buying used games = piracy

theNoid said:
Analog media? Maybe people in third world countries. My point is that while there will always be a niche market or 'ways' to get used software, I"m just saying that within a few years most games will be distributed digitally. Whether that be available for download or playing from the cloud, its going to happen. Let us not forget this IS THE CASE today ALREADY. There are games (smaller, indy or budgeted games) that release today on Steam, on XBLA and on PSN that are only available through digital downloads. You cannot buy these games on physical media. And guess what? Consumers are lining up in droves to pay for this software.

I dont want to go off why its going to happen, just know that centralizing resources back into data centers, virtualization and cloud computing is basically where every single market is going in the next decade (if not now already). Matter of fact I would argue that the large majority of the companies most of you reading this work at are hard at work trying to find ways to get into either virtualization of servers, desktop, or applications. Pull that shit off the desktop and control and distribute from the backend. 5 guys doing the job of 50. Its cheaper, and more cost effective to centralize and control distribution, be it applications for you business, applications to the public, the cloud in general or gaming. Its going to happen primarily on your OS, no more buying and then having to install software, its all going to be cloud based, over the web.

Gaming is going to catch up, and we're living in the transitionary phase. Today we have services that people love to get boners for. Steam, Xbox Live, PSN, GOG... and even cloud services like OnLive are starting to take root. Some people choose to ignore it, others buy a few games a la carte while some outright only buy DD.

Its all a transition to where the majority of publishers are going to deliver software on their terms. Don't like it? Fine buy from other publishers. When they see all the money they're missing out on and start up, then what? Rinse repeat until you find yourself drowning in a market heavily controlled by a publishers wet dream.

No used, no rentals, no second hand market. A consumer wants a game, they pay for it. Fuck em, get a pirated copy? Tough shit, no such thing.. everything resides securely in large data centers. There is nothing to pirate, just an account to play. And unfortunately because of the way the infrastructure market is heading, the consumers aren't going to have much say or it will be too little too late. The business is going to push this transition with the goal of getting games to more people, easier, faster and with higher revenue generated.

When? Shit if I know.. but just remember you read it somewhere before it happened.
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Yup. I'm going to stop buying games when everything goes to downloadable, non-resellable, EULA'd, DRM'd content. No thanks. I'm already buying 90% less PC games than I used to, for this reason. I don't even buy a PC game now until I've googled it to see what kind of call-home-to-mommy-for-permission-DRM it includes. When consoles go to this, I'll just go back to reading and movies, and the huge backlog of older games I'd like to play, I guess.
 
GreenMonkey said:
Yup. I'm going to stop buying games when everything goes to downloadable, non-resellable, EULA'd, DRM'd content. No thanks. I'm already buying 90% less PC games than I used to, for this reason. I don't even buy a PC game now until I've googled it to see what kind of call-home-to-mommy-for-permission-DRM it includes. When consoles go to this, I'll just go back to reading and movies, and the huge backlog of older games I'd like to play, I guess.
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With the crap movies the studios keep pumping out, you may be left with only reading. I love how the companies refuse to believe people aren't spending as much money on this stuff because it's A- too expensive, and B- it's a big steaming pile. They blame it on piracy/used sales or whatever other BS they can come up with.
 
It all comes down to price.I buy games used at gamestop all the time. Especially when they have buy 2 get 1 free. Its just a matter of time before the consumer owns nothing and you're just "borrowing" the shit.
 
So let me pose this question to everyone out there supporting the fact that they should be able to resell games.

If I buy a copy of Windows 7, why can't I take it around and let 200 of my friends install and use it? If you dislike that one, then replace my 200 friends with 1 friend, who then does the same for his 1 friend, and continue til you hit 200 transfers.

I'd be doing it for a used pricepoint and then using that money to partly pay for whenever I decide to buy Windows WhateverVersionComesNext. Is this a problem, or would you guys do that? It's not like I was taking money from Microsoft, because I paid for my copy, so they already got their money.

(Note, I don't do this, but it's the same thing as reselling all your games, only with an OS instead)
 
Wizardhawk said:
So let me pose this question to everyone out there supporting the fact that they should be able to resell games.

