Building 3-screen setup for PCIe 16x 1.0

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AoF.Squall

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I've recently received a fairly nice socket 939 motherboard, and I'm slowly building up parts for it from the awesome For Sale/Trade section. The hope is that I can build it for an exclusive iRacing system on a 3-screen setup, if the system can run it once I've got enough hardware to start testing.

For reference: the board is a Abit Fatal1ty AN8 SLi (nForce 4 board)

The main concern I have is that the PCIe slots are 1.0. What research I've done shows that this turns out to run at around 8x on a 2.0 slot and had a small impact on performance a generation ago.

The 3 possibilities and their problems I see are:
eyefinity - will it run on my 1.0 slots?
vision surround - same question. (and a few more I'll throw at the end)
SoftTH - I seem to remember reading about iRacing updates occasionally breaking compatibility

I'd prefer to run eyefinity or vision surround for the simplicity and reliability, but I'm not sure if either would work on my system setup. And some additional questions about Nvidia's surround: does SLi use both video cards, and if so do both cards pool the ram? I'm under the impression lots of vram is needed for the massive resolutions of a 3-screen setup.
 
Yeah, no matter what route you take you're going to need new hardware top to bottom. The 939 just won't have the power to drive either Eyefinity or Surround.

As for nVidia Surround it HAS to have 2 GPUs and can work with up to 3. It's simply an variation of SLI alternate frame rendering. Each card renders a screen in a 3 card setup and with 2 cards one card will have to render two screens per frame, thus more VRAM. VRAM should be less of an issue with 3 cards since with a 3 card setup each card only has to render a single screen but I'm no expert. PCPerspective has a good read on this in their Surround review.
 
I'm not exactly sure how a 939 chipset would be limited beyond the bandwidth of the PCIe slot. The FSB is a bit low, but it's not being built for serious next-gen gaming. The most intense thing to worry about is realtime shadows. A computer that can run WoW decently should be able to run most race sims. Maybe there's another limitation here I'm not considering? Would the low FSB basically keep either manufacturer solution from working?

I can see how Surround might be board limited since both cards would need more bandwidth to communicate with each other, although maybe an SLI bridge would help this, and actually be better than a single-card Eyefinity solution. At the very least, I can dig up some older cards for SoftTH if other methods are a pipe dream.
 
The problem is that you simply don't have enough CPU power, period. I remember going from a 939 Athlon X2 4800+ with an 8800 Ultra and moving that SAME card to a retail off the shelf Acer Q6600 desktop that I only upgraded the power supply on. The Q6600 system CRUSHED that 4800+. It was a night and day difference the most remarkable CPU I've EVER done for performance across the board. The reason I got that Q6600 system because the first Dirt game back in 2007 ran very poorly on that 4800+ at 1680x1050 even with an 8800 Ultra and that just wasn't supposed to happen.

I'm sure there are some bandwith issues but the heart of the problem is simply that that CPU is just not capbable of doing what you want.
 
I think you may be reading the question differently. I'm not to worried about how well the game will run, I can test that before hand. Games like Dirt are a lot more high-end than this will be running. This is strictly for sims, everything else will be on my gaming pc. I was playing these games on a much slower Pentium 4 and a video card I can't even remember (6800GTS? AGP, at any rate), so I expect them to be playable.

What I'm wondering is if Eyefinity and/or Vision Surround will be 100% inoperable due to my technical limitations, now how my performance will be.
 
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Ok, so you want this to be a standalone simulator, ok got it now. I might have to try this out, I have a Momo. Thanks!

But looking at what they are saying the 939 is actually older, more than three years. And the overhead of multi-monitor, hmmm. If all you have is the motherboard you might want to try going to a Socket 775 system. That is a considerably more powerful platform and it won't cost you a lot, I don't see it costing really any more than an 939 setup other than having of course snag another motherboard.
 
I was given the motherboard and processor, but I am upgrading the processor. Even if this system isn't quite up to snuff for sims I'll use it as my new mame machine.

