Buying a new TV is driving me nuts. Help me decide and help with Refresh rates.

zamardii12

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
2,855
I don't know where else to put this so I am putting it here in the hands of my fellow [H]ardforumers. I've been looking at TVs for days and I have been finding some fantastic deals, but I keep running into the same problem when searching for them. Every time I think I find a good deal on a TV CLOSE TO 50" that is 120hz and isn't some cheap ass brand like Element or Changhong I get disappointed b/c the "Effective" refresh rate is 120hz and not the "Native." Now, I know through my research these are all marketing ploys but I am a simple person. I want a TV that will look good for movies and games. My latest disappointment is this set:

The Vizio E500i-b1

http://www.target.com/p/vizio-50-cl...-tv-black-e500i-b1/-/A-14408504#prodSlot=_1_3

Everyone from Target, to even Vizio's website says in the technical specs that it's a 120hz TV... but then I see the word Effective and I just let out a big disappointed aaaah... Everyone says that the entire E series with Vizio is 60hz natively.

So my big question is this, does it REALLY matter whether it's effective or not. When I saw that Vizio I was so happy and especially b/c I have a 10% off coupon any item in the store at Target and it'd be like $473 after discount.

I even saw a Sony at Walmart (which I also have a 10% off coupon for any item) they were selling for $350 but is a 60hz panel... but the price was so good I was like "I'll just buy it, play some games and see what I think."

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-KDL4...22596540952978869213&affillinktype=10&veh=aff

So someone clear my head a little. I want to pull the trigger on that Vizio but I really can't get myself to do it with all this Effective and Native stuff clamoring around. Right now I am gaming on a 32" 1080p TV which is small and I doubt it's 60hz and I play Destiny and Call of Duty AV just fine on it... so I am just wondering whether i'd really notice a difference or if there is a better deal I should keep a eye out on that's near 50" and is NATIVELY 120hz.
 
Last edited:

doug_7506

2[H]4U
Joined
Oct 17, 2004
Messages
3,244
The native refresh rate is what the signal input it will accept. Unless you are plugging a PC into your TV, you wont have a native source greater than 60.

There is a lot if you google about how they get these 120, 240, 600, etc numbers. In short, it doesn't really matter and don't buy a tv based on this number.
 

Pechendko

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 18, 2012
Messages
208
The 120/200/600/10000 hz on tv's is a scam. They use frame interpolation to "smooth" the motion (adding fake frames between actual frames) resulting in completely ruined cinematic experience :D in movies and an input lag in excess of 200ms.

Literally all tv's are 60hz.
 

MaZa

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
3,079
The 120/200/600/10000 hz on tv's is a scam. They use frame interpolation to "smooth" the motion (adding fake frames between actual frames) resulting in completely ruined cinematic experience :D in movies and an input lag in excess of 200ms.

Literally all tv's are 60hz.

"Cinematic experience" and stutter can burn in hell. I'll take some mild smoothing and mild artifacts over them any day. And all being 60hz is not true. If the refresh rate comes with label CMS or Motionflow or whatever the panel true refresh rate is half of that. 120 is actually 60 and 240 is 120. They just have black frame insertion to reduce blurring and hence higher hz bullshitting. Motion interpolation is a separate issue.

Now even if you have a tv with actual high hz panel (any active 3dtv basically) that does not mean it will accept 120hz input. You always have to try making custom resolution in 120hz and most of them show unknown signal error because the firmwares are too restricting on signals not part of standards. Some however do work, vizios in particular have seemed to be quite lenient on custom resolutions and refresh rates.
 

Richard Jones

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
385
Yeah they're all right, don't believe the funky 1,000,000,000 HERTZZZZZZLOL figures.

Though some of the motion interpolation and blur reduction features offered by various brands can be very enjoyable for watching either digital broadcast, BluRays etc.
Sony MotionFlow is excellent but be careful that the smaller models (under 50" size) don't feature the full array of MotionFlow options.

At minimum you got to pick a KDL-W800B (W805B in Europe) or higher p/n like W850B to have access to MF settings such as 'Clear' and 'Clear Plus'.
Clear Plus being one of the most advanced interpolation+BFI+strobing options on the market.
But again that's not something you'll use for gaming (too much lag).

