Blizzard Workers Share Salaries in Revolt Over Wage Disparities

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Dayaks

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No matter your preferred tax scheme, don't forget where it goes.

The government. ;)

Remember that the next time you talk about taxes. Maybe if taxes went to us normal people, things would be different.
But the government? I sure hope you've chosen your masters wisely.

Oh and we all know we do a bang up job of that...
 

Comixbooks

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With the ongoing crisis people are going to drop their WOW subs for ftp games and opt for singleplayer or coop games.
 
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Bowman15

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According to what study?
Happiness...Scandinavia FTW.
No corruption.. again Scandi FTW.
Could you provide a study backing up your claim?

I can provide Google. Search is your friend and so is History....LOL a study.

https://www.heritage.org/progressivism/commentary/these-are-the-most-telling-failures-socialism

https://fee.org/articles/why-socialism-failed/

https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/socialism-ruin-nations/

https://capx.co/you-cant-argue-against-socialisms-100-per-cent-record-of-failure/
 
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harmattan

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I can provide Google. Search is your friend and so is History....LOL a study.

I would love if my review committees would just accept "Google it" in the ref and annotations section.

Capture.PNG
 

harmattan

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Would you love the links I actually provided....or do you only trust studies....I can provider more links for you to deny?

View attachment 267847

No one is denying anything. The point is, if you're going to make a claim, and someone asks for research, be prepared to back it up with evidentiary background. "Google it" is analogous to "I'm too lazy" which isn't a valid argument. Ultimately, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, not the one asking for evidence. In any case, I see you've added evidence in your post which is what I was getting at.

And I'm not a millennial, but am fine with identifying with that group if requiring evidence is one of their supposed traits.

Edit: For what it's worth, I agree with your position. Capitalism without constraint is fraught with inherent issues (as is over stifling socialism). And from what I've read and seen in my time spent there, Scandinavian countries rate far higher than the US on the happiness meter (although they have a mostly-homogenous population and large resources bolstering their economies). And although I love my homeland, I do know from my own experience living in multiple countries the US is certainly not the best place to live in the world.
 
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Bowman15

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No one is denying anything. The point is, if you're going to make a claim, and someone asks for research, be prepared to back it up with evidentiary background. "Google it" is analogous to "I'm too lazy" which isn't a valid argument. Ultimately, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, not the one asking for evidence.

And I'm not a millennial, but am fine with identifying with that group if requiring evidence is one of their supposed traits.

Yet you missed the part where I edited and added links after a couple minutes...do I really need to provide links to socialism failure? I mean its common knowledge ffs. And the millennial asked for a fucking study. that should have clued you in. You can identify as a transgender koala bear for all I care..."identifying with that group" you still sound like one.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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That is rubbish. The way the job market is today with over 25% of the work force unemployed there are Not many options.

This may be the case for unskilled labor, but STEM type fields, especially those that lend themselves to remote work are still as hot as ever.

I have had absolutely zero slowdown in the several headhunters cold calling me weekly since the height of the market.

(I still don't understand how the hell they find me)
 

sc5mu93

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This may be the case for unskilled labor, but STEM type fields, especially those that lend themselves to remote work are still as hot as ever.

I have had absolutely zero slowdown in the several headhunters cold calling me weekly since the height of the market.

(I still don't understand how the hell they find me)
n8TqyJz.gif
 

Factum

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You might want to go recheck some of those scandinavian "facts".

I live in Scandinavia, pretty easy to check:
https://worldhappiness.report/ed/20...e-constantly-among-the-happiest-in-the-world/

Corruption index:
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi

You might want to get out of your "bubble".

I will grant you the "We fucked up our Corona reponse" first prize.

Where is your data?
(I notice a trend of "drive-by-posting", missing and then going all ninja...)
 

Aurelius

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Have to laugh at how your 'evidence' is a bunch of hard-right, ultra-capitalist op-eds. If I was still marking university papers, you'd have received a failing grade for choosing heavily biased sources that don't even pretend to write objective reports.