I'll start doing some 775 window shopping. My primary machine is a 775, so it would definitely make going back & forth on parts a lot easier.
 
16x pcie 1.0 slots = 8x pcie 2.0 slots. and the performance difference is usually less than 5%. If you are just playing the sims on it, I wouldn't bother going with a high end video card. A 5770 will suit you just fine. Now can you do eyefinity with that? Technically yes... but your cpu will sputter and I don't think the 5770 will do eyefinity very well unless you put graphics on low, which will make the game look bad.

So in short, don't attempt eyefinity/surround on anything other than your main 775 rig. Leave your 939 system for SINGLE monitor sims as you previously stated.
 
For iRacing it may be fine, but overkill with most of the mid-range and higher cards. The system requirements are low and it's online, for those who haven't seen it. http://www.iracing.com/membership/system-requirements/

You could probably get away with lower end cards for EyeFinity, that's if iRacing works with those resolutions. That's a big consideration.
 
The short answer is that you will be probably be able to get away with it. There is a difference between 8x and 16x PCI-E 2.0 on modern cards in my own anecdotal testing, but that game shouldn't be pushing the hardware to the extent it will be noticeable.
 
The iRacing said most computers in the last couple of years will run fine. 939 is 5 years old and so outclassed by Core 2 775 that it just ain't worth it.
 
The performance of the machine isn't in question. I've got a 9800GTX that I'm going to test when I get everything I need, and if that runs I'll start looking for video cards.

Thanks for the responses, it's starting to sound like all the methods should work.
 
heatlesssun said:
The problem is that you simply don't have enough CPU power, period. I remember going from a 939 Athlon X2 4800+ with an 8800 Ultra and moving that SAME card to a retail off the shelf Acer Q6600 desktop that I only upgraded the power supply on. The Q6600 system CRUSHED that 4800+. It was a night and day difference the most remarkable CPU I've EVER done for performance across the board. The reason I got that Q6600 system because the first Dirt game back in 2007 ran very poorly on that 4800+ at 1680x1050 even with an 8800 Ultra and that just wasn't supposed to happen.

I'm sure there are some bandwith issues but the heart of the problem is simply that that CPU is just not capbable of doing what you want.
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Yep, you'd be horribly HORRIBLY bottlenecked by your CPU. You need a newer board and processor if you intend to play any other modern games, especially at eyefinity and surrond resolutions
 
Honestly you can probably get away with a 5770 for that setup in eyefinity. What's the resolution of each display?
 
I don't have the displays yet, I'm not going to worry about that until I have tested the system on a single monitor. I'm considering running a 1920x1200 and 2 1600x1200 monitors, for a 5120x1200 total.

It all depends on test results and whatever seems to be the best size to price ratio I can manage. I already have a 1920x1200 monitor I could use, though.
 
If you have the money for 3 screens, I don't see why you can't shoot for at least a Socket 775. Let alone a P2 X4 or Core i5 750 build
 
Because 3 used monitors should make up 80% of my budget? Not all of us can throw money at their computers, and I tend to keep mine in active use for quite a long time. This is something that's been in planning for a couple years, and only just now made possible because of some donated parts.

Also, if I spend over $600, which a built-from-scratch 775 3-monitor setup would probably cost, that's how much it would cost for entry to an actual race. That's a mental barrier I've got, it's got to be cheaper than going to the track or else I'd rather do the real thing. Not to mention, I'd probably upgrade my gaming rig if I was going to look into a bigger budget.
 
AoF.Squall said:
I don't have the displays yet, I'm not going to worry about that until I have tested the system on a single monitor. I'm considering running a 1920x1200 and 2 1600x1200 monitors, for a 5120x1200 total.

It all depends on test results and whatever seems to be the best size to price ratio I can manage. I already have a 1920x1200 monitor I could use, though.
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Careful. Last time I checked mixing resolutions was a big no-no for eyefinity. Don't know about nvSurround.

SofTH should be fine mixing though.
 
