California Officially Becomes First in Nation Mandating Solar Power for New Homes

Red Falcon

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You know how retarded leftists sound when they see nazis everywhere?
People on the right don't sound any smarter when they do it.
The irony is that the Nazi party (Socialists) is a left-wing party and have much more in common with liberals and modern-day socialists.
So when leftists are seeing Nazis everywhere, they must be looking in the mirror, since what they are doing this day and age is exactly what the Brownshirts did in Germany in the 1930s.

History repeats itself.
Also, looks like Democracy voted itself out of existence in California.
 

gamerk2

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What’s that have to do with shoving a feel good “green” idea down the throats of every home builder? Adding hazards for emergency services, drive up electrical costs, force electrical suppliers to use inefficient/pollution generating power plants (the kind that can ramp quickly to offset solar fluctuations), ect? Nevermind the high toxic and combustable batteries some may use with these systems. I bet a decent portion of peope would not bother to maintain or dispose of those systems properly. The batteries or the panels. Can’t wait to hear about California’s water being tainted by carcinogens in 30 years.

You also completely ignored my retort on you saying California leads in education but they actually have one of the highest drop out rates.
Every single point is easily debunk-able. Solar doesn't add any additional hazards to utility workers or emergency services; most setups outright shutdown solar if the main grid goes down. Solar drives down electrical costs; it's significantly cheaper then Coal, Oil, Hydro, or Nuclear at this point. "Baseload" power is a load of BS; it's simply not needed in any large quantities, especially if Solar and other renewables are backed up by batteries. And the toxic in batters is several orders of magnitude less then the toxic involved in oil extraction.

All you are doing is repeating every major anti-solar talking point that's been fed to you.
 

Arcygenical

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Honestly all this will do is increase market pressure to produce more panels.

Let's let the CA peeps pay for solar panels, and drive innovation/supply for the rest of the country/North America... The scale of economies here isn't a negative if you don't live in CA.
 

DocNo

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Fun fact, The Hoover dam which was a marvel of it's time hydroelectric is now running out of power due to it's own environmental impact ( nothing is free ).
It's not producing as much power as it used to because the area is in a drought and there isn't as much water as there once was.

And the drought that's going on right now is natural - ones in the 30's and 50's were worse.

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/is-the-wests-dry-spell-really-a-megadrought-16824

Once the snow comes back to the western side of the rockies the reservoirs will fill and the generators will go back to full capacity. I still remember pretty vividly the spillways in 1983 - we went down pretty routinely to watch and it never got old. I got a summer job with the USBR and got keys to let myself in and take the elevator down to the offices at the base of the dam - that was fun! It's an amazing structure and well worth the short trip from Vegas to see, even if they neutered the hell out of the tour post 9/11 :(
 

gamerk2

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The irony is that the Nazi party (Socialists) is a left-wing party and have much more in common with liberals and modern-day socialists.
So when leftists are seeing Nazis everywhere, they must be looking in the mirror, since what they are doing this day and age is exactly what the Brownshirts did in Germany in the 1930s.

History repeats itself.
Also, looks like Democracy voted itself out of existence in California.
Which is ironic, given California is the most-democratic state, due to the ease of getting voter initiatives on the ballot.

And Nazi's are Nationalists first and foremost, and Nationalism is a hard-right ideology. But hey, let's ignore that Nazi/Facist parties ALWAYS are right-wing parties and focus instead of the one lefist thing they did.
 

Dayaks

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Every single point is easily debunk-able. Solar doesn't add any additional hazards to utility workers or emergency services; most setups outright shutdown solar if the main grid goes down. Solar drives down electrical costs; it's significantly cheaper then Coal, Oil, Hydro, or Nuclear at this point. "Baseload" power is a load of BS; it's simply not needed in any large quantities, especially if Solar and other renewables are backed up by batteries. And the toxic in batters is several orders of magnitude less then the toxic involved in oil extraction.

All you are doing is repeating every major anti-solar talking point that's been fed to you.
Or maybe I am an electrical engineer that’s actually looked into it.
 

Shogon

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I'd rather us build nuclear plants than continue on with solar here in Cali. Barely 17% of the US power production is based on renewable energies, and not even a 1/4 of that is based on solar.