If I buy a copy of Windows 7, why can't I take it around and let 200 of my friends install and use it? If you dislike that one, then replace my 200 friends with 1 friend, who then does the same for his 1 friend, and continue til you hit 200 transfers.

I'd be doing it for a used pricepoint and then using that money to partly pay for whenever I decide to buy Windows WhateverVersionComesNext. Is this a problem, or would you guys do that? It's not like I was taking money from Microsoft, because I paid for my copy, so they already got their money.

(Note, I don't do this, but it's the same thing as reselling all your games, only with an OS instead)
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In your example, are you uninstalling the OS when you sell it forward? Are the other 200 people uninstalling it before they sell it forward? If so, then there is still only one currently installed copy of the OS - so what's the big deal? If you aren't uninstalling it, then what you are advocating is piracy, which isn't the same thing at all.
 
It's not piracy to sell a physical object - this is complete waste of energy arguing about this topic when the producers of the games have a really simple solution already at their disposal - requiring online account activation for eacy copy of the game like Steam.
 
Good point Jaytee, I spose the only thing i'd say as far as games on disk are concerned is that the actual disk isn't what is being pirated or not, it's the code on the disk, which turns it into a grayer area.

Given how popular Steam is and how many other similar things are around/popping up, i'd imagine it won't be too long before those are the only way to PC game. Consoles probably won't go that route anywhere near as fast, but i'm sure eventually even those will just put the games up for sale on the PSN or xbox live or whatever.

Forceman, even if you did that, I think (i'm not versed in OS license stuff) that you still can't do that legally, but I really don't know for sure, so I could be making myself out as a dummy ;).
 
GreenMonkey said:
Yup. I'm going to stop buying games when everything goes to downloadable, non-resellable, EULA'd, DRM'd content. No thanks. I'm already buying 90% less PC games than I used to, for this reason. I don't even buy a PC game now until I've googled it to see what kind of call-home-to-mommy-for-permission-DRM it includes. When consoles go to this, I'll just go back to reading and movies, and the huge backlog of older games I'd like to play, I guess.
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Pretty much same here. I don't buy digital games at all. I think I have maybe 10 Steam titles. Civ IV is the only one I bought from Steam and that was because it was part of the Steam sale and cheaper than retail. Everything else I bought at retail for much less than the digital copy.

My TV and movie watching has tripled as a result. My book reading has remained the same at about 1-2 books a week also physical copies since I sell, trade, or donate them to the library when I am done.
 
JayteeBates said:
It's not piracy to sell a physical object - this is complete waste of energy arguing about this topic when the producers of the games have a really simple solution already at their disposal - requiring online account activation for eacy copy of the game like Steam.
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What does this solve though? The online activation doesn't stop people from pirating games. It still happens and then legit customers are punished on top of it all.
 
ZodaEX said:
What does this solve though? The online activation doesn't stop people from pirating games. It still happens and then legit customers are punished on top of it all.
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Piracy would be if I made copies of the original game disk and sold those copies.

Piracy IS NOT the same as a used game sale. That distinction has to be clear and within the US there is legal precedent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine). I buy a (legitimate) game disc at retail - I have the right to resell it. Neither the buyer or I are pirating during that used game sale transaction. What game company lawyers are trying to do is circumvent this law by putting language in the EULA that you don't really own what you bought blah blah. They have not yet succeded in putting that argument to a court so First-Sale doctrine still applies to the physical copy of a game disc. The massive used sections at gamestop should be a clear enough indication that used game sales are not piracy.

Now clearly, this activity of selling the physical copy of a game can easily be stopped by the game makers, simply by requiring the game to be tied to an online account in order to play (even for single player games). Steam is the obvious example.

*NOTE: I am in no way advocating they do this simply pointing out it is a tool they have at hand

So I say again this is a pointless issue to debate.
 
KatalDT said:
Yeaaaahhhhhhh! Fight on brothers!

Next up, we're going to stop some other theft. Things like selling used cars - seriously, that's just FLAT OUT STEALING from the car companies. Why do you think Chrysler went under? If every person who bought a used Chrysler instead bought the current new model, Chrysler would still be around.

USED CAR SALES ARE THEFT.