The truth, as much as you'd hate to admit it, is that some countries with socialized aspects do fare better. For example, Canadians not only don't panic if they go to the hospital, they don't pay much more in taxes than Americans at middle class levels. But that actually leaves them with more usable income, since they're not being gouged by private health insurance apart from a few things like dental care.

The US has some good things going for it, but please don't pretend that its approach is the best in the world. You should never have to choose between bankruptcy and dying. You shouldn't be forced to work two full-time jobs just so that you can feed your family or live where your family has always lived. The Activision situation is partly reflective of a failure in the American economic system, and we should acknowledge that.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I live in Scandinavia, pretty easy to check:
https://worldhappiness.report/ed/20...e-constantly-among-the-happiest-in-the-world/

Corruption index:
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi

You might want to get out of your "bubble".

I will grant you the "We fucked up our Corona reponse" first prize.

Where is your data?
(I notice a trend of "drive-by-posting", missing and then going all ninja...)

And I lived in Sweden from 1983 to 1999. Sure, some things have changed in the last 20 years, but I still have my finger on the pulse and visit often.

Happiness is often linked to a lack of worry and stress, and there is simply less stress in a society where you don't have to be concerned about such questions like "am I going to run out of retirement savings in old age", "how am I going to afford college for my kids", "if we ever get sick, are we going to have to file bankruptcy despite having health insurance" and many others.

And it is true, there is a bit of a trade-off when it comes to economic growth in order to have these things, but economic growth is not everything. It's well worth it to sacrifice a small amount of GPD growth in exchange for living a better life.

And the sacrifices in economic growth aren't even as large as many would believe, because it turns out many of these things that make life easier to live, also result in a more highly skilled and productive workforce.

Definitely agree on the "screwed up coronavirus response first prize" thing though.

If I could get a job and a permit to work in Sweden (heck, I should be able to apply for Citizenship based on my dad being Swedish) I'd love to move back. I'm just so tired of fighting for the very basics over here.
 

harmattan

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And I lived in Sweden from 1983 to 1999. Sure, some things have changed in the last 20 years, but I still have my finger on the pulse and visit often.

Happiness is often linked to a lack of worry and stress, and there is simply less stress in a society where you don't have to be concerned about such questions like "am I going to run out of retirement savings in old age", "how am I going to afford college for my kids", "if we ever get sick, are we going to have to file bankruptcy despite having health insurance" and many others.

And it is true, there is a bit of a trade-off when it comes to economic growth in order to have these things, but economic growth is not everything. It's well worth it to sacrifice a small amount of GPD growth in exchange for living a better life.

Living in the UK now, and having lived for a good while in France, this has been my experience vs. the US (and these two countries aren't even the best for social security/pension or universal healthcare). I'm very happy to pay 5-6% more in taxes (which, by the way, is somewhat nullified by not having to pay health insurance premiums I paid in the US), in order to know that I won't bankrupt my family if I get sick. It's not just myself and my own, but it's the comfort knowing my neighbor will be looked after if he/she gets sick. And having actually been sick at times, both in the US and France, the healthcare is second to none. Bonus that I no longer have to fill out pre-authorization or medical insurance forms which are designed to confound and overcharge.

As an American who has experienced living countries and using universal healthcare systems, it's bonkers the US doesn't have one (although I know big pharma and HMO's have their vampire teeth in the public's and govt's neck too deep to let that happen).
 
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phillyboy

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Yeah, exactly. In engineering world you have to jump around too. Even if you get a promotion it's capped at 10% where I am now. If you leave and come back for the jump it's 30-40%.

It's really strange to be honest - it's like cable or phone companies. The more loyal and dedicated you are the more you get screwed.

It's true... they reward loyalty and years of service with more work but no money. It's also fun when you get stuck at a small plant where the only way to grow is to either take your boss's job, become a plant superintendent/manager, or go work for "corporate" in another state. If not then it's mediocre 2% merit raises every year and you are stuck with no career advancement .

