Budget Dual-Core Workstation

S

Stuh505

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 15, 2004
Messages
488
As of now, I use a 2.26 GHz P4 with 512 MB RAM and an AGP GeForce 4 Ti 4200 (64 MB) card.

I use my computer primarily for 3d modelling and rendering, and it works...but I would like to increase performance, mainly rendering performance and responsiveness in opengl of large scenes.

I'm planning to get a new processor, motherboard, more ram, and possibly new video card...with emphasis on lots of RAM and a good processor.

My requirements for myself so far are:

Processor Reqs
* 2x 64KB L1 cache
* 2x 1 MB L2 cache
* 2.2 GHz clock speed
* Dual-Core
* 64 bit
* Max of $600

Motherboard Reqs
* 4x USB ports
- 4 GB memory support
- 1 AGP slot (for GeForce 4)
- Fits processor Socket type
- Dual-Core compatible
* As long as it has 4 USB ports and is compatible with everything without causing a bottleneck, I am happy
* Price range: like to spend $80, absolute max of $200

Memory Reqs
* 4 GB DDR
* Approx $400 total
* Quantity is much more important than quality, since I don't want to go over my price limit and chances are I will still not have enough RAM and will end up using virtual memory, and that's going to make a much bigger difference than the speed diff between the newest kind of RAM.

Video Card
* Under $200
* Be able to display significantly more vertices/faces than my current card
* Any other special features useful for games etc are irrelevent to me

So, I am considering:

1) $570 AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ Toledo 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Dual Core
2) Can't find a motherboard that meets requirements
3) $74 eVGA 256-A8-N341-LX Geforce 6200 256MB DDR AGP 4X/8X Video Card
4) Memory dependent on motherboard

What do you think about my choices?
How much improvement can I expect from this video card?
Any suggestions for a motherboard?

Thanks!
 
Forget AGP and go PCI-E That opens up some really good boards, such as this MSI motherboard for $85. And get a cheap 6600 with 256mb mem like this one.

EDIT**

Do you have a total price your looking to keep under? It would make things easier for some of us to(for lack of a better word) cut corners here and there. And are you going to need a new case, cd-rom, that sort of thing. Id say at the least your gonna need a new PSU. With the X2, 6600, the MSI and 4G Adata ram came to $1150 at Newegg.
 
Questions for the OP:

1.) What is your total budget?
2.) Why pair up an AGP GF4 with dual core goodness?
3.) Do you use striclty software based rendering (IE, a viewport)? ...Will help answer #2.
4.) Is 1MB L2 cache per core an absolute necessity?
5.) Do you currently own a power supply with a strong +12V rail(s) output?
6.) What's the max cpu and amount of RAM your current mobo can take?
7.) Have you weighed the pros and cons of upgrading components in #6 and getting a Quadro?

Thanks.
 
My case, monitor, drives, etc I can all keep.
I just read this:

"If you move from 32 to 64 bit, you basically need to at least double your memory. 2 gigs in 64 bit is the equivalent of a gig of RAM on a 32bit machine. That's because you're dealing with chunks that are twice the size… if you try to make do with what you've got you'll see less performance. But RAM is now so cheap, it's hardly an issue." -- Nigel Page, Microsoft, Aug 31/05

The 2 things that are important are opengl display of large scenes(hardware render), and software render (ram/cpu) of scenes. So, now that I think about it, perhaps it would be a better route to simply get a Quadro and bump myself up to 4 GB of ram while keeping it at 32 bit.

My motherboard only has 2 RAM slots so I would need a new one.

I could spend $1000-1200
 
Well, the benefit of an A64 is that you can run a pure 32-bit OS on it, thus negating the requirements for double the RAM as stated by that guy from MS. He was probably stating the need for it with a pure 64-bit cpu, like the Itanium/Itanium2.

If your current processor is fast enough for you, then I'd suggest you max out the memory on your current motherboard and get a gpu tailored for rendering, like a Quadro (superior in OpenGL performance vs. the FireGL line). This will give you the best performance boost in rendering apps. 4GB of RAM should do nicely, if your system can hold it.
 
Well, the benefit of an A64 is that you can run a pure 32-bit OS on it, thus negating the requirements for double the RAM as stated by that guy from MS. He was probably stating the need for it with a pure 64-bit cpu, like the Itanium/Itanium2.
Click to expand...

