stability people are talking about, but game. The game was just loaded full of bugs (I was a beta tester and was appalled when they said they were going live) and there was a virtual player revolt on the forums over it.
     
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  33. Stiler

    Stiler [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Did you watch the video?

    He's throwing in 2million of his own money on top of this + he has secured another million (most likely from private investors) so 5million if the kickstarter hits the 2 million goal. Plus he said that he is not taking any money from this to pay his salary/perks/benefits, it will go to the game/developers.
     
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  34. jbonez21

    jbonez21 Limp Gawd

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    I agree, 5 million won't cut it. Didn't Rift have a 50 million dollar budget?
     
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  35. Stiler

    Stiler [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You also have to take into account, CU isn't going to have PVE.

    This means NO money is being spent on quest, npc's for said quests, loot drops, loot balancing from drops.

    That means it can save a TON of money on people that they'd have to use to model npc's, animate npc's, write for quests, QA for all that, Modelers for weapons/armours from all those PVE loot drops, etc.

    I'd wager the majority of an mmo's budget these days, in game slike WoW, Rift, etc are geared toward the PVE aspect.

    Plus take into account the "marekting" from the budget, a lot of big publishers like EA, etc spend a HUUUUUUUUUUGE amount of money on marketing, sometimes even more then the games own budget.
     
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  36. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger 3.5GB GTX 970 Slayer

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    I think it was around $30-40m, including funding to start the company up and begin other projects like End of Nations at the time. See below though for why this is wholly irrelevant. Different project scopes entirely.


    PVE takes up an obscene amount of most MMO budgets which Camelot Unchained won't have, and additionally they have further investors lined up for afterward if the kickstarter succeeds, per their page, for additional funding. So it's not even "just $5 million", it'll be a good bit more than that. I think DAOC was made on a multi-million budget in the single-digit range. When you see $200 million "needed" for a game like SWTOR, they're talking absurdly expensive marketing, absurdly expensive voice actors, ginormous teams to create art, quest content, test it, animation, characters, license an engine, etc. CU is going to be significantly smaller in scope: housing, RVR, and crafting, with an engine built from the ground-up for performance in large battles.

    Bolded the last line for emphasis, that is absolutely correct. This game isn't aiming to be a WOW-buster, and isn't going to be going for mass-marketing tens of millions of dollar ad campaigns.
     
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  37. SilverSliver

    SilverSliver [H]ardForum Junkie

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    They have said absolutely ZERO about how they are going to deal with many players on the screen at once. Nothing. Nada.

    They have how many pages and flow diagrams and hours of work into showing you what kickstarter rewards you get if you spend 76.50 vs 325.04 but have said absolutely nothing on how they are going to make massive RvR not suck.

    Sorry, not good enough to get my money.
     
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  38. Comixbooks

    Comixbooks Ignore Me

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    Someone said Kickstarter games are based on Nosteliga usually but if you have the right people maybe not so I think the Shroud of the Avatar will be good not sure of this game simply because it's not a clone of DAOC. The thing is though DAOC had a 2.5 million budget back in 2000 or whatever this has from what I heard like 7 million budget if the goal is met Mark put up 2 million and another guy put in 3 million and 2 million from the kickstarter so it can't be all that bad =)
     
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  39. Stiler

    Stiler [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Mark has talked about this time and again.

    They are building their own engine and in terms of importance, the amount of players and smooth performance in RVR is their top focus, over graphics, etc.

    You can find quotes form him about this all over the place, mmorpg.com, etc.
     
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  40. Comixbooks

    Comixbooks Ignore Me

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    Just watched the video on Kickstarter sounds good still wish they had some NPCs in there for hecks sake.
     
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