California Dealers File Petition against Volvo's All-Inclusive Car Subscription Service

.....I mean not for nothing, my 88 Grand Marquis has cost me like 1200 in maintenance in like 7 years. 1 oil change, one tranny service and a few other things. This means I'm ahead, right??
 
RogueTadhg said:
"A threat to the traditional business model."
$600 with insurance and maintenance. Just the insurance alone would be good for most people. But also include maintenance? Bugger. I wonder what the fine print is like?
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600 for insurance / month ?!
 
greenman said:
Not sure where OP got $600 a month from. Still probably not any more than a dealer would charge tho.
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The 2018 models were $600 and $700 for the Momentum and R-Design. Volvo has raised the pricing for the 2019, most likely due to demand. They were out of 2019 XC40 allocations back in October and there was a 6 month wait for production slots.
 
WhtCastle said:
.....I mean not for nothing, my 88 Grand Marquis has cost me like 1200 in maintenance in like 7 years. 1 oil change, one tranny service and a few other things. This means I'm ahead, right??
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I drove a 2001 Grand Prix for 15 years and thought I was pushing it. I finally replaced it in 2016 due to increasing repair costs and of course, my wife was "embarrassed" to be seen in it.

Are you putting like 1000 miles/yr on that car? Your car is probably older than many people who post here. I was a senior in high school when it was new.
 
600/ a month its a fantastic deal unless the cut your legs in mileage... Im looking this shit up soon.
Dude 50/ mo insurance .. what ex- military or military?
 
nutzo said:
Full $300k insurance coverage.
I'm over 50, married, clean record, and I have a short commute, putting less than 6,000 miles a year on the car. Plus it's a Camry Hybrid which is a cheap car to insure.
Results in a reasonable cost for full insurance. I also get a better price since I pay for the full year in advance, and have my home insured with the same company.
Wife drives a 10 year old Toyota Mini Van that's even cheaper to insure since she drives even less miles.

The type of car you drive can make a big difference in the cost of insurance.
When I'm looking at new cars, I always check what it would cost to insure.
Back when I bought the Ford Explore, I was also looking at the Toyota 4Runner. The insurance would have been double what I paid for the Explorer.

As for maintenance, with the low miles driven, it hasn't been a problem with any of the Toyota's I've owned.
I had my last car, 4 cyl Camry, for 11 years. It was never in the shop except for oil changes and tires.
I did change the brakes myself at 70K, and the transmission fluid and main belt around the same time.
Only repairs where a relay for the air conditioner, a motor mount and a few light bulbs, all taken care of myself.
Total cost over the last 5 years (not including oil and tires) would have been around $300, or about $5/month.

Wife's van is now 11 years old, and I did have to spend almost $300 on the brakes last year, as I didn't have time to take care of it myself.
Other than that, we've had no problems other than a couple rear bulbs I had to replace over the years.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but compared to the Ford Explorer I had years ago, the Toyota's have been 1,000 times better.
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Even with your 'unrealistic for most' numbers you don't come up all that much ahead.
 
Uvaman2 said:
Even with your 'unrealistic for most' numbers you don't come up all that much ahead.
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He's also driving his cars for 10+ years, the Volvo program isn't for people who like to keep their cars that long. You can trade in every year for a new Volvo under this program.
 
Fuck the New Car Dealer Association. They are trying desperately to hold on to a business model that is 30yrs out of date, while demanding insane profit margins (85% profit per hour for the Service Dept). They burn through salesman like crazy, and are facing a serious shortage of quality technicians. Unless they decide to do something about it, they will get buried by the direct to consumer model. But alas their world is nothing but an echo chamber.
 
ND40oz said:
He's also driving his cars for 10+ years, the Volvo program isn't for people who like to keep their cars that long. You can trade in every year for a new Volvo under this program.
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Wow really, new car every year ? So the price which is already very good considering all the inclusive gives you that perk too !? Damn, wish that was available in Canada too (is it?).
The first year is the one a car loss most of its value, I'm surprised to read they replace it every year..
 