If you run a pure 32 bit OS meaning that it cannot run 64 bit apps, then wouldnt that mean it also is not able to index more than 4 GB memory?

My current motherboard probably does not have PCI x16 needed for Quadro (dont know how to check though). It also only has 2 memory slots, and I think they can only be 512...so I will need a new mobo.

What do you think of this:

$590 Quadro FX 1300 (PCI Express x16)

$74 ASUS P5GL-MX Socket T (LGA 775) Intel 915GL Micro ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

CPU Type: Intel Pentium 4/Celeron
DDR Standard: DDR 400 (PC 3200)
Dual Channel Supported: Yes
FSB: 800/533MHz
Maximum Memory Supported: 4GB
Number of DDR Slots: 4x 184pin DDR
PCI Express x16: 1
PCI Slots: 3
South Bridge: Intel ICH6
Supported CPU Technologies: Hyper-Threading Technology

Model #: P5GL-MX
Item #: N82E16813131543

+ 4x 184pin DDR @ approx $400 total

This is a grand total of about $1075
 
You are correct, it will not be able to access more than 4GB of RAM (for 32-bit MS Windows).

The card you picked will fly! But keep in mind that even an older AGP Quadro4 series will smoke your GF4 in rendering apps, so you may not even need a higher end PCI-e part.

The motherboard you've chosen raises a question: You will need a cpu that will fit in that Socket T. Have you thought about maybe getting a new board for your current CPU that will allow for more RAM, like this one? It has plenty of USB ports (8 total).

And RAM should be no issue at all, as it's fairly cheap even for some fairly good stuff. 4 of these or 2 of these. I suggest the Crucial route.

If you can find an AGP QuadroFX 500, you should be pretty well set.
 
Deja,

1) The reason I was looking at the more expensive 1300 Workstation card was because my current card already has 64 MB ram and my understanding was that this is the most important number. I dont want to get something thats completely obsolete in a few years, I want it to still be good...so if I get a 128 or 256 its probably going to last longer.

So if I can buy a really good one, and then slowly upgrade my other components over time, I could still end up with a great machine.

http://cgi.ebay.com/PNY-NVIDIA-Quad...237887952QQcategoryZ64481QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

edit: and I can find it new for only $540
http://www.hypermicro.com/product.asp?pf_id=VDPN110
Click to expand...

But some places I look, it costs >$1000....and the lower end 1300s often cost more. Why is this?

Is there some reason why this is a trick purchase? Price looks too low, and lots of people have declined it...

2) Can't I just enable PAE in the bios allowing me to have up to 32 GB ram?

3) Yeah, I was thinking of my existing processor. Thanks for pointing out that differences in the motherboard sockets
 
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Go back to your original A64 spec sheet (that was a good spec). Change the motherboard for a PCIe one (AGP will not last very much longer, and you stated you wanted to avoid instant obsolescence).

If you decide to keep your existing stuff, ditch the power supply for a decent one (modern graphics and cpus require higher quality power).

PAE will raise the addressable space, but not to 32GB (I think - more like 3.2!)
 
Go back to your original A64 spec sheet (that was a good spec). Change the motherboard for a PCIe one (AGP will not last very much longer, and you stated you wanted to avoid instant obsolescence).
Click to expand...

What is your logic behind this? All I really care about is hardware and software rendering of large scenes...so I think RAM and Video card RAM / verts per sec / fill rate are the 3 most important overall features.

I can either go with a 64 bit dual core, crappy GPU, and 4 GB ram (that only counts as 2 GB because its 64 bit) and none of my apps use 64 bit anyway.

OR

I could keep single processor, and have 4 GB actual ram and have a GPU that has all the same specs as the Quadro FX 4400. Sine ram is used for software rendering and GPU is used for hardware rendering, it seems like this covers both of the issues I want to address....whereas the other option costs more and would be worse at hardware ANd worse at software rendering than this setup.


PAE will raise the addressable space, but not to 32GB (I think - more like 3.2!)
Click to expand...

Are you sure?

However, Windows Server 2003, Enterprise Edition supports 32 GB of physical RAM and Windows Server 2003, Datacenter Edition supports 64 GB of physical RAM using the PAE feature.
Click to expand...
-- Microsoft

Using the Quadro, I would have the same fill rate, vert/sec, memory bandwidth, and ram of the Quadro FX 4400....thats a HUGE increase over the Quadro 1300.
 