I hadn't thought about that being an issue as long as the vertical resolution is the same...
Thanks, I'm definitely going to do some research on that point and keep that in consideration.

EDIT: and from the archives, looks like confirmation: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1464072
I would imagine it wouldn't be hard for AMD to add support, but there couldn't be more than a handful of people who need it due to widescreens being 99% of the market.
 
There's a couple things here you have to consider:

1) 3x1920x1200 will be quite taxing even for a 5770 in iracing I imagine. I'm no expert on iracing, but 3x1920x1200 isn't trivial in any game especially with such a budget build.

2) 1920x1200 screens may be relatively pricey. It looks like you're on a tight budget so maybe the most *efficient* screens may be the best idea (something like 21" 1600x900 screens). Can't be too picky if your budget is tight.

3) You'll probably have to consider a VGA-DP adapter for eyefinity if you go that route because it's unlikely that your screens will be native DP since from the way it looks you're buying everything secondhand. I would do some research on this since it's a hit or miss with these adapters.

By the way, what is your gaming rig right now?

Careful. Last time I checked mixing resolutions was a big no-no for eyefinity. Don't know about nvSurround.

SofTH should be fine mixing though.
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It's also a no go for nvSurround. If you're interested in seeing if softTH is a better solution I'd head over to widescreengamingforums.com and poke around there.
 
Yeah, a 939 system just won't be up to feeding a graphics card capable of running 3 displays.

The fastest 939 processor is the FX-60, which is about the same as a 5400+ AM2 dual core.

The min. video card to run 3 displays decently would be a HD5850, and the FX-60 (if that is what the OP has) will bottleneck a HD5770 by about 20% or more.

Honestly, at least an AM2+ system is needed (from AMD tech) to feed the video card enough data to play on 3 displays.


So yeah, if you don't have an FX-60 and are running a 4400+ X2, do remember these processors are 4-5 years old.

It will serve you well with 3 monitors in 2D only, and/or running it as a MAME machine.

Any 3D stuff though, you can kiss goodbye, it just isn't powerful enough.
 
There was one or two 3-display solutions back in the heyday of the 939, I've always been eyeballing them.

And to Intel_Hydralisk, the added cost of the adapter is my primary reason for considering solutions other than an AMD 5000 series... And my primary system is a C2Q Q6700 with a 9800GTX.
 
AoF.Squall said:
I don't have the displays yet, I'm not going to worry about that until I have tested the system on a single monitor. I'm considering running a 1920x1200 and 2 1600x1200 monitors, for a 5120x1200 total.

It all depends on test results and whatever seems to be the best size to price ratio I can manage. I already have a 1920x1200 monitor I could use, though.
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If you intend to use nvsurround or eyefinity make sure ALL your monitors run the same resolution. With mismatching monitors you will have to resort to SoftTH and your video won't be hardware accelerated by your video card drivers.
 
AoF.Squall said:
Because 3 used monitors should make up 80% of my budget? Not all of us can throw money at their computers, and I tend to keep mine in active use for quite a long time. This is something that's been in planning for a couple years, and only just now made possible because of some donated parts.

Also, if I spend over $600, which a built-from-scratch 775 3-monitor setup would probably cost, that's how much it would cost for entry to an actual race. That's a mental barrier I've got, it's got to be cheaper than going to the track or else I'd rather do the real thing. Not to mention, I'd probably upgrade my gaming rig if I was going to look into a bigger budget.
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Maybe you should refocus your efforts then. My 939 was struggling on a 8800 GTS 512 @ 1280x1024. I did even feel a boost over my 7900 GT SLI setup. I went to a E8400 and my performance went through the roof.

You're looking to get both a under powered video card and CPU for a 3 monitor setup.

Go for a decent setup with a 24 inch monitor. Save up and get more monitors later. You're just going to disappoint yourself with this build your trying to do currently for a 3 monitor setup.