Make use of hydro-power before we siphon all the water in this state to places like LA.
 

Laowai

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There is nothing right-wing about the Nazi party at all.
Nazis confiscated all guns and killed millions of people (not as much as Communism did, but still) - what exactly is right-wing about the Nazi party exactly?

If you are talking about neo-Nazis, they are more on the nationalist-side of things, but their want for control over others is still very leftist (Socialist) and hardly what anyone would call right-wing.
The "hard-right" as you call it would be Constitutionalists who want freedom for everyone and true equality, regardless of race, religion, creed, etc. - exactly what the United States of America was founded on.

Nice try, though.
I think you should read a bit more on the Nazi topic. I like to keep things simple and consider socialists those who advocate workers/gov't owning the means of production. That was not a core tenet of the Nazi party. They paid lip-service to socialism as socialism was popular at the time...and is now, sadly.
For me, I don't give half of a shit if nazis are considered extreme left or extreme right. It's the extreme part that's dangerous, left or right is just flavor. Both are deadly.
The more difficult part is determining when the left goes too far. It's fairly easy to see when the right goes too far.
I'd say, the left goes too far when they try controlling speech. Others may disagree. I think history is in my favor though.
 

DocNo

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"Baseload" power is a load of BS; it's simply not needed in any large quantities, especially if Solar and other renewables are backed up by batteries.
lol - batteries are in their infancy - your ignorance really is astounding considering you are throwing terms like BS around.

You are right that ultimately tech like batteries are going to be key to balancing things out. Even better would be if we could figure out how to build super-capacitors cheaply. A lot less rare earth metals and environmental impact, potentially. Carbon fiber nanotube super capacitors were supposed to be a thing but I haven't seen much about them lately.

One big drawback to capacitors is they can dump their entire capacity all at once. Which another way to name it is an explosion; batteries are at least self-limiting to some extent and not quite as volatile in runaway failure situations.

In the meantime for storage even though it's not the most efficient, pumped storage can help even supply/demand out. https://e360.yale.edu/features/for_storing_electricity_utilities_are_turning_to_pumped_hydro

That such an inefficient mechanism can still be economically useful should be more proof that baseload is a serious and non-trivial issue. Unfortunately you have to have the appropriate geology and space for such solutions. And then hope the NIMBYs don't shut it down.

Anyway back to the originally outrageous statement - it is ALL about baseload and coal and natural gas aren't going anywhere any time soon, especially with nuts who completely stopped all investment in nuclear in this country. Instead of burying toxic crap in the desert we should be burning it. And new nuclear tech - China is about to go straight from coal to Thorium, thoroughly lapping not only us but the rest of the west as well: https://www.environmentalleader.com/2016/08/chinas-research-into-thorium-will-have-implications-for-nuclear-energy-in-the-united-states/

The success of the west - the whole industrial revolution - was on cheap energy. China is about to pass us in a significant way. In the 80's we were worrying about learning Japanese - we should be learning Mandarin instead of arguing about who's more woke or diverse or the bigger victim.

And if solar and other renewables are such a slam dunk and "baseload" is such BS, why did Germany run to coal and natural gas (from Russia of all places!) when they over-reacted to Fukushima and went full anti-nuclear?

https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/07/13/germanys-incoherent-energy-policy-13192

That's far from the only citation, the above is just one of the more concise. If you think them too biased then just do some searching; it's there if you really are open minded. We DO NOT want to go down the path of Germany or heck even France. I prefer my cities not on fire.

Ugh. It's always painful reading forum threads like these. Just because you flip a switch on a wall and a light turns on, that doesn't mean that electrical generation capacity works the same way. Aside from photovoltaics and fuel cells all other electricity comes from spinning things in magnetic fields to generate electric current. And for large loads they are large spinning things that can take DAYS to ramp up in the case of the largest steam turbines - whether the steam is generated by coal, oil, nuclear power or natural gas. The economics of natural gas lends itself to supporting more, smaller turbines so you can have more granularity, but it's still in the hours or more from a stop to producing useful energy. All of this are exactly what the discussions around "base load" are about and "renewables" aren't going to be able to touch it any time soon, even if we converted all our roofs to Tesla's shingles (which I'm a huge fan of and would love to deploy at least on my south facing roof).