Stuh505 said:
Deja,

1) The reason I was looking at the more expensive 1300 Workstation card was because my current card already has 64 MB ram and my understanding was that this is the most important number. I dont want to get something thats completely obsolete in a few years, I want it to still be good...so if I get a 128 or 256 its probably going to last longer.

So if I can buy a really good one, and then slowly upgrade my other components over time, I could still end up with a great machine.

http://cgi.ebay.com/PNY-NVIDIA-Quadro-FX-3000-Pro-256-DDR-FX3000-VIDEO-CARD_W0QQitemZ5237887952QQcategoryZ64481QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

edit: and I can find it new for only $540


But some places I look, it costs >$1000....and the lower end 1300s often cost more. Why is this?

Is there some reason why this is a trick purchase? Price looks too low, and lots of people have declined it...

2) Can't I just enable PAE in the bios allowing me to have up to 32 GB ram?

3) Yeah, I was thinking of my existing processor. Thanks for pointing out that differences in the motherboard sockets
Click to expand...
1.) 128MB should be okay, but you may be right in thinking the 256mb card would be better for rendering large scenes with a lot of textures. I think maybe the price difference has to do with AGP vs. PCI-e perhaps (popularity + supply & demand)?

2.) Even if you enable the PAE function, you still need an OS that will support that much memory (like Server 2003). You will also need a motherboard that can hold that much memory. Current motherboards for desktop cpus are usually limited to 4GB. You'll have to move into a Xeon or Opteron platform to break past that limitation = expensive.

3.) Glad to help out with the details.

If you were wanting to spend around $1000 for a whole upgrade, then how about this:

1. EPoX EP-9NPA+ Ultra $95 at Newegg
2. Memory - choose from what was linked before, unless you can find a good brand at a really good price. Don't worry about the speed being above PC3200, since this is a workstation and you shouldn't be overclocking ;) $375-$425 total.
3. X2 3800+ dual core $360.50 at ewiz
4. Quadro 1300 or 1400 if you can find it cheap, otherwise a 540 should also be fine. $200-$500

So, the total comes out to approx $830 to $1180. That will get you a dual core cpu, an decent nForce4 Ultra motherboard, 4GB of RAM, and a PCI-e Quadro card.

Here's some results with both a Mobile FX 1400 and a 7800GTX.
 
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For CAD and orther Rendering Programs The Athlon64 and Dual CPU machines reign supreme (this includes Dual Core).

I did Notice this card Quadro PCI-E 3400 (think it is the 6800GTs big brother)

Memory is also your friend but unless ypu are using very specific server programs or a non-windows related O/S then chances are nothing will ever be allowed to touch the memory exceeding 3GB let alone more then 4GB. So Pick an amount of memory for the system and buy what you can. You will be looking at about 460 for 4GB and 230 for 2GB.

Any PCI-E Nforce 4 board will work with this so you can find just about any board with everything but the AGP (because it won't be needed) for $80-$90

You Pretty much stated inyou earlier post your Looking at a 4400+ (the only thing that hits your specs to a tee) So pick one up (Igot mine from Newegg for 560).

If you Go with 2GB of Ram your looking at abot $1300-$1400 for everything as long as you can use all the other devices from your computer. That would be a kicken rendering machine for 1300-1400.
 
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Terr0r said:
erm

you mean $360? BIG difference, hell i'd get the 3800 for 160 ANY day. And buy get i mean buy the store out
Click to expand...
YIKES!!! Now that's what I call a serious typo!

Original post edited.....
 
Stuh505 said:
I can either go with a 64 bit dual core, crappy GPU, and 4 GB ram (that only counts as 2 GB because its 64 bit) and none of my apps use 64 bit anyway.
Click to expand...
This is only the case when you install a 64-bit OS on it. If you install a 32-bit Windows XP, ram requirements will be the same as what you have now, you'll have dual core for software rendering. Also, you'll have a CPU that runs cooler, and isnt bottlenecked by the FSB due to the on-die memory controller+HTT. Also, in your place, I would look into something along the lines of a bios flash of a 6-series card to a Quadro, or using Quadro drivers on the much cheaper 6-series card.
 