I brought pay/advancement up at my last review with my boss, as I can get an engineering job with a utility in the same town and make $15k more per year. He responds with "well, if that's what you need to do to support your family" along with "you are one of the highest paid employees in the plant" and "well a Senior Controls Engineer position would just be that... a title change. You'd be surprised what we pay senior and non-senior people in this company." I sat there thinking about the job he hired me to do that I took a $8k pay cut for seven years ago. Thanks for trying to keep me :rolleyes:.
 

Bowman15

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Have to laugh at how your 'evidence' is a bunch of hard-right, ultra-capitalist op-eds. If I was still marking university papers, you'd have received a failing grade for choosing heavily biased sources that don't even pretend to write objective reports.

The truth, as much as you'd hate to admit it, is that some countries with socialized aspects do fare better. For example, Canadians not only don't panic if they go to the hospital, they don't pay much more in taxes than Americans at middle class levels. But that actually leaves them with more usable income, since they're not being gouged by private health insurance apart from a few things like dental care.

The US has some good things going for it, but please don't pretend that its approach is the best in the world. You should never have to choose between bankruptcy and dying. You shouldn't be forced to work two full-time jobs just so that you can feed your family or live where your family has always lived. The Activision situation is partly reflective of a failure in the American economic system, and we should acknowledge that.

LOL those were the first links I copied in a matter of a 10 second Google search. Its not hard, try it. I knew the first thing certain posters would be is start claiming them as hard right (insert whatever link here). Just go down the search list and find some more if you don't trust those.

Claiming everyone has to work two jobs to raise a family is uneducated and quite frankly obtuse. So we are lumping all of America in that now? That's the beauty of freedom, you can go work for someone else if wages are to low or vote for change. Like I said they all have certain things in common and having socialized aspects is not the same as straight up socialism, that doesn't work.

PS: I see you must have been in academics. Yeah nothing hard left about colleges....
 

UltraTaco

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Taco likes to watch Rick Steve's Europe and that is a true fact I can vouch for. People seem more relaxed and overall seem happier than the states. It is almost different world in europe, especially those smaller towns. Incredible.

Fascinating...
Find out what the excitement is about, visit ricksteves.com or tune to your local PBS station for new episodes.
 

5150Joker

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Why do you think your anecdotal experience overrides his? He has a broader experience of the world than you do.

Between the unsupported "best country in the world to live in" claim and "if you don't like it, leave" remarks, it's pretty clear you're not really interested in ensuring the US is the best country to live in... you're just interested in defending the status quo. Real patriotism means constantly questioning whether or not you're living up to your values and standards. It means treating your country as a constant work in progress where things can always be better, and acknowledging that other countries might do things better. It doesn't mean acting as if your country is essentially perfect, or insisting that no one is allowed to raise substantial criticism as long as they live within your borders.

That's one of the biggest problems with American exceptionalism: it has crossed the line from national pride (which is a fine thing when it's healthy) to demanding conformity and mindless obedience. Either treat things as generally perfect (even when they're obviously not) or get out.

To tie this back to the original story... there's something messed up when the people Activision depends on for testing and customer support are struggling to afford basics like food. The American system clearly hasn't worked well here -- the company is still doing well despite treating some of its employees like garbage. While ideally Activision would reform behavior on its own, this does make a case for minimum wages and other labor guarantees that keep pace with the cost of living in a given state or city.

I would agree minimum wage should be raised for companies with say over 150 employees but not for small businesses in an expensive area. All that serves to do is kill off small business owners.
 

Grimlakin

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I would agree minimum wage should be raised for companies with say over 150 employees but not for small businesses in an expensive area. All that serves to do is kill off small business owners.

I think Coronavirus shows that NO business is much more harmful than paying your employees a living wage.
 

Aurelius

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LOL those were the first links I copied in a matter of a 10 second Google search. Its not hard, try it. I knew the first thing certain posters would be is start claiming them as hard right (insert whatever link here). Just go down the search list and find some more if you don't trust those.

Claiming everyone has to work two jobs to raise a family is uneducated and quite frankly obtuse. So we are lumping all of America in that now? That's the beauty of freedom, you can go work for someone else if wages are to low or vote for change. Like I said they all have certain things in common and having socialized aspects is not the same as straight up socialism, that doesn't work.