From a dude with solid experience on Sony's MotionFlow;
Clear means x2 for interframe creation, x2 for black frame insertion (24p x2 x2 = 96Hz)
Clear Plus means x2 for interframe creation, x2 for black frame insertion, x2 for backlight strobing (24p x2 x2 x2 = 192Hz)
Standard means x3 for interframe creation (24p x3 = 72Hz)
Smooth means x4 for interframe creation (24p x4 = 96Hz)
Smooth also means x2 for interframe creation on 30p sources (30p x 2 = 60Hz)
That's with NTSC figures, just change with PAL 50Hz and all-in-all the maximum LCD/LED TV's can reach in practice is 192Hz/200Hz 1080 lines with processing, while being 60Hz/50Hz 300 lines from the base. This is valid for all HD models on the market AFAIK.

The W950B adds FALD but sports an IPS panel instead of VA if I remember.

Then, the new Sony 4K high-end models also rock of course, but there's quite the competition in that category: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue65js9500-201502234012.htm
Expensive lol.

Without question their most popular HD model is the W800B since it's got the advanced MF options and rocks exceptionally low lag and very good internal scaling. It's undoubtedly one of the best HD TV's for games in the 'mid-range' category.
Just indeed forget about 'native HZ' talk on one side, and 'hyperbolic-inflated HZ' on the other, it's only BS.
Before anything when choosing a TV for gaming you'd better focus on the basic motion blur performance (without active processing/motion blur reduction) and input lag, because the HZ talk won't get you anywhere near the truth.
Websites like rtings look at both real blur and lag performance, though their lag figures are a bit inflated due to the method they're using but it's not really an issue (just keep in mind over 40ms of lag can be too much even for casual gamers, under 32ms is safer) http://www.rtings.com/
 
Last edited:

Comixbooks

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
15,786
I wish I could help but staring at any Screen larger then 40" drives me nuts......
 

wye

n00b
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
12
I wish I could help but staring at any Screen larger then 40" drives me nuts......
Stay a while and listen ...
You are not alone. So are most of customers. Yet.
There is a simple one step process: watch 1080p content. THE END.
Another simple way to explain big TVs: they "shrink" as the time passes. No matter how big TV you get, after a few years you WILL think its small.

To enable yourself to benefit of these big screens, you have to watch content that is higher resolution and sit closer to the TV. To help you understand this in an easy one comparison, just think of the cinema experience. The screen is huge, much bigger than any TV you will ever have, and it uses more of your vision angle than any TV.

For details, here is an article I deeply respect and correctly describes what you need: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/visual_acuity.htm

Sitting far away from a tiny TV was OK up to 30 years ago, not because that was the perfect experience, but because of technological limitation at that time. Not anymore.
After understanding that article, you will clearly understand why even an 90 inch TV is horrendously small for 4K resolution and why we really need bigger than 150 inch TVs. Not because someone wants to sell them and there is an evil conspiracy(spoiler alert: there aren't any), but because how your eye works.

You can either resist and have it shoved on your throat 40 years later, when everyone on the planet understood and your grand children will laugh at you, or you can understand it now.

I honestly hope you click on that link and spend the time to read it, because it really helps. And it will make you join the less than 1% of people club that really understand optimal TV watching.

Cheers.

P.S. Also doug_7506 is right, there are only 60hz input TVs, unless you want to hack some input from a computer. Really. Ignore the fake refresh marketing mumbo-jumbo.
 

Ocellaris

Fully [H]
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
18,941
Stay a while and listen ...
You are not alone. So are most of customers. Yet.
There is a simple one step process: watch 1080p content. THE END.
Another simple way to explain big TVs: they "shrink" as the time passes. No matter how big TV you get, after a few years you WILL think its small.

My 46 inch looks shamefully small now. It felt huge when I got it, upgrading from a 40 inch. One of my good friends has a 60 inch and I've stared at that long enough it is starting to look small as well.

I am probably going 65 inches later this year.

Back to the refresh rate topic... I find that true 120Hz panels have slightly less blur than 60Hz panels. Doesn't matter if the input is only 60Hz, I suspect the 120Hz panels can refresh quicker.
 