This is only the case when you install a 64-bit OS on it. If you install a 32-bit Windows XP, ram requirements will be the same as what you have now, you'll have dual core for software rendering. Also, you'll have a CPU that runs cooler, and isnt bottlenecked by the FSB due to the on-die memory controller+HTT. Also, in your place, I would look into something along the lines of a bios flash of a 6-series card to a Quadro, or using Quadro drivers on the much cheaper 6-series card.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on the GPU issue. I am pretty much convinced now that I will get a GeForce 6800 Ultra...and see if I can mod it to act like a Quadro. If I can't, no big deal...because I don't need fancy viewport settings, and I'm sure that although the GeForce is "tuned" for games rather than workstation things, all I will really care about is displaying lots of wireframed models. The only possible issue is I think that the Quadro's hardware AA would do a better job if I want to run AA in my viewports. Still, I am pretty sure that having 4 times as much chip memory and way higher all around specs will more than compensate for any lack of driver tuning. The other great thing about this card is that pretty much no matter what changes I decide to make to my system in the future, I can always use this card...and it will be good for years to come because it's almost the best now.

Now, the next thing is RAM. I am willing to buy no less than 2, and no more than 4, 1GB ram modules. I frequently have over 2 gigs of my computer being actively used as virtual memory...and I know that more RAM = faster render. I also know feel that RAM is a good investment because if I change my CPU in the future, I will most likely still be able to use my old RAM modules. Also, I would really like to be able to have super high poly meshes in ZBrush 2, and I am pretty sure this is only limited by my RAM.

If I buy 4x 1GB ram modules, then I won't have enough money left over to get a new processor without going over my budget. So, the only way to get a new processor is to cut back on RAM. The question is now, is it better to get 2 GB of RAM and a Dual Core, or 4 GB of ram and stick with my 2.26 GHz P4? It would still probably end up being at least $200-300 more expensive to go with the new processor route, but if the advantage is great enough than that might still be acceptable. Running an OS that supports 64 bit would make this RAM (2 GB)way too little...but if I use a pure 32 bit OS, then this might be managable. But will the processor speed be better than the extra RAM?

I think that processor speed will be useful for 2 things. One of those is the speed that I can open and close big programs, or compute solutions to dynamics simulations. I dont care how long it takes to open the program, but I would like to keep my dynamics simulations as fast as possible. Secondly, I think that a faster CPU would allow me to clone or move around large numbers of vertices faster.

Now, what would the extra 2 GB of RAM do for me? I know for certain that it will allow me to make much higher quality meshes in ZB. It's also a better investment because while the processor will get out of date, the RAM will (for the most part) not go out of date. I suppose it might be a little slower to access than the new kinds, but that's not a huge deal if it keeps me out of the virtual memory.

Do you think that rendering would be faster with the Dual-Core and 2GB RAM, or the P4 and 4GB RAM? I am guessing that it would be faster with the Dual Core but I have no idea if it would be signifiantly better or only slightly better. LEt me know your opinion on this rendering issue please.

GeForce 6800 Ultra + 2 GB RAM + new Motherboard + Athlon 64 Dual-Core (running 32 bit OS) = about $1300

GeForce 6800 Ultra + 4 GB RAM + new Motherboard + P4 2.26 Ghz = about $1100

And finally, which do you think?
 
Get a dual core and 2GB of RAM for now. You will get the benefits of dual core now and still be able to throw in that other 2GB of RAM later. I can only logically speculate that rendering will be faster on the dual core with 2GB vs the single core with 4GB (can anyone confirm this??)

You may want to reconsider going with a Quadro instead of a GeForce. If you feel absolutely confident that you can mod the GeForce to a Quadro, then go for it to save money. But if modding it makes you a bit nervous, then stick with a Quadro.

Also, I doubt you will see much performance difference in an AMD dual core with 512K L2 cache as opposed to 1MB per core. The cpu shares an integrated memory controller, and that alone gives some serious speed over an external memory controller where extra cache would come in handy at times.

I vote to keep cost down and go with the X2 3800+ with 2GB of RAM.
 
You may want to reconsider going with a Quadro instead of a GeForce. If you feel absolutely confident that you can mod the GeForce to a Quadro, then go for it to save money. But if modding it makes you a bit nervous, then stick with a Quadro.
Click to expand...

I am nervous about modding it to a Quadro. However, my feeling is that even if I don't mod it...it will still be dramatically better.

Best Quadro in my price range is the Qaudro FX 1300 w/ 128 MB RAM at $589:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814133117

However, there is also a Quadro FX 3000 w/ 256 MB RAM for only $539 (usually goes for $1500)
http://www.hypermicro.com/product.asp?pf_id=VDPN110

I am quite confused as to why the 3000, can be purchased brand new for so cheap...what do you think could be the reason?