The scale utilities work at is simply mind boggling. The fragility of the grid but that it works as well as it does is pretty amazing stuff. If you want to really have some fun, read up about grid synchronization and ultra high voltage DC transmission.

"baseload BS" - ha!
 
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Laowai

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Anyway back to the originally outrageous statement - it is ALL about baseload and coal and natural gas aren't going anywhere any time soon, especially with nuts who completely stopped all investment in nuclear in this country. Instead of burying toxic crap in the desert we should be burning it. And new nuclear tech - China is about to go straight from coal to Thorium, thoroughly lapping not only us but the rest of the west as well: https://www.environmentalleader.com/2016/08/chinas-research-into-thorium-will-have-implications-for-nuclear-energy-in-the-united-states/
This. A thousand times. This.
 

Nanogrip

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But when everyone's at work at school, and everything aside from the fridge and a few things at home, solar panels don't do much for the family. If solar panels feed back to the grid, then power companies must offset the electrical bill.
 
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The "hard-right" as you call it would be Constitutionalists who want freedom for everyone and true equality, regardless of race, religion, creed, etc. - exactly what the United States of America was founded on.
6xhNCT8.jpg

100% of the [White] Founding Fathers of the United States were "White Nationalists™" and they set up our White created nation as a republic/indirect democracy to "protect the minority of the opulent" precisely because they despised "equality™". Nice try, though. Reminder: Nothing on earth is more Racist™ (hostile) than international bankers corrupting our government and forcing White people (at gunpoint) to live around Tens of Millions of blatant anti-Whites/non-White supremacists in our own White created nation. In actual reality though. Welcome.
 
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Vader1975

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The part of this discussion that has been missed is this will increase the cost of solar to the entire nation. Once you make it mandatory then you don't have to compete as much. Just like car insurance. We made it mandatory and the prices are nuts. When it wasn't mandatory they had to try and convince you to buy it. Now higher volume will lower cost to produce it but they will just line their pockets with it not pass that savings to consumers because they can.
 

Burticus

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I have some neighbors who put them in and have regretted it. The first hail storm that came along destroyed them. So they bought covers to protect them from hail damage. Each time there is a storm they rush around pulling the doors from the garage, as they cannot be permanently mounted on the panels due to nowhere to open them without blocking the panels. Their insurance premiums skyrocketed.

They are 4 years in and tell me they are not going to cover the cost of installation and maintenance for another 17 years, and that is a best case scenario. Quote: "We bought into the marketing bullshit and should have done more homework. We tried to sell the house and no one wants it after they learn of the issues with those panels."

Keep on trucking CA, keep on trucking.
I wondered about hail and storm damage. A bunch of people in my neighborhood have them, but I haven't noticed damage on them. But everyone in my zip code got all their skylights blown out (me too) during a hail storm about 2-3 years ago ang got new roofs. I wonder how well they held up. I sure as hell won't be up on my roof *AGAIN* during a hail storm slapping covers on solar panels. I say again, because when my big ass skylight blew out, I got up there duing the storm and threw a tarp at it. We had just spent a fortune on home renovations and I didn't want my house to flood. Wifey called me the biggest dumbass ever, and now I agree with her. Getting crippled isn't worth saving a couple grand worth of home damage.
 

WhoMe

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You would think. Pull up the cheapest standard of living city in CA. Oxnard. Pull up house prices. 485k 500k Pull up this little hut: 3619_Orange_Drive-Oxnard-CA Its a 1968 HUT for crying out loud. It looks like crap...1200 sq feet. 525k. This state's housing is bad. Really bad. Even in rural communities comparatively.
Sorry a lot houses around here sell around $100k for 2br 1 bath (a lot less if they are fixer uppers), I've got one I'll be selling in awhile...sure wish I could get 1/2 a mil for it. You do know there are places in CA not near a city right? Be that as it may, I still support doing the solar thing we headed for at least a 3C rise by 2100...think of future generations.
 