Don't even get me started on people stealing ENTIRE FREAKING HOUSES. House theft. Who'd have thought?
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Once you idiots realize that piracy isn't theft, then you'll figure out that yes, used games and used CD's and used movies give the exact end result as piracy to the developer/whatever. They get no money.

Not saying it's wrong, just saying in the perspective of the game developer, it doesn't make a lick of difference if I downloaded the game off of a torrent, or bought it from a friend, they still don't see a nickel.

The same can be said for any used market. HOWEVER, IF I COULD DOWNLOAD A FUCKING CAR FOR FREE, THEN USED CARS AND PIRACY OF CARS GIVES THE EXACT SAME RESULT TO THE MANUFACTURER. Like I said earlier, Piracy =! Theft. Buying anything used is essentially "pirating" in the eyes of the creator because they do not get a nickel, and lose a sale. That's why piracy is an issue. They claim they lose sales due to piracy. Used games also prevent more sales, so therefore the end result can be considered piracy.

Once again for everybodies sake, PIRACY ISN'T FUCKING THEFT. You're not stealing a copy. You're merely preventing the sale of whatever to whoever made it. Theft removes the item in question, and the cost to produce it is a loss. If I stole a bag of chips, the store loses however much money they purchased that bag of chips for from Lay's. If I could download a bag of chips, the original copy is still there, no store loses money, nothing happens. A potential sale is lost however as now I don't feel the need to go to the grocery store and buy a bag of chips.
 
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Shlomo said:
Once you idiots realize that piracy isn't theft, then you'll figure out that yes, used games and used CD's and used movies give the exact end result as piracy to the developer/whatever. They get no money.

Not saying it's wrong, just saying in the perspective of the game developer, it doesn't make a lick of difference if I downloaded the game off of a torrent, or bought it from a friend, they still don't see a nickel.
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Most people I know who go through the trouble to sell their games use that money to buy a game they would not be buying if they didn't have that money. Most people I know who buy used games buy them because they can't afford the games new or are simply not willing to pay $60 for the game.

In this way it's similar to piracy - every download does not equal a lot sale, and every used game sale DOES NOT equal a lost FULL PRICE SALE. That's impossible to prove, and it's completely possible to disprove.

That's why I used cars and houses as an example. In MOST cases, when somebody sells their house or car, do they spend all that money on another industry? No, it's usually spent on a new car/house (or used to replenish funds they spent on a new car/house already).
 
Atleast it helps the economy. Billions earned and circulatedto buy used games the past 30 years vs zero.
 
evilsofa said:
What's the difference between buying a used car and stealing a car as far as the car companies are concerned? Nothing.

What's the difference between buying a used book and shoplifting a book from a bookstore as far as the authors are concerned? Nothing.

What's the difference between buying a used CD and shoplifting a CD from a music store as far as the musicians are concerned? Nothing.

What's the difference between a car company, a book author, a musician and a game company? Only the game company has figured out a way to keep you from buying a used version of their product.
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This is very true and one of the reasons I have no problems at all breaking DRM on any media.
 
KarsusTG said:
This is very true and one of the reasons I have no problems at all breaking DRM on any media.
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Anything than can be built can be torn down. DRM is just a waste of money. It may prevent piracy for a matter or hours but in the end it just wastes everybody's time. (damn, where's my GTAIV disc again? *facepalm.......
 
The reason people buy used games is because you get the same product for less money. Simple economics.

So in order to fight that, publishers need to either or both of these things:
1. Make the new product more valuable the used one
2. Lower prices on games

Unfortunately, "2" will never happen. Publishers of all digital content would rather change the laws of the entire world (literally!) than to give consumers a little price break.

My personal take on the matter is that used games are actually a bit worse for developers than piracy. When someone pirates something, you can't prove that they would have paid money for it if they couldn't pirate it. However, when someone walks up to the Gamestop counter with a fistful of cash, they are proving that they would pay money.
 
Forceman said:
You forgot:

3. Make selling games illegal, or a least impossible.
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Autodesk already makes reselling used copies of at least 3DS Max illegal via its EULA. I'd gladly challenge them on this, though, since I'm backed by the excellent customer laws of the EU :)
 
evilsofa said:
What's the difference between buying a used car and stealing a car as far as the car companies are concerned? Nothing.