In the GeForce line, I can get 6800 Ultra w/ 512 MB RAM for $649
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814135174

These are all about the same price. The GeForce completely blows the 3000 out of the water in terms of tech specs. So I think that even without the Softmod, and even if the 3000 is for real at that price...then even then it would still be better to go with the GeForce. Does this make sense?

I vote to keep cost down and go with the X2 3800+ with 2GB of RAM.
Click to expand...

Well, this isn't keeping the cost down because the mobo that supports the Athlon X2 will cost at least $100 more, and the Athlon will also cost at least $160 more than the 2GB RAM I'm trading it for. So it's really going to be about $260 more expensive this route.


EDIT: One more thing. This Mobo you suggested, I am not sure that it supports the Athlon X2. At Newegg, they specifically list Athlon X2 as compatible with many boards adn this one doesnt say X2.

1. EPoX EP-9NPA+ Ultra $95 at Newegg
Click to expand...
 
Cool, thanks for letting me know that this stuff can be bought cheaper...I guess I can afford to fill up 4 GB of ram then!
 
Stuh505 said:
* Quantity is much more important than quality, since I don't want to go over my price limit and chances are I will still not have enough RAM and will end up using virtual memory, and that's going to make a much bigger difference than the speed diff between the newest kind of RAM.
Click to expand...


if you can afford to run Renderman Pro Server, your not on a budget :p
not to disuade you from running a full GB per channel or anything, but unless your setting up a RAM drive, finding an ap that will exceed the 2GB barrier per process is very very limited
(and just not required for modeling, and youd need a damn high res and poly count to push it in rendering)

I assume your running Linux or W2003S w\ NUMA?

the majority of my contribution to the memory FAQ:

Opteron Memory Guide
NUMA FAQ (Non-Uniform Memory Access)
Error Correcting Memory - Part I
Error Correcting Memory - Part II: Myths and Realities
Virtual Memory In XP

and most boards with dedicated memory channels require both ECC and Registered so that unbuffered 1GB stick link above wouldnt work in most of the dually boards that pop into my mind

dedicated memory bus
IWill DK8X
IWill DK8S
MSI K8D Master
Rioworks HDAMA
Tyan Thunder K8S
Tyan Thunder K8S Pro
Tyan Thunder K8SR
Tyan Thunder K8W
Tyan Thunder K8WE

shared memory bus
MSI K8T Master2-FAR
Rioworks HDAMB
Tyan Tiger K8W
Tyan Tiger K8WS
Tyan Tomcat K8S

if Im not mistaken all require both ECC & Registered

all are socket 940 Opteron based
and I don't see the point of PCI-E in a budget rendering rig
 
Stuh505 said:
I am nervous about modding it to a Quadro. However, my feeling is that even if I don't mod it...it will still be dramatically better.

Best Quadro in my price range is the Qaudro FX 1300 w/ 128 MB RAM at $589:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814133117

However, there is also a Quadro FX 3000 w/ 256 MB RAM for only $539 (usually goes for $1500)
http://www.hypermicro.com/product.asp?pf_id=VDPN110

I am quite confused as to why the 3000, can be purchased brand new for so cheap...what do you think could be the reason?

In the GeForce line, I can get 6800 Ultra w/ 512 MB RAM for $649
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814135174

These are all about the same price. The GeForce completely blows the 3000 out of the water in terms of tech specs. So I think that even without the Softmod, and even if the 3000 is for real at that price...then even then it would still be better to go with the GeForce. Does this make sense?



Well, this isn't keeping the cost down because the mobo that supports the Athlon X2 will cost at least $100 more, and the Athlon will also cost at least $160 more than the 2GB RAM I'm trading it for. So it's really going to be about $260 more expensive this route.


EDIT: One more thing. This Mobo you suggested, I am not sure that it supports the Athlon X2. At Newegg, they specifically list Athlon X2 as compatible with many boards adn this one doesnt say X2.
Click to expand...
Even a lower end Quadro will be significantly faster than a higher end GeForce 6000 series for professional rendering. Even though they are physically the same core (between GF and Q cards that are identical), the drivers make them act much differently (especially with multiple clipping planes for the Quadro cards vs 1 for the GeForce cards).