SLee

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"Baseload" power is a load of BS; it's simply not needed in any large quantities, especially if Solar and other renewables are backed up by batteries. And the toxic in batters is several orders of magnitude less then the toxic involved in oil extraction.
This is Germany's electricity production from January. At the start of the year, it had about 42 GW of solar and 55 GW of wind, with peak total production of about 80 GW.

hd9z4f7.png


https://www.energy-charts.de/power.htm?source=all-sources&year=2018&month=1

Despite all that wind and solar, "baseload" generation in the form of brown coal, nuclear and biomass run continuously for most of the month, simply because wind is so variable. And since Germany's latitude is pretty high, it has winter and solar is essentially useless of the entire month.

No practical amount of batteries will account for the wind lulls or winter.
 

seanreisk

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This law is actually a clever tax.

California is suffering from power shortages. They also have a projected future demand for electricity that is greater than they can fulfill or contract for.

Their environmental legislation has made it difficult for them to build cheap power plants (coal, gas), California has no more hydro power, and the power companies do not want to build major solar and wind installations without at least 50% government backing, which would require the legislature to raise taxes.

What California has done with this legislation is create a one-time tax on new home builders that should eventually be paid back to the home builder (in power savings) while increasing the home's property value and lowering the state's future projected demand. California is a good state for solar power, and as the installed base of household solar goes up expertise increases, innovation increases, knowledge about how this power source works within the entire electrical grid increases, and businesses look for opportunities to enter the market by offering superior products.

I say just let it happen. We experiment to see what works.


P.S. The California home owners with solar power installations need to redefine each home solar installation as a small business, then unionize, get legal representation and then demand that the legislature protect them from predatory laws favored by the power companies.

P.P.S.
No practical amount of batteries will account for the wind lulls or winter.
This is why I lobby for all excess power being converted to pressurized hydrogen. Only coal, gas and biomass are efficient at preventing excess power; all other forms of power have lost potential that goes unused. No matter how energy inefficient high-pressure hydrogen is, it is still a green power source that can capture otherwise wasted energy.

P.P.P.S. I am also hot for thorium power plants. Idaho has enough thorium to power the world for infinity (there's enough thorium for it to naturally decay to a reusable state before we'd ever mine it out).
 
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DeathFromBelow

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No practical amount of batteries will account for the wind lulls or winter.
You build excess wind/solar capacity, then use it to pump water into reservoirs behind dams and to generate hydrogen via electrolysis. Wind-generated hydrogen is already almost as cheap as natural gas and it can be stored and distributed via pipelines with extremely high efficiency just like natural gas. Hydrogen/natural gas blends require almost no adaptations to the existing natural gas pipelines and the storage capacity of the pipeline network is massive.
 
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seanreisk

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Hydrogen/natural gas blends require almost no adaptations to the existing natural gas pipelines and the storage capacity of the pipeline network is massive.
I was reading about this! :) I knew that hydrogen needed pipelines for it to be an efficient energy source, but I had no idea that it could ride around on the existing natural gas pipelines like digital signals riding around on electrical wires. Very cool stuff, I'm amazed by the things pure researchers come up with.
 

Nafensoriel

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/snipsnip!
Trying to explain grid complexity is harder than explaining why you can't just shut a pipeline off with a switch. I applaud your attempt at educating people who will flat out believe Wikipedia and their favourite website over actual engineering and science.



--
This is just a tax and a stupid one. Way to price new buyers out of the market even farther. Most builders within a days drive of me will not touch a custom build house below 350k even if they have no other projects on the books. It forces them to work at a loss otherwise. In California, I imagine that issue is even more extreme.

Also, I somehow find it stupid to the extreme to tie power generation to housing starts. "Oh no we need more power.. Let's build some houses" doesn't work in any universe unless you can somehow microgrid the neighbourhood out of the main grid... Which we just can't at the moment.
 

Dayaks

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You build excess wind/solar capacity, then use it to pump water into reservoirs behind dams and to generate hydrogen via electrolysis. Wind-generated hydrogen is already almost as cheap as natural gas and it can be stored and distributed via pipelines with extremely high efficiency just like natural gas. Hydrogen/natural gas blends require almost no adaptations to the existing natural gas pipelines and the storage capacity of the pipeline network is massive.
Maybe if we weren’t constantly trying to kill eachother.