Check this review out http://hardocp.com/article/2010/01/05/amds_ati_radeon_eyefinity_performance_review/1. You can see how underpowered a 5770 is even with a modern setup.
 
I'm just a little confused on why some of you are arguing that my old equipment is old; I'm aware of the performance limitations of older hardware, especially since it's going to be used for older games. I'm still going to build the system, I have uses even if it doesn't perform for iRacing, and I'll know how well it runs before I buy video cards or monitors.

Pretend that this will run what I'm going to throw at it. I'm only wondering about the physical limitations of the system, what would be the best way to run multiple monitors.

A few people have given me some great answers, though! I'm starting to get a better grip on what's the better route. I'm leaning towards SoftTH at the moment.
 
evileye said:
Careful. Last time I checked mixing resolutions was a big no-no for eyefinity. Don't know about nvSurround.

SofTH should be fine mixing though.
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I'm using 2 1920x1080 and 1 1680x1050. Eyefinity works for me.

Here's exactly how the PCIE bandwidth affects performance (you already know 16x 1.0 is equivalent to 8x 2.0)
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_5870_PCI-Express_Scaling
There was a 2% performance drop overall going from 16x 2.0 to 8x 2.0 with a 5870.
 
Dude iRacing's requirements are low. A 5770 should handle it fine in Eyefinity even at 3x1920x1200. I can run modern games like BFBC2 on medium settings on a 5770 Eyefinity set up so I'm sure you can run iRacing fine on that card. And you already know a slower CPU can handle it so upgrading the resolution isn't going to be much harder on your CPU. Everyone saying you need completely new for this goal or that the CPU can't handle games thinks you're playing Metro 2033 or something.

The only problem is the nForce 4 chipsets don't particularly play well with PCI 2.0 cards. It's a gamble but I've seen many posts saying they couldn't get their nForce 4 chipsets to boot Radeon 5xxx cards properly. In theory a PCI 1.0 slot should work fine with a PCI 2.0 card but nForce 4 is just finicky. Otherwise bandwidth wouldn't be a problem.

People have been SoftTH'ing iRacing on less than a 5770 for a while. I don't know why iRacing doesn't have a demo cuz I wouldn't mind checking it out myself and I could then let you know how the 5770 handles it too.
 
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AoF.Squall said:
There was one or two 3-display solutions back in the heyday of the 939, I've always been eyeballing them.

And to Intel_Hydralisk, the added cost of the adapter is my primary reason for considering solutions other than an AMD 5000 series... And my primary system is a C2Q Q6700 with a 9800GTX.
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Yeah, but the games back then were Doom 3 and Half Life 2. Those will easily run on a 939 with 3 monitors with even a HD5650.

However, you are looking to play modern games on it, it just isn't capable.

As the others said, focus more on a newer setup and save your money for future monitors.

btw, the 3 display solutions back then were the Matrox Triple/Dual Head adapter. Works well even now, but again, it was meant for 2005/2004 games, not 2008-present.
 
noquarter said:
Dude iRacing's requirements are low. A 5770 should handle it fine in Eyefinity even at 3x1920x1200. I can run modern games like BFBC2 on medium settings on a 5770 Eyefinity set up so I'm sure you can run iRacing fine on that card. And you already know a slower CPU can handle it so upgrading the resolution isn't going to be much harder on your CPU. Everyone saying you need completely new for this goal or that the CPU can't handle games thinks you're playing Metro 2033 or something.

The only problem is the nForce 4 chipsets don't particularly play well with PCI 2.0 cards. It's a gamble but I've seen many posts saying they couldn't get their nForce 4 chipsets to boot Radeon 5xxx cards properly. In theory a PCI 1.0 slot should work fine with a PCI 2.0 card but nForce 4 is just finicky. Otherwise bandwidth wouldn't be a problem.

People have been SoftTH'ing iRacing on less than a 5770 for a while. I don't know why iRacing doesn't have a demo cuz I wouldn't mind checking it out myself and I could then let you know how the 5770 handles it too.
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The nForce 4 chipset play fine with 2.0 cards, they just run at 1.0 speeds.