Don't get a 512MB GeForce 6800U, the extra VRAM has absolutely no impact on performance with that particular core. Heck for that kind of money, you can step up to a 7800GTX, which will technically render games twice as fast as a single 6800U (again, read the link I posted earlier with SpecView for the Quadro Vs. the 7800GTX).

The EPoX board I linked will support the X2, just as almost every Socket 939 board will with a simple BIOS flash if needed.
wink.gif


The possibility of extra cost involved with going X2 will get you 1 very important thing that RAM can not give you: SMP. Very very handy for 3D Rendering when utilized. Well worth the little extra cost over 4GB vs 2GB of RAM.

Hope this helps.....
 
Even a lower end Quadro will be significantly faster than a higher end GeForce 6000 series for professional rendering. Even though they are physically the same core (between GF and Q cards that are identical), the drivers make them act much differently (especially with multiple clipping planes for the Quadro cards vs 1 for the GeForce cards).
Click to expand...

Ok, Quadro it is then. Well, how much of a difference does the new PCI-e make? I could go for the newer but entry level 1300, or the older but mid level 3000 -- both the same price. One of them has to be better!

Don't get a 512MB GeForce 6800U, the extra VRAM has absolutely no impact on performance with that particular core.
Click to expand...

This is really confusing to me. Why would more memory be useless?

Your advice has been great so far. I'm going to take your advice on the AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core processor 3800+* also.

I'm also going to go with 4 GB of this RAM:
1GB PC 3200 DDR 400 Mhz 184PIN 1 GB
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-1GB-P...791459004QQcategoryZ74942QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

So far with the Quadro + AthlonX2 + 4GB ram I am up to $1000. I can't pick a mobo yet because it is highly dependent on which Quadro I get.
 
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OK.....I've purchased a Quadro FX 3000...and in my last post I stated the RAM and CPU.

So, on the motherboard, here are my reqs:

* Must have 8x AGP port for Quadro
* Must have 4x 184 pin 3200DDR
* Must support Athlon 64 X2
* Must have socket type 939

Not sure about the relevance of the FSB, though. Does anything here need to synch up with the 400 MHz clock speed or 850 MHz memory speed of the GPU?

Is this a good choice?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813123222
 
Stuh505 said:
OK.....I've purchased a Quadro FX 3000...and in my last post I stated the RAM and CPU.

So, on the motherboard, here are my reqs:

* Must have 8x AGP port for Quadro
* Must have 4x 184 pin 3200DDR
* Must support Athlon 64 X2
* Must have socket type 939

Not sure about the relevance of the FSB, though. Does anything here need to synch up with the 400 MHz clock speed or 850 MHz memory speed of the GPU?

Is this a good choice?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813123222
Click to expand...
The motherboard will synch up automatically with the CPU. The only thing you should have to worry about is getting PC3200 memory.
You have nothing to worry about with the gpu memory speed, as it's completely independent of the AGP interconnect speed. ;)

The EPoX board you linked looks nice. However, I checked their support page and they only have a beta bios for X2 support. Not sure if there have been any cases of instability, but it is something to consider. EPoX is a very reputable company, so I don't forsee any issues that would warrant immanent danger.

You may also want to check into these boards:
MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum - Many have recommended this board for X2 in another thread.
.....BIOS Support Page

DFI Lanparty UT NF3 Ultra D - Supposed to be a damn good board. There are some members on the forum here using this and praise it.
.....BIOS Support Page

Gigabyte GA-K8NSC-939 - Stable if overclocking is not a consideration.
.....BIOS Support Page

If you don't already have one, please please please go out and get yourself an anti-static wriststrap and maybe even an anti-static mat to use when assembling everything. You definitely don't want to expose your expensive new toys to possible undetectable ESD damage which could potentially cause total system failure down the road.
 
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I have the Neo2-F. Its the same as the platinum except it doesn't have firewire and dual lan
 
Not sure if I'll need a new PSU. My current PSU is a

Turbolink MODEL: CWT-420ATX. 12V (420W Max).

Although the nvidia website does not list the power consumption of the Quadro FX 3000, I assume its somewhere between the 1300 and the 3400 making it in the 80-100W range.

The AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core is 89W I believe.

In addition I'll be using a Fortissimo II, the 4 GB of ram, DVD drive, CD/R-W drive.

I think my 420W PSU is still enough but don't want to mess up...