What's the difference between buying a used book and shoplifting a book from a bookstore as far as the authors are concerned? Nothing.

What's the difference between buying a used CD and shoplifting a CD from a music store as far as the musicians are concerned? Nothing.

What's the difference between a car company, a book author, a musician and a game company? Only the game company has figured out a way to keep you from buying a used version of their product.
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Great summary.
 
GreenMonkey said:
Great summary.
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For me the convenience of downloadable content exceeds the benefits of buying used games. Sure, when I was in high school makeing a hundred bucks a week working part time I would buy used PC games from gamestop. But honestly the benefits of never losing a disc or it getting outdated by technology by using a digital game retailer like steam is totally worth it to me. Not to mention when you grow up and get a big boy job you can afford it.
 
sugosugita said:
For me the convenience of downloadable content exceeds the benefits of buying used games. Sure, when I was in high school makeing a hundred bucks a week working part time I would buy used PC games from gamestop. But honestly the benefits of never losing a disc or it getting outdated by technology by using a digital game retailer like steam is totally worth it to me. Not to mention when you grow up and get a big boy job you can afford it.
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Mmmm, nice condescension. So polite. Did they teach you politeness in high school also? It doesn't look like it.

I've got two kids and a wife in grad school. I've got more important things to spend money on than $60 game rentals.

There's no reason we shouldn't be able to resell games like any other property. Except that this industry is slowly managing to remove that ability, and not only that, convince people that this is a good thing. :(
 
I agree with the buying used games is technically piracy, only technically. You're not buying a new copy from the maker/producer.
I see this maybe why games developers love steam so much.
 
Rossi~ said:
I agree with the buying used games is technically piracy, only technically. You're not buying a new copy from the maker/producer.
I see this maybe why games developers love steam so much.
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So I guess buying a second hand car is technically theft....seeing as you are not buying a new model from the maker/producer :rolleyes:
 
defiant007 said:
So I guess buying a second hand car is technically theft....seeing as you are not buying a new model from the maker/producer :rolleyes:
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Technically yes. Sounds retarded i know, and i would agree and say in my opinion it's not stealing but the maker/producer could most certainly think of it as stealing if they so wish. If you think about it.
It's all a bit philosophical.
 
evilsofa said:
That's counterfeiting, not piracy.
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True - please excuse my example and replace it with ripping/posting for download

It seems we are rehashing the old argument about first sale doctrine over and over. The core argument being that "used" games play just like "new" ones unlike a "used" car or appliance which will have some wear and tear versus a new one so "new" always has some benefit over used.

Publishers have the ability to require game players activate any game online and tie it to a specific account. That would essentially eliminate used game sales and also renders this argument essentially pointless.

First sale doctrine needs to stay - it has a great effect on us all. I also would go so far to say that it should apply to all software. Devs can get around that by doing the account thing or simply providing some interactive or online service that you need your own copy to get full use out of.

And with regard to the car stuff...Frankly if GM (or other maker) tried to stop used car sales they would hurt their own business. How often does someone outright buy a new car? It happens but I would propose it happens a whole lot less than someone buying a new car and trading in their used one. The dealer only accepts the used one because they can resell it. Some folks flat out refuse to buy a new car and only buy used. I would go further and put forth that this same thing happens in used game sales.
 
Considering that the company makes its profit of the initial sale subsequent sales shouldn't need to send money back to the publisher.
 
Rossi~ said:
Technically yes. Sounds retarded i know, and i would agree and say in my opinion it's not stealing but the maker/producer could most certainly think of it as stealing if they so wish. If you think about it.
It's all a bit philosophical.
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Ummm..... right. I thought about it and NO.. it isn't the same thing.

Software comes with a EULA... some of which prohibits certain things like reselling, which in my opinion is stupid and underhanded.

Automobiles don't and never will. Can you imagine always having to buy a new car? What happens when you can't sell it.. even for scrap?

In any case, even if you buy a used car, the dealers will most likely get some money from you at some point for repair parts that are dealer only parts.