PS: I see you must have been in academics. Yeah nothing hard left about colleges....

Good research doesn't mean just copy-pasting the first links you find in a Google search that tell you what you want to hear (if it took 10 seconds, you failed completely). It means actually vetting the quality of the sources and making sure that they're reasonably impartial and well-supported. You know, ensuring that you have a strong argument, not merely an argument.

I didn't say that everyone has to work two jobs. How did you make that logical leap? The point is that there are people who do, and that it's not as simple for suffering workers to "go work for someone else" as you claim. The Ayn Randian fantasy is that you can simply find a better job if the conditions at the one you have are bad; the real-world truth is that you're often limited by location, educational opportunities, and even the basic ability to get time off (which can be difficult for per-hour shift work). And of course, the companies often have little actual incentive to improve. Why deliver better conditions when there's usually some other desperate person ready to replace the worker you just fired for demanding better conditions? Activision certainly hasn't bothered to respond to some very public criticism by promising better wages; it knows those staffers are disposable.

I'd dispute the implication that universities and colleges are hard left (certainly not universally), but there's something more important you're overlooking: they teach critical thinking skills. For example, finding objective, strong sources. Relying on logical reasoning (including, I'd add, rejecting "appeal to status quo" fallacies). Questioning assumptions without simply being contrarian. Rejecting post-secondary education isn't just succumbing to stereotypes, it's caving into anti-intellectualism -- as Isaac Asimov put it, the view that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
 

Bowman15

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Good research doesn't mean just copy-pasting the first links you find in a Google search that tell you what you want to hear (if it took 10 seconds, you failed completely). It means actually vetting the quality of the sources and making sure that they're reasonably impartial and well-supported. You know, ensuring that you have a strong argument, not merely an argument.

I didn't say that everyone has to work two jobs. How did you make that logical leap? The point is that there are people who do, and that it's not as simple for suffering workers to "go work for someone else" as you claim. The Ayn Randian fantasy is that you can simply find a better job if the conditions at the one you have are bad; the real-world truth is that you're often limited by location, educational opportunities, and even the basic ability to get time off (which can be difficult for per-hour shift work). And of course, the companies often have little actual incentive to improve. Why deliver better conditions when there's usually some other desperate person ready to replace the worker you just fired for demanding better conditions? Activision certainly hasn't bothered to respond to some very public criticism by promising better wages; it knows those staffers are disposable.

I'd dispute the implication that universities and colleges are hard left (certainly not universally), but there's something more important you're overlooking: they teach critical thinking skills. For example, finding objective, strong sources. Relying on logical reasoning (including, I'd add, rejecting "appeal to status quo" fallacies). Questioning assumptions without simply being contrarian. Rejecting post-secondary education isn't just succumbing to stereotypes, it's caving into anti-intellectualism -- as Isaac Asimov put it, the view that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

Read your own dam post where you didn't specify exactly who has to work two jobs to support a family, hence I could only postulate and assume. And as far as vetting my own google sources if it takes me 10 seconds just think what a smart guy like you could do with more time? Did the poster who said cite "studies" deserver more time than that....I say no. Also, you expound on details I never argued about. You are starting to sound like an academic preachy whiny b*tch now. Freedom comes with hardships just like everything else....learn to cope in the real world. Its part of those critical thinking skills that may have been overlooked in college.
 

os2wiz

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This may be the case for unskilled labor, but STEM type fields, especially those that lend themselves to remote work are still as hot as ever.

I have had absolutely zero slowdown in the several headhunters cold calling me weekly since the height of the market.

(I still don't understand how the hell they find me)
You just proved my point. I did not specify high tech stem jobs. That sector has not yet been hit hard. But give it another 6 months and you will regret your statement. All sectors will be going down the tubes very soon. This is not simply pandemic shaped. We were overdue for another systemic slide since derivative speculation is higher now than it was in 2008-2009. Corona brought it on faster and intensified the Depression we are in. It is already going to surpass the 1930's Great Depression in intensity. It will propel us toward war with China and Russia, and create the possibility if a successful revolution here and internationally, IF a revolutionary party grows exponentially and is international in character. But first will come massive suffering and fascism.
 

os2wiz

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Actually yes it is, if its legal.