Also, I found the elusive specs of the MSI mobo...
http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=650

I noticed something interesting, if I have 4 GB of double sided RAM the max operating speed is only DDR300...but if the RAM sticks are single sided 1 GB then it can operate at the full DDR400. I'm guessing that those really cheap ram sticks are double sided :/

Since nobody ever says online if it's single or double sided...anyone have suggestions of the cheapest possible 1 GB DDR400 single sided sticks?
 
That answer is too short!

If my current PSU is not good enough, I need to know why in order to find one that is good enough.
 
Stuh505 said:
Not sure if I'll need a new PSU. My current PSU is a

Turbolink MODEL: CWT-420ATX. 12V (420W Max).

Although the nvidia website does not list the power consumption of the Quadro FX 3000, I assume its somewhere between the 1300 and the 3400 making it in the 80-100W range.

The AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core is 89W I believe.

In addition I'll be using a Fortissimo II, the 4 GB of ram, DVD drive, CD/R-W drive.

I think my 420W PSU is still enough but don't want to mess up...

Also, I found the elusive specs of the MSI mobo...
http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=650

I noticed something interesting, if I have 4 GB of double sided RAM the max operating speed is only DDR300...but if the RAM sticks are single sided 1 GB then it can operate at the full DDR400. I'm guessing that those really cheap ram sticks are double sided :/

Since nobody ever says online if it's single or double sided...anyone have suggestions of the cheapest possible 1 GB DDR400 single sided sticks?
Click to expand...
You should definitely entertain the idea of getting a stronger psu. Reason: You'll need some decent output on the +12V rail(s) to run an A64 and a video card in the calibre which you have selected.

This one is on sale right now and has dual +12V rails, which will supply plenty of power to both the cpu and gpu.

This one has triple +12V rails and has a mail in rebate right now.

This one has dual +12V rails. Might be a bit better than the above two, as it's Enermax (I don't have any direct experience with Cooler Master power supplies).

This Enermax is a great highh-end psu.

Silverstone makes a psu with quad +12V rails.

And of course, the cream of the crop right now would be this PC Power & Cooling 510 SLI psu. The output is rated at 50'C, which is higher than any other maker. It's peak output is 650W (510W continuous).

All of the above have Active PFC, which can be an important factor for attributing to maximum system stability.


As for the memory, ask the seller what kind of configuration the memory is (Single or double sidded. ...It's high density, so I'm guessing maybe single???).

If you're not satisfied with the reply, then I suggest getting some of these, which use the highly sought after Samsung TCCD chips. You don't need to worry about the X2 running the memory at DDR333 speed. The new memory controller of the Revision E cpu (Venice, San Diego, Manchester, and Toledo cores) will run 4 DIMMS at DDR400 speed. I have 4 cheap Kingmax PC3200 512MB modules running at DDR400 with my Venice 3000+ cpu.
 
DejaWiz said:
All of the above have Active PFC, which can be an important factor for attributing to maximum system stability.
Click to expand...

???
PFC Decoded

they are an important factor to maintain system stability in a UPS
because batteries dont like nonlinear loads
more important with an online UPS compared to a line interactive

as far as computers go PFC isnt horribly important at all
but it certainly doesnt hurt ;)

as far as that TurboLink goes, your lucky you still have a computer
thats a Deer

you definately need a new high quality supply ;)
 
This one is on sale right now and has dual +12V rails, which will supply plenty of power to both the cpu and gpu.
Click to expand...

You forgot to mention it glows blue and has a watt meter, at half the price. This is too cool to pass up.

As for the memory, ask the seller what kind of configuration the memory is (Single or double sidded. ...It's high density, so I'm guessing maybe single???).

If you're not satisfied with the reply, then I suggest getting some of these, which use the highly sought after Samsung TCCD chips. You don't need to worry about the X2 running the memory at DDR333 speed. The new memory controller of the Revision E cpu (Venice, San Diego, Manchester, and Toledo cores) will run 4 DIMMS at DDR400 speed. I have 4 cheap Kingmax PC3200 512MB modules running at DDR400 with my Venice 3000+ cpu.
Click to expand...

I have already asked the seller but havent heard back yet. You say it will be able to run at DDR400 speed which directly contradicts MSI's tech specs on this specific motherboard. Are you saying that these tech specs are just some numbers that they throw out relating to all their motherboards, and that the technology has improved but they havent updated the spec sheet? If that's what you're telling me, I'll believe you -- I just want to clarify. But, if that is the case...then why am I even bothering to ask if the cheap RAM is single or double sided?