Last edited:

androsforever

Weaksauce
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
112
Well I recently bought a W705b and thought that looked nice and bright but overall PQ lower than my Eizo fg2421 when taking into account the horrible motion resolution of the set. It's terrible interpolation method paled in front of the Turbo 240hz mode of the Eizo which is a strobed 120hz mode.

Now I have found a great deal on a used Panasonic 50 inch VT30 plasma. Brightness is lower than on an LCD but that is not a problem at all, since I usually turn down the excessive brightness on LCDs anyway to reach the max brightness that this display outputs not to burn my eyes out as I watch content mostly in the dark at night.

I am simply amazed by the motion control that plasma is capable off without any frame insertion methods enabled. This model has extremely low input lag for a large TV, making it ideal for gaming (around 24ms which is slightly higher than on my Eizo fg2421 with strobed enabled). The colors are extremely accurate after gamma and black level calibration while under the THX precalibrated mode.

I haven't even used the 3d feature yet as the 2d picture is so stunning, still taking it in. I can only imagine how much better the gt60 or vt60 must be compared to this, but at the price I got it for (less than my 32 inch w705b sony tv) I am extremely satisfied with the money I paid. Also I bought it with only 260 hours of use on it. The person who sold it needed a 65 inch led tv for a bright room with kids.
 

Richard Jones

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
385
There are no real 'native' 120Hz panels, contrary to monitors TV's always use interpolation to fake higher refresh rates.

A select few TV's have been confirmed to be forced to display true 120Hz though, check on blurbusters.

@androsforever; I don't know what you were expecting from the W705B because it doesn't feature any interpolation function, so of course its motion resolution is 300 line, like all normal 1080p displays.
There's only the 60Hz strobing option to artificially increase motion perception but we all know it's terrible.
 

Ocellaris

Fully [H]
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
18,941
There are no real 'native' 120Hz panels, contrary to monitors TV's always use interpolation to fake higher refresh rates.

A select few TV's have been confirmed to be forced to display true 120Hz though, check on blurbusters.

Blurbusters has almost nothing on TVs. TVs can have 120Hz panels even if they only accept 60Hz input and switch over to 120Hz mode for interpolation.

Are you claiming none of the 120Hz panels listed here are actually 120Hz?

http://www.rtings.com/info/fake-ref...otion-rate-vs-sony-motionflow-vs-lg-trumotion
 
Last edited:

Richard Jones

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
385
Yeah I know, only few sets reported and well, that's not something many people are interested in anyway.

Just further highlighting the fact that 'native' 120Hz TV's are mostly a legend anyway, since they're all build around a 50/60Hz EDID table.

You can read about that on rtings or whatever, several sites explain that even what's called 'native 120Hz/240Hz' doesn't take 120Hz inputs and interpolate/strobe to achieve simulated higher refresh rates.

Hack the few hackable or forget about gaming beyond 60Hz on TV's period.
We really need to kill that idea lol.
 

Ocellaris

Fully [H]
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
18,941
Hack the few hackable or forget about gaming beyond 60Hz on TV's period.
We really need to kill that idea lol.

The higher refresh rate panels are generally built to a higher specification level and can have better motion handling than TVs containing only 60Hz panels.
 
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Messages
606
Ok, I guess PC gamingat 120hz on a TV seems like a legitimate use case. I wasthinking of my main use case (movies/tv shows).
 

Richard Jones

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
385
@ocellaris: Well maybe if you say so, I don't know if there are really any significant physical/material properties between panels labelled '120Hz' or more besides the built-in modelines and maybe current control.

There's no 'panel' by itself, it's always an actual lcd panel + a controller board + a scaler, in reality it's more electronics and maths than anything else.

Anyway, as long as the input is locked there's no going beyond 60Hz without faking, 'high spec' or not.
 

MaZa

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
3,079
Every single 3DTV that uses active shutter glasses tech uses 120hz panel for reals. Otherwise the 3D would not work without major flicker. Two different pictures switched back and forth 120 times per second. The problem is that there was never need for TVs take in 120hz signal in (the way PC works with 3D. TVs get the second picture other way) so the firmware in most TVs simply refuse to cooperate even if there would be enough bandwidth for it and the panel would be capable of showing it.
 

elvn

2[H]4U
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
3,918
Some 4k 60hz panels are capable of accepting 120hz input in 1080p resolution mode. 1080p can also pixel double cleanly since 3840x2160 divides cleanly by 1080 so it shouldn't look muddy like most other non-native resolutions if the monitor does it correctly. This stuff depends on the model though and I don't have that information, this is just what I've heard in threads and discussions.