The US uses 445,000 megawatts. Lets say we need to buffer for 30%, or 130,000 megawatts. For reference the Hoover dam generates 400MW on average. You’d need 300 Hoover dams... maybe you can get that down to 70 if the resevoir is purpose built. But you get the idea. US wide storing that kind of energy would take a huge effort.

Of course it depends on what length of time you need to compensate for, ect, but it’s not an easy task. The grid would need a massive overhaul as well.

Hydrogen could be a lot better from a distribution aspect but would no doubt be absolutely massive. I’d love to see it personally.
 
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jamesv

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This is Germany's electricity production from January. At the start of the year, it had about 42 GW of solar and 55 GW of wind, with peak total production of about 80 GW.

View attachment 126438

https://www.energy-charts.de/power.htm?source=all-sources&year=2018&month=1

Despite all that wind and solar, "baseload" generation in the form of brown coal, nuclear and biomass run continuously for most of the month, simply because wind is so variable. And since Germany's latitude is pretty high, it has winter and solar is essentially useless of the entire month.

No practical amount of batteries will account for the wind lulls or winter.
Smart as us putting us thousands of the giant turbines in migratory paths.
We subsidize them sitting idle during the windy season.

German Brown Lignite is the nastiest Coal on Earth. It smells like it looks too.

I think California has so many unenforceable stupid feel good laws, but this isn’t one of them.
I can tolerate the girly men in Sacramento as long as they get half of the important stuff right.

Solar was a nightmare in Nevada in 1994 when we first bought it.
But it’s really nice to have now.
I even bought a trailer hitch for camping.

The old diesel generator is so damn loud and smelly.
Great for pissing off the neighbors though.
 

lcpiper

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Some thoughts on this: 1) when first building the home is the cheapest time to add a solar roof; 2) California tends to get more sun then quite a few other states (but I wonder how this will work for mountain homes built facing a direction that receives little light and/or will be snow covered for months out of the year); 3) will generally pay for itself eventually, especially with the electric rates many Californians pay; and 4) as has been mentioned by at least one other poster, homes in California are so expensive that this adds a much smaller percentage increase to the overall cost of a home than most places in flyover country.

Separately, requiring this for new warehouses would also seem to make a lot of sense.

None of it makes any sense.

Look, unless the State has also required standards of efficiency and build quality, then builders are going to install the cheapest shit to meet the requirements. How's that going to work out when your home-owner's warranty is gone?

Instead they should simply encourage it as others have done, let people buy the good stuff because it's their money. Let them determine if their location is conducive.

Government mandate all depends on how well they are doing on the mandating.
 

Wierdo

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If it's such an easy sell then why the need for a mandate?
Because California agrees with the science of climate change, so they don't want this stuff to just sell well, they want it to sell as fast as possible. If it drives down costs then the laggard states will adopt it eventually due to the cost savings and that makes it a national trend.

It's a voter mandated effort to combat an existential threat in line with the rest of the civilized world. You don't have to agree with it, but that's the state's goal, and in the process they may become a major player in this industry, further cementing California's position in the GDP charts for this century if they pull it off before China does.
 

Dayaks

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Because California agrees with the science of climate change, so they don't want this stuff to just sell well, they want it to sell as fast as possible. If it drives down costs then the laggard states will adopt it eventually due to the cost savings and that makes it a national trend.

It's a voter mandated effort to combat an existential threat in line with the rest of the civilized world. You don't have to agree with it, but that's the state's goal, and in the process they may become a major player in this industry, further cementing California's position in the GDP charts for this century if they pull it off before China does.
Does the law require the panels to come from California? If not I don’t know what you posted makes sense.

Someone should tell the rest of the civilized world, including those in the Paris Accord to maybe actually care...

84DC053C-7E32-48D9-A3A1-003F23F63031.png
 
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Wierdo

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Does the law require the panels to come from California?
No, why would it? That's how you establish lazy protected markets where products are high priced and advances are stagnant.

This will not discriminate against any other country or state, they're all welcome to participate in the process, California is just making sure the market grows faster to stimulate more jobs and investment and commoditize it more rapidly.