Edit: have bought everything but the RAM now
 
Ice Czar said:
???
PFC Decoded

they are an important factor to maintain system stability in a UPS
because batteries dont like nonlinear loads
more important with an online UPS compared to a line interactive

as far as computers go PFC isnt horribly important at all
but it certainly doesnt hurt ;)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the great info and clarification, Ice! That definitely puts the shackles on marketing talk versus functionality.
 
Stuh505 said:
1.) You say it will be able to run at DDR400 speed which directly contradicts MSI's tech specs on this specific motherboard.

2.) Are you saying that these tech specs are just some numbers that they throw out relating to all their motherboards, and that the technology has improved but they havent updated the spec sheet? If that's what you're telling me, I'll believe you -- I just want to clarify.

3.) But, if that is the case...then why am I even bothering to ask if the cheap RAM is single or double sided?
Click to expand...
1.) For an A64 system, it's the cpus integrated memory controller that has the final say on memory operating speed, not the motherboard itself. However, if the BIOS detects that all DIMM slots are populated or if certain other conditions exist, it might be programed to force the memory to operate at a lower speed. Keep in mind that A64s prior to Revision E could not handle 4 DIMMs at DDR400 in all circumstances. My motherboard defaults to DDR333 with a 4 DIMM setup, but I over-ride this to DDR400 in BIOS and everything works fine and dandy.

2.) No, it's definitely not just some numbers they are throwing out there. There are some circumstances, such as the capability of the memory controller and the type of module being used (single or double sided and density layout) that affects how the memory controller can transfer data to and from physical addresses on the DIMMs while maintaining stability and integrity. I'd be moreso inquisitive to see if the 128x4 layout (as opposed to say, 128x64) on the eBay modules are compatible with this particular A64 platform.

3.) It's good info to know. If they are single sided (rare with 1GB modules), then you will know by the tech specs from MSI that the board will run them at DDR400 speed without your intervention (given the hopes that they will even work in this board at 128x4 layout). If they are double sided, the BIOS will default them to the conditional DDR333 speed, so you would have to force them to run at DDR400 with BIOS settings.


[EDIT:]
Doing some research, I am leary of using 1GB modules with a 128x4 layout. Seems they are not fully compatible with nForce chipsets. They (a.) will work with a few systems in the best case, (b.) usually will be recognized as 512MB a lot of times in most systems, and (c.) the system will not function at all in the worst case.

These Rosewill modules are actually made by PQI, and are in the needed 128x64 layout. They will work just fine in your new system at DDR400 speed and happen to be the least expensive 1GB PC3200 modules Newegg carries. You will have to spend a bit more over the eBay modules, but unfortunately it's the nature of the beast..... :(

I should also add that because of an nForce chipset south bridge limitation, the memory will only be displayed as about 3.5GB when four 1GB modules are used. This applies to just about all motherboards. I haven't found a single one yet without this limitation.
 
It seems this ram used to be going for $85 recently and just got bumped up about $10. Cool to learn that "128x64" = single, and "64x64" = double. Wierd, Newegg won't let you buy more than 2x of this ram. So they lost my business. It was difficult to find anywhere else that even sells them, but I ended up getting 4 at the same price from chiefvalue.com They even gave me free shipping making it cheaper.

So, here's what I've paid:

$66.98 1x COOLER MASTER Real Power RS-450-ACLY ATX12V 450W Power Supply
$399.95 1x nVidia Quadro FX 3000 GPU
$74.00 1x MSI K8N NEO2-F Motherboard
$376.28 1x AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core processor 3800+*
$379.96 4x RW400/1024 1 GB PC3200 128x64 RAM

TOTAL $1297.17

(These were all separate orders and I included the cost of 3-day shipping in the costs)

But don't worry, this thread isn't dead until the benchmarks are posted :p

EDIT: I CANT WAIT!!!
 
<edited>

Well, I'm planning to put a 32 bit OS on here. But if I use Windows XP, then only 2 GB goes to my programs and the other 2 GB goes to Windows! I would really like to have all 4 GB of it accessible to programs. Would I be able to do this if I ran Windows Server 2003? I'm worried if the "pae fix" in Windows Server 20003 32-bit would be compatible with the Athlon 64 bit.
 
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