These charts from blurbusters.com might also help answer some of your questions. Remember that you would only get higher than 60hz output from a pc gpu, all consoles (and blu-ray players etc afaik) are 60hz output. Also be aware that interpolation does not show a more recent frame of the game world/action state. 60hz input tvs using 120hz interpolation either copies the frame or compares two frames to generate a quasi/interpolated frame between them (in traditional and cgi animation these are called "tween" frames or "tweening" between the actual set frames/cells). TV interpolation can cause the moving object(s) to look like cutouts floating across the screen at times, or a grey/object "halo", or a number of other artifacts. I think some of the "240hz" tvs are 120hz interpolation plus strobing the backlight. As someone said, interpolation can also increase input lag considerably. Most tv's have very high input lag compared to a computer monitor regardless, even if you turn all of the "enhancements" off.

In true 120hz - 144hz input (pc) gaming, you can fill up to 120 or 144 new world state/action state frames per second, providing much higher motion articulation of game world movements and your own controls. So everything moves smoother and with more detailed pathing. On a low response time gaming monitor(~1ms) it also cuts FoV movement blur by 50% (120hz) or 60% (144hz - not shown in the first chart) without using backlight strobing which would dim the picture, dulls contrast, brightness, saturation etc.





60hz input at ~1ms response time (or higher hz with more than minute ms response time)


120hz input at ~1ms response time



Edit:
. I want a TV that will look good for movies and games.
most pc monitors will look inferior for movies, most TV's are VA type lcd for deeper black levels and detail in blacks. I'm not trying to tell what to buy/what not to buy, just trying to give you info on the different technologies since you seemed confused about it a bit.
 
Last edited:

Richard Jones

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
385
Every single 3DTV that uses active shutter glasses tech uses 120hz panel for reals. Otherwise the 3D would not work without major flicker. Two different pictures switched back and forth 120 times per second. The problem is that there was never need for TVs take in 120hz signal in (the way PC works with 3D. TVs get the second picture other way) so the firmware in most TVs simply refuse to cooperate even if there would be enough bandwidth for it and the panel would be capable of showing it.

Nope MaZa, it's still 50/60Hz input processed (fdoubled) by the TV to achieve 60Hz, so not 'true' 120Hz, even if it appears as such.
Some will certainly ask 'why do you care it's the same' but it's not, this faked 120Hz can't bring the advantages of genuine 120Hz input -> 120Hz output. Frames dropped and delay, no increase in response. That's it (as explained by elvn).

It's because people keep talking about 120Hz TV or more that people still believe in it when it's not there period.

The belief of 'native 3-digit-Hz' panels is strong ('panel' is definitely used as a misleading catchall term), after all there are megatons of articles, threads and posts all over the internet full of users convinced to deal with 'native 120Hz, 240Hz, etc etc'. (check avforums it tells a lot).
It's also marketed and sold as such even as parts like on panelook, so what can we do against the power of the internetssss !!!!??? :D

Again (I know I'm wasting bytes but heh) the only TV's doing 'real/true/native' 120Hz are the ones that can be forced into doing so as explained by blurbusters (and local thread reposted by androsforever).

*sigh*
 

munkle

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Messages
11,569
Again (I know I'm wasting bytes but heh) the only TV's doing 'real/true/native' 120Hz are the ones that can be forced into doing so as explained by blurbusters (and local thread reposted by androsforever).

*sigh*

Vizio's p series will take a 120hz 1080p input signal just fine and display at 120hz, no "forcing" required.
 

Richard Jones

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
385
^ You mean 120Hz @ 1080p on 4K ? That's nice if it indeed works without forcing, was it on purpose and a listed mode in the specs, or 'accidental' ?
Might be a first anyway.
Still for a 4K TV I'd bet this is accidental as it only represents a fraction of the full resolution/bandwidth, can it be called 120Hz then ? That's maybe a grey area.
 