Merc1138 said:
Fair enough, but damn that's still cheap. My compact Ford SUV for similar coverage here in CA is probably $120/mo, less than 12k miles a year, paid for 6 months at a time, etc.

Regarding the maintenance, you're still WAY underestimating it. Heck, even the Camry you mention, never in the shop... except you've got the time and tools to have done everything yourself? I'm not talking about bulbs and other minor stuff like a simple relay, but you cannot ignore the maintenance on your camry as costing nothing simply because you had the time and tools to deal with that. Most people don't, and time = money.

Belts, fluid changes, motor mounts, brakes(beyond pads), and you didn't mention suspension(which does raise an eyebrow) are not something people are going to be able to do for $50/mo. if they need to pay someone to do it. Hell, a set of tires for a sedan you're looking at $100 a pop plus mounting, your budget barely covers that. And it's not like you drive a Toyota I drive a Ford therefore your costs are cheaper, we're talking about wear items that NEED to be replaced on any vehicle.
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Most cars don't go through that in their first 5 year cycle if they keep it under 100k miles except the basics (oil change) and the $400 new set of tires. If you have a total failure of a major part then you are seeing $1k-3k . However spark plugs most folks wont change them out until 70-100k and that again is $30. Unless you are putting on 30k+ miles per year in that short amount of time, your major parts shouldn't be totaled yet (shocks, struts etc) .

This seems to be a 3-5 year plan not a 10 year plan (where maintenance is a beotch)
 
Merc1138 said:
Fair enough, but damn that's still cheap. My compact Ford SUV for similar coverage here in CA is probably $120/mo, less than 12k miles a year, paid for 6 months at a time, etc.

Regarding the maintenance, you're still WAY underestimating it. Heck, even the Camry you mention, never in the shop... except you've got the time and tools to have done everything yourself? I'm not talking about bulbs and other minor stuff like a simple relay, but you cannot ignore the maintenance on your camry as costing nothing simply because you had the time and tools to deal with that. Most people don't, and time = money.

Belts, fluid changes, motor mounts, brakes(beyond pads), and you didn't mention suspension(which does raise an eyebrow) are not something people are going to be able to do for $50/mo. if they need to pay someone to do it. Hell, a set of tires for a sedan you're looking at $100 a pop plus mounting, your budget barely covers that. And it's not like you drive a Toyota I drive a Ford therefore your costs are cheaper, we're talking about wear items that NEED to be replaced on any vehicle.
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I didn't include tires and oil changes in that $50/month as those are normal wear items for any car, gas or electric.

And it's not an estimate, but past experience. Of course all it take is one major problem out of warranty to blow my number out of the water.

All the repairs my Camry needed only took a few hours of my time on the last 6 years.
Belt was easy and it only took about a hour of my time. Motor mount was the top one, took about 20 minutes. Only tools needed for either was a couple socket wrenches.
Air conditioner fuse took about 5 minutes. (took way longer to research the cause on the problem on the internet)
Transmission fluid was also simple, but took a couple hours (pull the return line from the transmission cooler, run the car until a quart drains out, turn car off, add a quart, repeat).
Only tools needed were a pliers and a funnel.

No problems with suspension on any of my Toyotas yet (unlike my Ford Explorer)
Not to just bash Fords, but my Explorer had more problems than my other 6 cars combined (3 Toyotas, 1 Honda, 1 Acura and a Nissan). Luckily I bought the extended warranty.

I replace my cars before they hit 100,000 miles, as that's about the time they will likely start needing more maintenance. Due to the low miles I drive, that's usually about 10-12 years.
The reason we still have a 12 year old minivan is because it only has 50k miles on it. :eek:

Cars are parked in a garage, so that helps them last longer too (rubber & plastic parts) as they are out of the hot sun.
(even get a discount on the insurance for garage parking) :D
 
USMCGrunt said:
but! but! My anecdotal evidence is wholly representative of the US population!
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Never said that, just relaying my experience, which is doable for anyone who knows how to use basic tools.