No, a 939 processor will severely decrease his performance.

iRacing might run ok, but those who have been using SoftTH have had triple and quad core CPUs, not dual core 939s.

It's going to be a waste of time and money for the OP to make this system when the game is going to run at 20, maybe 25fps if he is lucky with low settings.
 
It's not a waste of time, because if it doesn't work then it becomes my new mame machine. Either way, success. And I have never said I was going to run newer games; in fact, I've said the opposite. Games like Richard Burns Rally launched in 2004, while GTR and rFactor were 2005.

I have done some more research since coming home from work, and there are multiple people running iRacing on much slower 939 processors with 3-screen SoftTH setups, so not only has it already been proven to work, but it's worked with much lower hardware. Now can we stop trying to sell me stuff?

Thanks to those who are taking the time to answer my question, it's been really helpful.
 
Red Falcon said:
The nForce 4 chipset play fine with 2.0 cards, they just run at 1.0 speeds.
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In theory, yes, but there are lots of reported problems trying to run a 2.0 card on the nForce4 chipset because the chipset fails to properly respond to the video card's auto negotiation request and resolve at 1.0 speeds. This turned up a lot more with Radeon 5xxx cards. I believe you can bios mod the video card to force it to 1.0 speeds so the negotiation doesn't fail but that's not something I'm certain of, and a few people had success with some beta BIOS for the mobo on request from manufacturer (ASUS only one I heard of) but mostly not.

I'm not saying it won't work, it should and hopefully will, but there's a chance it won't because the nForce4 chipset has more problems with the forward compatibility than it should.

No, a 939 processor will severely decrease his performance.

iRacing might run ok, but those who have been using SoftTH have had triple and quad core CPUs, not dual core 939s.
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CPU has little effect on resolution, that aspect is 95% dependent on video card speed. SoftTH does require a lot of bus bandwidth of course but a single card will not be nearly as bottlenecked by the slower bus speeds as a SoftTH setup would. And people have been running SoftTH and TH2Go on systems you guys would laugh at.

I even ran Eyefinity on my old Athlon X2 5200+ and the CPU was the same bottleneck at 1920x1080 as 5760x1080. As in, I got 26 fps at any resolution. But that's because I was playing newer more CPU demanding games. The resolution didn't lower my fps because 5760x1080 requires almost nothing more from the CPU than 1920x1080 does. Point is if your CPU is capable of 60 fps in a game it will put out 60 fps at 640x480 or 5760x1200 the rest is up to the GPU. If he's playing 5 or 6 year old games his CPU should be fine.
 
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Ualdayan said:
When in Eyefinity mode it's 5040x1050.
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Right which is what you'd have to do if you have monitors with mixed native resolutions - force each one to the same resolution which isn't optimal if they have different native resolutions. The point being made earlier is that you can't do an eyefinity span of different resolutions, each monitor still has to run at the same resolution.
 
I do understand not wanting to spend a lot of money but since the only 939 part you had was the mobo I was thinking just go to 775 because its such a HUGE jump in performance, maybe the biggest one I've ever seen really and if you have to spend some money anyway, why not spend a little more now to give the system more life. In the end it could be cheaper.
 
heatlesssun said:
I do understand not wanting to spend a lot of money but since the only 939 part you had was the mobo I was thinking just go to 775 because its such a HUGE jump in performance, maybe the biggest one I've ever seen really and if you have to spend some money anyway, why not spend a little more now to give the system more life. In the end it could be cheaper.
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I don't think he's trying to give the system more life though, he just wants it to play 2 or 3 specific games and those specific games shouldn't require a complete overhaul.
 
After some of the comments on eyefinity requiring the same resolution on 3 monitors (and the possible nForce issues w/ 2.0 cards), I'm thinking I would be much better served by going a softTH route. 2 of the monitors are going to be 4:3.

Thanks for the input, I'll see what kind of framerates this thing will churn out at the end of next week.
 
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