You encourage the technology in an open playing field to promote competition among participants and let the market forces bring prices down as the market matures. California will certainly get its share of the pie though, as they have allot of jobs and R&D funding in this industry, they're pushing hard to take a technology leadership role.

We got over ten million Americans working in this new sector, and we're just getting started.

As for China, there are better ways to look at the big picture:
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29239194
The biggest emitters were China, which produced 29% of the total, followed by the US at 15%, the EU at 10% and India at 7.1%

But in an interesting development, China's emissions per head of population exceeding those of the European Union for the first time.

While the per capita average for the world as a whole is 5 tonnes of carbon dioxide, China is now producing 7.2 tonnes per person, to the EU's 6.8 tonnes. The US is still far ahead on 16.5 tonnes per person.
Looks like they are doing a good job keeping their pollution in check, not bad for a country that's a quarter of the world's population by itself.
 
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cjcox

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At the same time, California HOA's are trying to prevent you from parking your 10mpg jumbo SUV on the street for longer than 2 hours. Residents are currently doing the NY shuffle to prevent towing. Bob R. says, "I have to spend more on gas, but it's ok as long as they don't touch my baby."
 

Dayaks

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No, why would it? That's how you establish lazy protected markets where products are high priced and advances are stagnant.

This will not discriminate against any other country or state, they're all welcome to participate in the process, California is just making sure the market grows faster to stimulate more jobs and investment and commoditize it more rapidly.

You encourage the technology in an open playing field to promote competition among participants and let the market forces bring prices down as the market matures. California will certainly get its share of the pie though, as they have allot of jobs and R&D funding in this industry, they're pushing hard to take a technology leadership role.

We got over ten million Americans working in this new sector, and we're just getting started.

As for China, there are better ways to look at the big picture:
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29239194


Looks like they are doing a good job keeping their pollution in check, not bad for a country that's a quarter of the world's population by itself.
How does this help California become an industry leader over China? It doesn’t.

China just needs time to surpass the US emissions per capita. They more than doubled their emissions in the time frame the US almost halved theirs.

The point is the hypocrisy which seemed lost on you. The most vocal (EU for example) increased their emissions by more than 40%.

It’s pretty funny you talk about a free market all the while California is shoving a solution down the throats of it’s citizens that on the whole doesn’t make sense...
 
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raz-0

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So let's see, if I am forced to use solar and can then ditch the electric (for which the bills are going to be higher for the reason said above), is the state going to mandate next that I must have electricity from the power line to support keeping a potentially careless utility in business?
If it's like NJ, you will have a lot of BS forced on you. One of them being that they make life difficult if you don't have grid tied solar, and also make it difficult to get more solar than their magic grid tied solar formula determines is right for you. Lots of stuff to protect utilities.
 

skates15

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What happens if your roof doesn't face the right direction to make the solar work? I'm assuming most of the homes impacted will be the large developments, so I'm curious what good it would do to install the panels if they don't face the right direction? That's why solar installers will come out and survey your roof to see if solar is even doable.

I'd hate to buy a new home and the solar doesn't really produce much electricity.

Also, will the homes store the batteries so you can run your appliances off them during the day, or is the electricity being stored on the grid and you are forced to buy it back as green energy?
 

FortTaylor

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Every single point is easily debunk-able. Solar doesn't add any additional hazards to utility workers or emergency services; most setups outright shutdown solar if the main grid goes down. Solar drives down electrical costs; it's significantly cheaper then Coal, Oil, Hydro, or Nuclear at this point. "Baseload" power is a load of BS; it's simply not needed in any large quantities, especially if Solar and other renewables are backed up by batteries. And the toxic in batters is several orders of magnitude less then the toxic involved in oil extraction.

All you are doing is repeating every major anti-solar talking point that's been fed to you.

If not wired appropriately solar indeed poses a danger to utility workers. They know which wire is live from their end, but they have no idea whats live if someone didn't do a proper install and it feeds back to the grid.
 

Wierdo

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How does this help California become an industry leader over China? It doesn’t.

China just needs time to surpass the US emissions per capita. They more than doubled their emissions in the time frame the US almost halved theirs.

The point is the hypocrisy which seemed lost on you. The most vocal (EU for example) increased their emissions by more than 40%.