I also know people who wouldn't know which end of a screwdrive to use. Those people are usually better of leasing or renting.
 
oROEchimaru said:
Most cars don't go through that in their first 5 year cycle if they keep it under 100k miles except the basics (oil change) and the $400 new set of tires. If you have a total failure of a major part then you are seeing $1k-3k . However spark plugs most folks wont change them out until 70-100k and that again is $30. Unless you are putting on 30k+ miles per year in that short amount of time, your major parts shouldn't be totaled yet (shocks, struts etc) .

This seems to be a 3-5 year plan not a 10 year plan (where maintenance is a beotch)
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It takes me 10-12 years to put 70-100k miles on my car, so it is a 10 year plan for me.
Car gets garaged when not at work, so the rubber/plastic parts also last/look better longer.

Definitely wouldn't work for someone driving 20-30k a year.
 
nutzo said:
Never said that, just relaying my experience, which is doable for anyone who knows how to use basic tools.

I also know people who wouldn't know which end of a screwdrive to use. Those people are usually better of leasing or renting.
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The "few hours" you described, is hundreds and potentially a couple thousand in labor. A few "basic tools" can be a couple hundred dollars(easily) and not everyone has the time for that. It's actually kind of funny how you're so far outside of the norm and don't even realize it, generally happens on [H] with people not understanding why major computer manufacturers do certain things while forgetting that the type people here account for 5% or less of computer users.
oROEchimaru said:
Most cars don't go through that in their first 5 year cycle if they keep it under 100k miles except the basics (oil change) and the $400 new set of tires. If you have a total failure of a major part then you are seeing $1k-3k . However spark plugs most folks wont change them out until 70-100k and that again is $30. Unless you are putting on 30k+ miles per year in that short amount of time, your major parts shouldn't be totaled yet (shocks, struts etc) .

This seems to be a 3-5 year plan not a 10 year plan (where maintenance is a beotch)
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Sure, the first few years maintenance is cheap, but it's 5+ when you start having to look at suspension, fluid changes other than oil, and the other maintenance stuff that can actually start to add up. I acknowledge that my sub 12k miles a year is on the low end, but nutzo and his sub 6k and ignoring time spent on DIY repairs and not even acknowledging that his situation is so far off the curve he isn't even a potential customer in whatever meeting this was proposed at Volvo is just silly.
 
Maybe I am misreading everyone but if it is a 200-300$ monthly upgrade it isn't worth it if you plan on turning the car in every few years before the maintenance costs kick in.
 
MMitch said:
Wow really, new car every year ? So the price which is already very good considering all the inclusive gives you that perk too !? Damn, wish that was available in Canada too (is it?).
The first year is the one a car loss most of its value, I'm surprised to read they replace it every year..
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Yes, it's a 2 year subscription but you can extend it at any time after the first 12 months and change to a different vehicle.

New vehicle upgrade
Care by Volvo is a 24-month subscription plan, however, you can upgrade to a new Volvo anytime after the first 12 months.
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I'm not sure if they US version offers the Access option, but they do in other markets:

Access to another Volvo
Subscription to Care by Volvo means you get access to a larger or smaller car at short notice for a period of time.
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It makes it easier to get a larger vehicle if you need one for something like people are visiting for the holidays or something.

Care by Volvo is available in Canada for the S60 and V60 and the pricing is inline with US pricing when you factor in the currency difference.

https://www.volvocars.com/en-ca/shopping-tools/purchase/care-by-volvo
 
As a car guy, I can understand buying a car traditionally, sure. But for an appliance car - for you or your wife to putz around the city, buy groceries or haul kids / stuff back and forth i.e. with no sentimental value - this sounds great.