MaZa

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
3,079
Nope MaZa, it's still 50/60Hz input processed (fdoubled) by the TV to achieve 60Hz, so not 'true' 120Hz, even if it appears as such.
Some will certainly ask 'why do you care it's the same' but it's not, this faked 120Hz can't bring the advantages of genuine 120Hz input -> 120Hz output. Frames dropped and delay, no increase in response. That's it (as explained by elvn).

It's because people keep talking about 120Hz TV or more that people still believe in it when it's not there period.

The belief of 'native 3-digit-Hz' panels is strong ('panel' is definitely used as a misleading catchall term), after all there are megatons of articles, threads and posts all over the internet full of users convinced to deal with 'native 120Hz, 240Hz, etc etc'. (check avforums it tells a lot).
It's also marketed and sold as such even as parts like on panelook, so what can we do against the power of the internetssss !!!!??? :D

Again (I know I'm wasting bytes but heh) the only TV's doing 'real/true/native' 120Hz are the ones that can be forced into doing so as explained by blurbusters (and local thread reposted by androsforever).

*sigh*



Again, if the 3DTV would be only 60hz then the active shutter glasses would flicker in 30hz for each eye, and that would cause terrible headaches and the 3D effect would not even work. This is called page flipping or frame sequential 3D. But 3DTVs are not meant to take in page flipping 3D signal, they take frame packed or SBS/over-under signal in 24fps from Bluray player which it then processes to page flipping 120hz picture, showing one picture for each eye. This has nothing to do with motion interpolation, it really is updating the picture 120 times in second. Motion Interpolation soap opera effect is a separate feature, nothing really to do with panel refresh rate and you dont really even need 120hz for it as you know.

This is from Blurbusters site:

Some HDTVs have an undocumented ability to accept 120Hz from a PC.
Many TV’s do 120Hz internally for a different purpose (e.g. motion interpolation, active 3D). These TV’s support the dot clocks necessary for 120Hz because active shutter glasses 3D @ 60Hz (frame-sequential) use a similar dot clock frequency as 2D @ 120Hz.

It is important to note not all televisions can be forced to accept native 120Hz via external connections through refresh rate overclocking.

What this means is that some can be fooled (or maybe they have a support for page flipping 3D built-in, even though its not used in 3D blurays) into thinking they are getting fed a 3D signal and they turn into 3D mode even if they are just showing a 2D signal in 120hz. But most of the 120hz 3DTVs are not fooled and will just complain about Unknown Signal.
 
Last edited:

Richard Jones

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
385
Oh okay your point makes sense like this.
I knew 3D won't do it without 120Hz but I didn't know about the method used.

So rather than rewriting/forcing EDID, this is an 'exploit' of active 3D, but that won't work unless the system is effectively fooled.

Well...even if the method to achieve a real 120Hz>120Hz stream is different, it still requires a form of tweaking/hacking to work, and without it the set is still not 'true/real/native' 120Hz through normal use.

If it comes down to everyone's position about what the right definition of 'native' refresh rate is (direct from input or just internal for specific cases), even if it doesn't rally make sense, it's still not really good to read everywhere people and manufacturers refer to the 'native 120Hz' or higher Hz panels they own/sell.

Nobody puts the little asterix " * " leading the mention " * but you can't feed it a 120Hz signal, it's just for displaying ya movies in 3D ! ".
No surprise then that we meet so many people asking " so i've seen all those XXXHz Tv's around, which one do you recommend for 120Hz gaming ? "
 

munkle

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Messages
11,569
^ You mean 120Hz @ 1080p on 4K ? That's nice if it indeed works without forcing, was it on purpose and a listed mode in the specs, or 'accidental' ?
Might be a first anyway.
Still for a 4K TV I'd bet this is accidental as it only represents a fraction of the full resolution/bandwidth, can it be called 120Hz then ? That's maybe a grey area.

Yes 1080p @ 120hz on a 4k. Its listed as a footnote on page 14 of the manual, not accidental at all. Its hardly a fraction of the full bandwidth, 1080p @ 120hz is the same as 4k @ 30hz, its the max bandwidth hdmi 1.4 will do.
 
Last edited:
Top