It’s pretty funny you talk about a free market all the while California is shoving a solution down the throats of it’s citizens that on the whole doesn’t make sense...
No, it seems you think the global economy doesn't exist, California has always been a giant because its industries were good at operating on the global stage. You don't get to have a GDP larger than most other states combined by thinking small.

Just because some parts may or may not come from China, Canada, Denmark or anywhere else does not mean they cannot lead an industrial revolution. If that were the case then no major American chip or car manufacturer would be doing it, you don't need to control every aspect of production to succeed, you use the best part for the job and create the most compelling product based on that collaboration, it's not 1920 anymore.

And China is doing a pretty good job at cleaning up their side of the street, we're the ones that fell off the leadership pedestal like a drunkard, again California is doing a good job keeping us relevant in the conversation, keeping our end of the bargain, federal level clowns be damned.

California voters - including myself - have decided we want this, we're proud to support our growth and fight for our children's future. Nobody cares if you don't like it, you can do what you like in one of the other shambling states, we choose to remain the leaders in this field, and something tells me we bet on a winning horse in this economic race as usual.

Edit: Just saw an update on China today and thought I'd pass along, seems some banks are still giving loans for new coal plants, that's a sad regression this year so I'll give you that one. Until those coal plants fold and the banks adjust from the losses, this crisis will take longer to address sadly:
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/10/china-japan-south-korea-lead-global-push-to-expand-coal-plants/
 
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Nafensoriel

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
229
No, it seems you think the global economy doesn't exist, California has always been a giant because its industries were good at operating on the global stage. You don't get to have a GDP larger than most other states combined by thinking small.

Just because some parts may or may not come from China, Canada, Denmark or anywhere else does not mean they cannot lead an industrial revolution. If that were the case then no major American chip or car manufacturer would be doing it, you don't need to control every aspect of production to succeed, you use the best part for the job and create the most compelling product based on that collaboration, it's not 1920 anymore.

And China is doing a pretty good job at cleaning up their side of the street, we're the ones that fell off the leadership pedestal like a drunkard, again California is doing a good job keeping us relevant in the conversation, keeping our end of the bargain, federal level clowns be damned.

California voters - including myself - have decided we want this, we're proud to support our growth and fight for our children's future. Nobody cares if you don't like it, you can do what you like in one of the other shambling states, we choose to remain the leaders in this field, and something tells me we bet on a winning horse in this economic race as usual.
Don't take this as a personal point but I have to point out some flaws in your argument.

I don't live in California so do not know how you consider "the majority". Most voting systems actually represent a minority on their best day due to lack of voter turnout. There is also the other side of democracy(and why America is a democratic republic and not a true democracy) where you run into situations when the 51% can tell the other 49% what to do. History can tell you why this type of thinking is generally destructive.

What most here have said, simply put, is that the "we know best" attitude of California has actually harmed more people than it helps. It's very hard to take your comments about California doing things to be relevant when you take into account historical screwups like fire retardant foam. California "lead the field" in that issue and ended up causing generations of people WORLDWIDE to be exposed to chemicals we damn well know are toxic and dangerous. Not to mention that the entire idea didn't work or in many cases accelerated fires. Heck, even this issue with solar cells is most likely going to end up costing that everyone it is supposed to be helping far more than it will give them in returns.
 

maxius

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 17, 2001
Messages
3,370
Its fun to see the right leaning people in the forum loose their fucking minds over this the government sets building codes they added solar to new construction... i dont see the issue its the same as if they mandated sprinklers in new construction or gauge of wire used, how plumbing is done ect.

everyone needs to get off their high horse and get down to solutions for climate change. all power generation options should be on the table that increase capacity in the grid solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, and nucular. so we can leave our grandchildren something other than a hot used trash heap with scarce food and water.
 

Laowai

Gawd
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
534
everyone needs to get off their high horse and get down to solutions for climate change.
Solutions? To climate change? Are you daft?
The climate has been and always will change.
If you're one of those who thinks that man, in some 200 years, has gained the power to control the climate one way or the other, you're in serious need of professional evaluation.

Educate yourself.
Go nuclear!
 
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