Regardless that has nothing to do with paying employees lower wages...supply and demand. If there was a shortage of workers they would have to pay more.
B.S. Racism has been illegal for 56 years in this country but the laws are not enforced and the courts, congress, and Presidents have done an end run around the laws. It is the insidious power of finance capital to bribe, kill, and intimidate to maintain their total domination of the state apparatus. That is why reform is delusional in this society. Elections are delusional. Only a clandestine mass revolutionary party can undermine and eventually overthrow this sick system.
 

os2wiz

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That is not a tragedy, that is capitalism. Most states are "at will" employment. Nobody is making them work there and the company is under no obligation to make employees millionaire or rich enough to spit out more kids. I know freedom sucks sometimes but they have obligations to their share holders.

PS: Socialim does not work regardless of flaws in capitalism.
Your right socialism does not work, because it incorporates the the capitalist wage labor system which corrupts revolutionary leadership and causes divisions within the working class. However communism can work. Egalitarian communism was never implemented in the Russian and Chinese Revolutions. They had a bastardized form of state capitalism. The Left communists have learned from the errors of those revolutions and are rebuilding the international communist movement. You 6 figure guys can take a hike and continue to kiss the bosses asses, but the industrial working class, and teachers, hospital workers, and the service workers, and unemployed will shake capitalism to it's very foundations. We are doing the preparatory work. It will happen, but since I am 71 and in bad health I won't see it, but my children and grands will. See plp.org
 

BinarySynapse

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Your right socialism does not work, because it incorporates the the capitalist wage labor system which corrupts revolutionary leadership and causes divisions within the working class. However communism can work. Egalitarian communism was never implemented in the Russian and Chinese Revolutions. They had a bastardized form of state capitalism. The Left communists have learned from the errors of those revolutions and are rebuilding the international communist movement. You 6 figure guys can take a hike and continue to kiss the bosses asses, but the industrial working class, and teachers, hospital workers, and the service workers, and unemployed will shake capitalism to it's very foundations. We are doing the preparatory work. It will happen, but since I am 71 and in bad health I won't see it, but my children and grands will. See plp.org
“Real communism just hasn’t been tried yet”
 

Bowman15

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B.S. Racism has been illegal for 56 years in this country but the laws are not enforced and the courts, congress, and Presidents have done an end run around the laws. It is the insidious power of finance capital to bribe, kill, and intimidate to maintain their total domination of the state apparatus. That is why reform is delusional in this society. Elections are delusional. Only a clandestine mass revolutionary party can undermine and eventually overthrow this sick system.

LOL wtf....
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Your right socialism does not work, because it incorporates the the capitalist wage labor system which corrupts revolutionary leadership and causes divisions within the working class. However communism can work. Egalitarian communism was never implemented in the Russian and Chinese Revolutions. They had a bastardized form of state capitalism. The Left communists have learned from the errors of those revolutions and are rebuilding the international communist movement. You 6 figure guys can take a hike and continue to kiss the bosses asses, but the industrial working class, and teachers, hospital workers, and the service workers, and unemployed will shake capitalism to it's very foundations. We are doing the preparatory work. It will happen, but since I am 71 and in bad health I won't see it, but my children and grands will. See plp.org

The problem with communism is twofold:

1.) It requires strong leadership to enact, and power corrupts
2.) It removes personal incentive from the economy, without which no one has any reason to do better.

As much as you may like to think people do things out of idealism, that is mostly not the case. There are some exceptions, but overwhelmingly people do things for selfish reasons, and without an individual financial incentive for doing so, the whole system falls into apathy and poor performance.

It is pretty clear we in the U.S. have gone too far in the opposite direction with our "winner take all" structure while everyone but the 1% suffers, but a Marxist style planned economy with public ownership of the means of production would be a disaster. This is not the alternative.

