Building to Building Internet with Antenna (120ft)

Discussion in 'Networking & Security' started by ymer, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. ymer

    ymer Limp Gawd

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    Hello, I'm sorry if this comes out spoonfeedish, but I have been out of the tech advances for the last 5 years and I'm turning back into a noob.

    Here's the thing, my wife's father has two apartment buildings in the same street and are within direct line of sight with no obstacles in between, the distance is between 100 and 120ft. This apartments are changing tenants constantly because it's close to a business district and most people only stay for a couple of months.

    So onto my question, the plan is to have fiber to building A and share it to building B with an antenna and in each building there will be a cable running to each apartment from a main switch/router which will have it's max speed capped so every apartment has it's own WiFi. I need a lot of help here because I need to know what to buy, I can research how to configure each thing but the amount of products and selection that is available nowadays is overwhelming.

    Short version.

    -Building A and Building B are apartment buildings.
    -Building A has fiber internet
    -Need to connect Building A to Building B with an antenna.
    -Each apartment in both buildings has to have it's own speed capped ethernet connection

    Thanks in advance for any advice.
     
  2. stormy1

    stormy1 Gawd

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    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  3. BlueLineSwinger

    BlueLineSwinger Limp Gawd

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    Is there really no way to get fiber to the second building? Seems that doing that shouldn't add too much cost to the project, and would work much better than wireless. Alternately, is there any way to run a line directly between the two locations?

    But yeah, if those aren't possible then the point-to-point wireless like the Ubiquti/etc. would work.
     
  4. ymer

    ymer Limp Gawd

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    Running any physical wire is out of the question, would be very expensive to dig and get city permits.

    Thanks for the input. The buildings have perfect line of sight with no obstacles in between at all.

    So let's say I research and settle on a frequency and an antenna, what's kind of supporting hardware do I need to make an interface from the Router's ethernet ports to the Antenna?

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Eickst

    Eickst [H]ard|Gawd

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    What's your budget?

    What's your requirement? (i.e. bandwidth, pps, etc)

    What's your skillset for networking?
     
  6. bds1904

    bds1904 Gawd

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    Put a Ubiquiti AirFiber24 on each end and you'll be golden. Be sure to turn down the transmit power on both so you get the best bitrate and 256QAM. You'll get 1.4Gb throughput easy.

    A router at the second building most likely isn't needed. Think if the wireless link as "just an Ethernet cable" and put a switch in the second building.
     
  7. wolfofone

    wolfofone Gawd

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    Indeed, the wireless is just an ethernet bridge. You would just need a switch at building B, no need to double NAT.
     
  8. Dead Parrot

    Dead Parrot Gawd

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    What is the planned speed cap for each apt? If <100mb, then the managed switch only needs to have 100mb ports for the clients with a possible Gig port for the connecting antenna. For that matter, if the desired limit is around 100mb, the 100mb switch ports themselves will limit the speed. No special capabilities needed.

    As others have said, depending on the proximity of the apts to other buildings, you will likely have channel overlap both from your WiFi and nearby buildings that provide WiFi. Might not hurt to provide a wired port as well. Let the tenant chose between wired and wireless.

    As for the point to point link, The last time I looked, there was a 900mhz option on the Ubiquiti site.
     
  9. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun [H]ard|Gawd

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    How much do you need to transmit? how fast? the distance is pretty short so you can get away with some of the Ubiquity gear fairly easily as mentioned above, I've also used microwave in these cases where distances are greater. Just not a lot of information here to work with.

    bandwidth capping is easy, just put a pfsense firewall at the point of entry and create a rule to cap their speed or to share what there is equally among all active connections (this is the better choice imo).
     
  10. ymer

    ymer Limp Gawd

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    First of all thanks everyone for the responses.

    I forgot to mention important information I only need to serve 4 apartments on building B with a max speed of 25Mbps per client, so I only need to transmit 100Mb/s between the buildings

    Budget around 1k for the wireless interface alone between the buildings, and probably 1k more for router and switches. So around 2k overall.

    Networking skillset is very limited, I don't have any formation but at home I have configured a Linux server and I was able to setup an Asus rt-n66u to access the server through different ports and the integrated VPN functions. With the right direction I can take my time to learn the skills required.

    Thanks, that AirFiber24 is definitely overkill for my needs and out of my budget, but looks very easy to use, probably there's a smaller cheaper version which is just as straightforward?

    About the routers, then i will only need 1 router and 1 managed switch, I only need 4 ports on each building. Any suggestions for this equipment under 1k?

    Yes actually I only need to transmit 100mb tops. And yes I will provide 1 wire per apartment so 4 ethernet wires on each building, then I can put an access point on each apartment so everyone has its private WiFi

    100Mb/s is what I need to transmit to building B from building A.

    Is there a Router that has the speed cap capability?
     
  11. wolfofone

    wolfofone Gawd

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    Hmm well you probably realistically only need to cap the Internet pipe, so you could probably just use the router's QoS functions to limit bandwidth by IP or perhaps more useful (since the tenants are likely to connect more than one device needing an IP and they probalby won't want to add their own router and double NAT) by VLAN. You'd need switches that support VLANs though. Just a thought heh.
     
  12. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun [H]ard|Gawd

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    Buy two of these https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...mp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B003CFATOW
    two of these https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Reverse-Weatherproof-Connector-TEW-L208/dp/B000FICJ8S
    Hook them up to two of these https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833320242

    Research the management interface to make sure it pleases you regarding traffic shaping. The firmware does come with a bandwidth limiter.

    Point those antennas right at each other and you'll easily span the distance we're talking about here while giving these very good routers all their bandwidth.
     