All the car guy related aside, if they can make robots that flip burgers to replace fast food workers, I don't see how they can "legislate" us (or keep on legislating us) into buying cars from a physical dealership. Service / repair only type places - sure, but the specc'ing, pricing and buying can all be handled online and save both the manufacturer and the customer $$$.

Legally speaking if Volvo didn't flake on any existing contracts, the dealerships doesn't really have a leg to stand on. Also IIRC this is the "new" Volvo under Chinese ownership and not the "old" Volvo, so depending on how they went out of business or were acquired by their new owners, the dealership's legal position is even more shaky.

If tech / the internet / robots can replace an industry, I'm not going to feel bad about it. It's going to happen to most if not all jobs / all of us going into the future. I'm just old enough to likely be getting out of the rat-race while the getting is still good :-D
 
travisty said:
One way or another dealers will die in the coming decade. Doubtful it's from direct sales like Tesla - which is so much better. It will be the move to pay-per-ride and the drastic reduction in personal vehicle ownership.
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The problem is that dealer bodies have pretty strong policial ties ($$$$ to throw at canidates) to make sure they are protected.
 
bigdogchris said:
Who the hell wants a car payment for the rest of their life? Paying cash is the only way to go.
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Not many people have $30K in hand to plop down on a new car, but I get what your saying.

If it was only $400 a month, it would be worth it, but I normally keep my car 8 years or so then replace it.
 
bigdogchris said:
Who the hell wants a car payment for the rest of their life? Paying cash is the only way to go.
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Eh... maybe. Car payment for life, yeah sure. But if it's cash vs car payments over say 5 years... probably not, depends upon the interest rates.

My wife's car (35k) they had a 0.9% for 5 years, so payments are like $600/month over 5 years I paid an extra $800 over the $35k, why didn't I pay cash ? Well I put that 35k into an investment account which gain on average about 5% per year, and that 35k turned into 44k, so I made 9k by not paying cash.
 
GT98 said:
The problem is that dealer bodies have pretty strong policial ties ($$$$ to throw at canidates) to make sure they are protected.
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Nothing can be done if people stop buying cars though. Sure dealerships might try to stop the onslaught of autonomous driving but there's no stopping that - google, uber, lift, and gm have far more capital than any number of petty dealerships.
 
travisty said:
Nothing can be done if people stop buying cars though. Sure dealerships might try to stop the onslaught of autonomous driving but there's no stopping that - google, uber, lift, and gm have far more capital than any number of petty dealerships.
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Fully Autonomous cars are a ways off..there are many issues that need to be solved so they can actually replace most cars with it. They'll make in roads in certain places were factors are limited (i.e. getting people around parking lots and the like) but you going to need a major improvement to the infstructure so these vehicles can talk and operate with one another also. This isn't going to happen in the next 5 years-more like the next 10-20 years.
 
GT98 said:
Fully Autonomous cars are a ways off..there are many issues that need to be solved so they can actually replace most cars with it. They'll make in roads in certain places were factors are limited (i.e. getting people around parking lots and the like) but you going to need a major improvement to the infstructure so these vehicles can talk and operate with one another also. This isn't going to happen in the next 5 years-more like the next 10-20 years.
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You're applying linear thinking to an exponential technology. In 10 years time it'll be laughed at to manually drive a vehicle
 
travisty said:
You're applying linear thinking to an exponential technology. In 10 years time it'll be laughed at to manually drive a vehicle
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And your drinking the coolaid if you think thats going to happen-Cars/SUVs are kept for a much longer time then any other consumer item-at least 8-10 years...its going to take years for all the non-self driving cars to be replaced.

When they can have a self driving car figure out were to park out when there is 2 foot of snow on the ground or navigate in poor weather-come back and talk to me. It will happen eventually, but we are still at least 10 years out.
 