The only good alternative is a neat little sandboxed capitalist environment providing just enough selfish personal incentive for success to produce favorable economic outcomes, used to fund a society with great safety nets and public education.

In other words, the Scandinavian Social Democratic model.

Any talk of communist revolution is just foolish nonsense which should have died a hundred years ago.
 
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mlcarson

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I feel sorry for some of these employees. It's not a problem with capitalism because that would imply open salary figures and the concept of supply/demand. Salaries are almost never disclosed so you don't have the data to make an informed decision as an employee. The bigger problem though is that the government and the employers are actively working to increase the labor supply via the H1B visa program and via outsourcing if that fails. You artificially increase the labor supply in a market and you bring down the price. I'd love to see the actual numbers in that spreadsheet that the article mentioned. The big questions I have is what do they expect as a percentage for an annual salary increase and how much if any are they getting in stock options. The average salary increases are only around 3.3%. This does create a perverse incentive to leave a company to actually get a real raise -- especially in a STEM field. HR will rarely authorize larger increases to keep employees but have no problem hiring a new employee at a much higher rate.

Another problem that Blizzard and any large company has is how do they justify their executive compensation packages compared to the average worker? Executive compensation has sky rocketed. Since 1978 CEO compensation has increased 937% vs 11.2% for average workers. There are some exception CEO's that are worth every penny that they earn but most are not. They simply fail upwards -- there always seems to be another company that wants a CEO that completely destroyed their last company.

And LOL at those saying that socialism/communism works better than capitalism.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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No matter your preferred tax scheme, don't forget where it goes.

The government. ;)

Remember that the next time you talk about taxes. Maybe if taxes went to us normal people, things would be different.
But the government? I sure hope you've chosen your masters wisely.

A government by, for, and of the people.

And what does the government spend it on again?

Services for us normal people. Necessary or good things that we cannot do individually.

That's the whole purpose of government.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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What I completely, 100% agree with, is sharing of salaries. Every large organization I've worked for has either made the inference that sharing comp is "bad" (i.e. bad for execs and others being overcompensated) or out-right not allowed (a statement which is, in most jurisdictions, patently illegal). Wage disparity between equally-experienced and equally-producing peers is in no way ok.

I don't have a problem with wage disparity.

Everyone should have the right to say, "I won't take this job unless I get $x", and if they successfully negotiate that argument and get the job, it shouldn't drive up everyone else's salary.

I think there is more harm than good in "making everyone equal". There is too much nuance in the individual differences in skill and experience for any formula to adequately come up with compensation, and if everyone always shares their compensation, then someone is always going to feel jilted, when maybe it was just that the other person had the right skills at the right time and were good at negotiating.

That, and you have a huge hurdle to overcome when it comes to talking about salary. Its long been socially unacceptable to talk about how much money you make. It is seen as an ugly form of bragging.
 

mlcarson

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You wouldn't feel the same way if you were the one who was jilted. It may not have anything to do with how good of a negotiator you are. In my experience, there's generally not a lot of leeway in negotiations anyway. The employer has a specific salary range in mind and doesn't go above it no matter how good you are. The biggest factor is market timing. If you end up switching jobs when the market isn't hot -- you end up on the low side of that range. You're then screwed because most companies don't want to pay more than a certain percentage increase in raises and because they are percentage based, you fall further behind your peers. You're actually doubly screwed because new employers want to know your current salary before making an offer and only want to go a certain percentage higher than your current salary so it can take multiple job hops to get you up to an appropriate level. Lots of employers then look at that as a reason to not hire you because you won't stay long-term with the company. A good employer will try to equalize things over time for people doing the same job equally well but there are a lot of bad employers who have no problem taking advantage of their workers. I don't know where Blizzard lies in that spectrum.

I don't have a problem with wage disparity.

Everyone should have the right to say, "I won't take this job unless I get $x", and if they successfully negotiate that argument and get the job, it shouldn't drive up everyone else's salary.