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  13. stormy1

    stormy1 Gawd

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    The problem isn't the distance that is nothing, the problem is interference and getting clean enough frequencies for a reliable long term link.
    You can forget 2.4. There is a chance at 5.x but these days duel band routers have became the norm. so its not as good as it once was.
     
  14. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's why I picked purely directional antennas, I use these over even longer distances at 2.4Ghz. Unless there's something specifically in between them, they
    ll work with the broadcast strength of the router I mentioned over that distance. You don't normally push 5GHz that far. Lining them up can be a PITA but they work great.
     
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  15. admiralperpetual

    admiralperpetual [H]Lite

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    I tried to convince my work to do something like this when we opened up a expansion warehouse down/across the street from the main building... was quoted something like $12,000 to run fiber.. ended up getting satelite up-link instead.
     
  16. ymer

    ymer Limp Gawd

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    Awesome man, that's as spoon fed as it gets, really appreciate it. There's no intermediate radio or "amplifier" between the router and the antenna, so I assume that I just simply remove one of the 4 integrated antennas on the router and connect the directional antenna in the now free antenna connection.

    If for some reason this setup comes up with a weak signal, can I simply look for an amplifier and hook it up between the router and antenna ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  17. admiralperpetual

    admiralperpetual [H]Lite

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    there's some good advice in the review section for the antenas as well
     
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  18. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun [H]ard|Gawd

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    The answer is yes, and as the admiral pointed out, there are people sharing their experiences in the reviews section as well.

    This is a pretty basic setup.
     
  19. bman212121

    bman212121 [H]ard|Gawd

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    I don't know how well that setup Simplyfun said would work. My main concern is because I don't know how well those ASUS handle antenna diversity. When using a parabolic dish like that, you need to have an AP that was designed for single antenna use. Those Soho devices are definitely not designed that way, and will still be trying to talk to each other over the other 3 antennas. Even if you remove the actual antennas, both of those devices are going to be picking up signals off the connectors unless you can shut down the other 3 ports.

    Also, since that dish is tuned for 2.4ghz, if it's trying to bridge using 2.4ghz, you'll only have a 65mbit link rate with 20mhz channels. You could attempt 40mhz channels, and that would net up to 130mbps link rate. Actual throughput would be ~39mbits and ~78mbits respectively. Keep in mind that's half duplex, so when you say 100mbps if you mean symmetrical, it's actually 200mbits throughput. (I would suspect it would probably still try to connect between the two at 5ghz just through brute force since the link is so close, which would help the link speeds, but I wouldn't guarantee it wouldn't give odd results doing it that way, especially with only one antenna)


    My suggestion would probably be to just try a pair of these and see what happens:

    https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-5GHz-LiteBeam-23DBI-LBE-5AC-23-US/dp/B01ANIQCE6

    As best as I can tell they are 2x2 MIMO in an all in one solution. It comes with a POE injector so you just need to get a cat 5 cable to where the antenna will be mounted, and plug it in. The other end of the cable will be plugged into a power brick inside of the building, which has another cable that you plug into your switch. If it were running N speeds, you'd have 300mbits half duplex, with an effective data rate up to ~180mbps. But this is actually AC, which AC only runs in 5ghz. So the link rate could actually go up to 867mbps giving a total bandwidth around 500mbits half duplex.

    They are way overkill power wise for that distance, but I would think they can turn down the output enough so they don't overdrive each other.
     
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  20. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun [H]ard|Gawd

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    All perfectly valid points that should damn well be considered.

    I don't the mind the Ubiquity solution either, used those once for farm house to barn to feed security cams but they already had Ubiquity infrastructure in place with poe switches, so easy call. This is also a good rec by bman1212. They spanned 150m . But - if you're in an area that's noisy for 5Ghz already, they may have issues. The solution I discussed will generally work one way or the other, the routers won't drop the parabolic in favour of former stick connections . Only done it twice with those, every situation is different. No warranty expressed or implied.

    If it works in this application the Ubiquity solution gives far better throughput. If it doesn't it won't work worth a shit no matter what you do. My solution will work at 2.4 and has a chance of forcing 5 , the 2.4 Ghz antenna will force 5Ghz at roughly 1/4 the efficiency of a proper 5Ghz antenna. Odds are a little better actually because it's directional. It's a 120 feet, same issue as Ubiquity, might work or might not at 5Ghz depending on how clean it is around there (and how clean it remains).

    I have no personal stake in this, I just hope whatever you get works for you.
     
  21. ymer

    ymer Limp Gawd

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    Man this looks exactly like the simple and cheap solution I was looking for, I think I will go with this one!
     
  22. tangoseal

    tangoseal [H]ardness Supreme

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    Airfiber by ubnt ... that will easily get job done.
     
  23. goodcooper

    goodcooper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    airfibers are for way longer distances and has way higher cost... not sure why people keep suggesting them when a couple sub $75 radios would work just fine


    i have 6 of those ac litebeams i just upgraded to from a nanostation loco m5 setup, they are crazy fast and dirt cheap
     
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  24. rma

    rma Limp Gawd

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  25. bds1904

    bds1904 Gawd

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    I suggested them before his bandwidth/budget was completely out there.

    I wouldn't completely agree that they are only for "long distance". They are pricy but they are almost always less expensive than running fiber under a parking lot.

    With the mentioned bandwidth and budget requirements I would actually recommend doing 2 separate UBNT LiteBeam links and running them inbetween 2 cheap managed switches that support LACP. This will give you link redundancy and better overall bandwidth with your multiple user use situation.

    Overkill? Possibly, but it'll leave room for growth.
     
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