Also, if selling used cars was illegal, the dealers wouldn't be able to sell them either and they would lose a lot of profit.
 
GreenMonkey said:
Mmmm, nice condescension. So polite. Did they teach you politeness in high school also? It doesn't look like it.

I've got two kids and a wife in grad school. I've got more important things to spend money on than $60 game rentals.

There's no reason we shouldn't be able to resell games like any other property. Except that this industry is slowly managing to remove that ability, and not only that, convince people that this is a good thing. :(
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Don't be a douche. We all know steam games are ridiculously cheap, sub-ten dollar range a lot of the time, so don't play your "$60 game rental" card here. Compared to console games it's absurdly cheap.
 
People have said that cars depreciate in usefulness/value over time, whereas games don't. That's just not true.

Games lose value over time. Aside of artificial value that comes from collectors (oohh original Zelda in the box with instruction manual!), older games are worth less. How much were Modern Warfare and Halo 3 when they first came out - $60? And now they are worth maybe $30. That's 50% depreciation after only a few years; games depreciate *faster* than cars. The source code might be in perfect condition but no one wants a 10 year old game.

Also, some people make it sound like the only way game companies make money is from direct sales of their games... Let's look at a popular IP, Halo:
Halo books? Check
Halo comics? Check
Halo action figures? Check
Halo soundtrack? Check
Halo anime? Check
Halo movie? Rumored - it's going to happen at some point.
Do they make money from Red vs Blue? I have no idea, but I'd guess they get a cut.
Can they license the Halo IP out to other studio's who want to make Halo games? Yes
Did I miss some other ways that they are making money off of Halo? Probably.

This isn't exclusive to games, either. Books are made into films, movies into games, etc. They all have the same advantages of having a popular IP. Again, it's only the game companies that have managed to convince people that it is acceptable to limit the resale of games.
 
grains said:
People have said that cars depreciate in usefulness/value over time, whereas games don't. That's just not true.

Games lose value over time. Aside of artificial value that comes from collectors (oohh original Zelda in the box with instruction manual!), older games are worth less. How much were Modern Warfare and Halo 3 when they first came out - $60? And now they are worth maybe $30. That's 50% depreciation after only a few years; games depreciate *faster* than cars. The source code might be in perfect condition but no one wants a 10 year old game.

Also, some people make it sound like the only way game companies make money is from direct sales of their games... Let's look at a popular IP, Halo:
Halo books? Check
Halo comics? Check
Halo action figures? Check
Halo soundtrack? Check
Halo anime? Check
Halo movie? Rumored - it's going to happen at some point.
Do they make money from Red vs Blue? I have no idea, but I'd guess they get a cut.
Can they license the Halo IP out to other studio's who want to make Halo games? Yes
Did I miss some other ways that they are making money off of Halo? Probably.

This isn't exclusive to games, either. Books are made into films, movies into games, etc. They all have the same advantages of having a popular IP. Again, it's only the game companies that have managed to convince people that it is acceptable to limit the resale of games.
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Cars do depreciate in value lol. As soon as you drive new car off the lot it immediately looses value.
 
ZodaEX said:
Cars do depreciate in value lol. As soon as you drive new car off the lot it immediately looses value.
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That's exactly what he said...

People have said that cars depreciate in usefulness/value over time, whereas games don't. That's just not true.
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Essentially saying both depreciate over time.
 
The gaming industry is simply reaping what it has sown. They're currently in a cycle of: Make shitty game -> shitty game is resold because it is a piece of shit -> cry that there aren't more new game sales.

They're missing the hidden third option, making the original purchasers not want to sell their original copy of the game by making a game worth keeping. Single playthrough, disposable software with a multiplayer half life of 1-2 months is their real problem.
 
Kueller said:
The gaming industry is simply reaping what it has sown. They're currently in a cycle of: Make shitty game -> shitty game is resold because it is a piece of shit -> cry that there aren't more new game sales.

They're missing the hidden third option, making the original purchasers not want to sell their original copy of the game by making a game worth keeping. Single playthrough, disposable software with a multiplayer half life of 1-2 months is their real problem.
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Or go with the adult option, where they realize that they aren't special, and they don't have a claim on all future transactions from a product they sell once.
 
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