I think there is more harm than good in "making everyone equal". There is too much nuance in the individual differences in skill and experience for any formula to adequately come up with compensation, and if everyone always shares their compensation, then someone is always going to feel jilted, when maybe it was just that the other person had the right skills at the right time and were good at negotiating.

That, and you have a huge hurdle to overcome when it comes to talking about salary. Its long been socially unacceptable to talk about how much money you make. It is seen as an ugly form of bragging.
 

Nside

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Policies for a small countries don't scale up, particularly for a country like the USA which is essentially the world police. Pull our presence out of the middle east (yes, Israel too... they talk about how awesome they are, they can do without our tens of billions in welfare and free military support) ... Then pull out of the UN and NATO, which we pay for mostly and get taken advantage of by most other countries. Step back and let the civilized world fend for itself again. Canada lucks out, they're too close NOT to defend along with the US. But even they have a fraction of our population, and that's not even counting the census-dodgers.

So pull all of our troops and military equipment back in, cut our military budget accordingly (same level of defense for us, just not sprawled out over the planet for everyone else) ... Stop giving "Aid" to countries that take advantage of us... Pull out of these 1-sided partnerships like the UN and NATO, where we end up covering their delinquent bills as they openly ridicule the USA. Do all of those things, THEN maybe we talk about adding some socialist policies that countries with virtually no military and single-digit percentage of our population thrives with. I'm fine with this...

EDIT: And yes, I would gladly pay some extra taxes and even a little more for products if we went back to being mostly self sufficient with trade, and stopped fighting/causing wars that aren't ours.
 
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vegeta535

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Policies for a small countries don't scale up, particularly for a country like the USA which is essentially the world police. Pull our presence out of the middle east (yes, Israel too... they talk about how awesome they are, they can do without our tens of billions in welfare and free military support) ... Then pull out of the UN and NATO, which we pay for mostly and get taken advantage of by most other countries. Step back and let the civilized world fend for itself again. Canada lucks out, they're too close NOT to defend along with the US. But even they have a fraction of our population, and that's not even counting the census-dodgers.

So pull all of our troops and military equipment back in, cut our military budget accordingly (same level of defense for us, just not sprawled out over the planet for everyone else) ... Stop giving "Aid" to countries that take advantage of us... Pull out of these 1-sided partnerships like the UN and NATO, where we end up covering their delinquent bills as they openly ridicule the USA. Do all of those things, THEN maybe we talk about adding some socialist policies that countries with virtually no military and single-digit percentage of our population thrives with. I'm fine with this...
This so fucking much. I honestly would love to see how this world would turn out if the US didn't exist. All these ignorant people laugh and ridicule us would be under communist control if we didn't protect them. Socialism does not work on a giant scale like the USA. It can work if everyone contributes. As it is now the US is full of bottom feeder that add nothing to the country but drain resources.
 
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Master_Pain

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Policies for a small countries don't scale up, particularly for a country like the USA which is essentially the world police. Pull our presence out of the middle east (yes, Israel too... they talk about how awesome they are, they can do without our tens of billions in welfare and free military support) ... Then pull out of the UN and NATO, which we pay for mostly and get taken advantage of by most other countries. Step back and let the civilized world fend for itself again. Canada lucks out, they're too close NOT to defend along with the US. But even they have a fraction of our population, and that's not even counting the census-dodgers.

So pull all of our troops and military equipment back in, cut our military budget accordingly (same level of defense for us, just not sprawled out over the planet for everyone else) ... Stop giving "Aid" to countries that take advantage of us... Pull out of these 1-sided partnerships like the UN and NATO, where we end up covering their delinquent bills as they openly ridicule the USA. Do all of those things, THEN maybe we talk about adding some socialist policies that countries with virtually no military and single-digit percentage of our population thrives with. I'm fine with this...

EDIT: And yes, I would gladly pay some extra taxes and even a little more for products if we went back to being mostly self sufficient with trade, and stopped fighting/causing wars that aren't ours.

I thought about typing this up earlier. We are the defense of Europe and Israel. That's why they can afford their welfare states.
 
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