Dealers are getting worse... Go look at my thread in the car section lol 4+ times for p0171, still not fixed, extremely slow heat 3 years finally fixed this year....

yeah dealers bring this crap on themselves with things like high pressure sales, fixed pricing, adding fair market adjustment, etc...

Go into a dealer and try to buy a car for MSRP... more often than not, you are not getting it.
 
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GT98 said:
And your drinking the coolaid if you think thats going to happen-Cars/SUVs are kept for a much longer time then any other consumer item-at least 8-10 years...its going to take years for all the non-self driving cars to be replaced.

When they can have a self driving car figure out were to park out when there is 2 foot of snow on the ground or navigate in poor weather-come back and talk to me. It will happen eventually, but we are still at least 10 years out.
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I agree on the koolaid.. there is a lot of that right now in the AI/ML field.
 
GT98 said:
And your drinking the coolaid if you think thats going to happen-Cars/SUVs are kept for a much longer time then any other consumer item-at least 8-10 years...its going to take years for all the non-self driving cars to be replaced.

When they can have a self driving car figure out were to park out when there is 2 foot of snow on the ground or navigate in poor weather-come back and talk to me. It will happen eventually, but we are still at least 10 years out.
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while the average age of a car in the US is 11.5 years, the average ownership time on a new car is just shy of 6 years at 71 months
 
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GT98 said:
And your drinking the coolaid if you think thats going to happen-Cars/SUVs are kept for a much longer time then any other consumer item-at least 8-10 years...its going to take years for all the non-self driving cars to be replaced.

When they can have a self driving car figure out were to park out when there is 2 foot of snow on the ground or navigate in poor weather-come back and talk to me. It will happen eventually, but we are still at least 10 years out.
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Not sure what hypothetical koolaid is being referenced here. I am basing my statement of history, not some belief. It's the 6D's



How long did it take for digital cameras to displace film cameras?
How long did it take for cell phones to be in everyone's pockets?

~5 years

As soon as an exponential technology reaches the point of Disruption (coming 2-3 years for autonomous driving) and Dematerialization will cause people to realize paying thousands for insurance, maintenance, and loans is just not smart for something that sits unused for 95% of the day (on average).

Cars are expensive. That's why people try to hang onto them. Guess what? Electric cars are exponential as well. Battery prices are halving at roughly 4-5 years which means in about 4 years it'll cost about 20k w/o rebates for a 200 mile range EV.

There's also the safety side. Insurance for manually driven vehicles will cost much more because fewer insurance companies will exist due to the much smaller pool and comparatively speaking humans are terrible drivers.

Before you come back saying, "But that EV hit that person". AI is an exponential technology with a doubling time of about 2 years. Something done incorrectly yesterday is trivial the next.


To your point of 2 feet of snow, no one should be driving in that at that point. I live in an area where that can happen and when a big snow is coming i just plan to stay inside. In either case GM, Tesla, and Waymo already have the ability to navigate roads that are covered in snow and lane markers are not visible.

Here's a video done over a year ago


Ford's been at it for over two years testing in Michigan


A personal anecdote (no video). I was driving in my Tesla Model 3 and it was raining. I hit a cell where it was a true downpour. I took control from autopilot just to be safe. I could barely see 10 feet ahead of me / see the lines on the road. I looked over and saw the navigation could see the car in front of me (3 car length ahead, out of my sight) and it could see the lane lines just fine. I prometly re-engaged autopilot as i was in safer hands with it.

Before you ask, no i could not pull over safely as the road is a narrow 2 line (1 lane in both directions) with no bike lane and a steep slope on the edge.
 
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Merc1138 said:
Fair enough, but damn that's still cheap. My compact Ford SUV for similar coverage here in CA is probably $120/mo, less than 12k miles a year, paid for 6 months at a time, etc.

Regarding the maintenance, you're still WAY underestimating it. Heck, even the Camry you mention, never in the shop... except you've got the time and tools to have done everything yourself? I'm not talking about bulbs and other minor stuff like a simple relay, but you cannot ignore the maintenance on your camry as costing nothing simply because you had the time and tools to deal with that. Most people don't, and time = money.

Belts, fluid changes, motor mounts, brakes(beyond pads), and you didn't mention suspension(which does raise an eyebrow) are not something people are going to be able to do for $50/mo. if they need to pay someone to do it. Hell, a set of tires for a sedan you're looking at $100 a pop plus mounting, your budget barely covers that. And it's not like you drive a Toyota I drive a Ford therefore your costs are cheaper, we're talking about wear items that NEED to be replaced on any vehicle.
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Used tyres are 15usd per wheel for me...
Bushings once in 260,00km So far and I'll do the front sway bar Bushings next they are about 20usd a pair. Front shocks and brake pads were about 300 or 400 bucks. Other than that a steering rack and a clutch. Some rust repairs at home and outside of this my 1 owner '96 xv10 Camry base model wagon 'camyoneero' would be well under any of the maintenance estimates on this thread.. But they are cockroaches and not representative of your average car. Race car. Dry sump likes 2 gallons of fancy oil every track day or so and eats slicks, but this oil is fine for the Camry afterwards so friends get cheap oil lol..
 
travisty said:
Not sure what hypothetical koolaid is being referenced here. I am basing my statement of history, not some belief. It's the 6D's


How long did it take for digital cameras to displace film cameras?
How long did it take for cell phones to be in everyone's pockets?

~5 years
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Answer me this-if this was so easy, why don't we have self flying planes (completely remove pilots from the cockpit) or self driving trains yet? Both are far easier then a self driving car to do due to more or less fixed paths they need to take and there is a hell of a lot less variables to deal with.

How are autonomous cars going to handle missing signs, road work/rerouting/etc? Its going to take years to get there.

This isn't happening in the next 10 years...maybe by the time I'm ready to retire (I'm 44 now). Even Apple pulled out of the self driving game-if it was that easy and they could make $$$ on it, they would have kept at it.

All this is just schemes for investors to spend money, just like the over promise/under deliver world of IT for the past 20-25 years.
 
GT98 said:
Answer me this-if this was so easy, why don't we have self flying planes (completely remove pilots from the cockpit) or self driving trains yet? Both are far easier then a self driving car to do due to more or less fixed paths they need to take and there is a hell of a lot less variables to deal with.

How are autonomous cars going to handle missing signs, road work/rerouting/etc? Its going to take years to get there.

This isn't happening in the next 10 years...maybe by the time I'm ready to retire (I'm 44 now). Even Apple pulled out of the self driving game-if it was that easy and they could make $$$ on it, they would have kept at it.

All this is just schemes for investors to spend money, just like the over promise/under deliver world of IT for the past 20-25 years.
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I used to think self driving was coming soon like the other posters.. then I understood it better... The minute I understood: IT CANNOT RECOGNIZE A STOPPED VEHICLE AS SOMETHING YOU WILL CRASH INTO!! Its fucked. It ain't going nowhere, ever.. and its because COMPUTERS DO NOT LEARN.
 
DukenukemX said:
I recently took my 07 Lexus IS250 to the stealership for an airbag light and they wanted something like $700 to replace the wire harness. I did a quick Google and found that the lower drivers side airbag connector tends to corrode a little and a bit of dielectric grease fixed my problem. So essentially I fixed it for free and saved myself $700. This is a Lexus dealership pulling this shit.
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Airbag repairs are not treated the same way as other electrical repairs.
smart dealerships dont half ass repairs on airbags.... and Im sure it's pretty obvious why.

so your repair may be perfectly fine, but it's certainly not gonna pass the sniff test if you crash the car and the bags fail to deploy....and if that happens to a car that wasn't repaired properly..well lets just say I wouldn't want to be the dealer on the other end of that lawsuit.
 
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