Bitcoin - What Goes Up Must Come Down

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by FrgMstr, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. collegeboy69us

    collegeboy69us [H]ardness Supreme

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    Your problem is you have no idea what Ripple does, and how fast it does it. Compounding this is you have no idea what's actually involved in moving money internationally in our current system Banks can move money sure but it's slow even if it's currently "all electronic". Even with a priority time of 1 to 2 days, it usually takes 3 to 5 days (and at quite an expense) to actually settle international funds transfers.

    Your argument is like saying "well amazon can currently deliver packages just fine with the current system of paying delivery people... why would they want to use a proven automated system that speeds things up and saves a boat load of money"

    I've used XRP to transfer funds from various exchanges and it's truly mind blowing I can have a settled transaction in seconds and it only cost me 25 cents.... Vs what? paying $20 network fee and waiting 8 hours for bitcoin to settle?
     
  2. collegeboy69us

    collegeboy69us [H]ardness Supreme

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    Since you are obviously a financial wizard - maybe you can help me understand the math here: I've bought more than my share of 1060's for $180 (12 cards in reality)- that have mined their share of altcoins. Even after the market sheds 40% recently, I'm still up $12,000 due to getting in early on a few popular coins. Bitcoin can go to zero, the value of my GPU's can go to zero and I'm still kicked back relaxing and counting the money.

    How exactly will I be selling these for a loss again? I spent 2k on the cards, and have $12k in the bank now. I only pay a flat 7 cents per kwh delivered rate as well... dirt cheap relative to most places in the US.

    I liquidated my 1st gen farm back in the day (6950s 7950s etc) and here's a fun bit of information: any miner that has 1/2 a brain to setup their operation properly, make their profit, and wants out.... doesn't give a crap what price his GPU's sell for. That's the usual situation.


    Of course there's always the people late to the game, who buy a 1060 for $400 and think they will be a millionaire in 30 days - once they realize their get rich quick scheme has problems they try and sell off early and at a loss because of the simple fact they are an idiot to begin with. the one aspect I do find funny, if/when that point arrives, the same people who whined and complained they can't find a GPU for less than $500, will continue to whine and complain they don't feel like paying $150 for the same thing after any mass exit from miners.
     
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  3. xrealm20

    xrealm20 Gawd

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    ^^ Truth

    If the miners wern't buying the cards, the people who whine would find something else to complain about.
     
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  4. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    And herein lies the problem. I have no problem with mining, my problem is with the insane speculation that's ultimately what's driving these supply problems. As long as enough folks think GPUs are printing presses for money when they probably aren't, FOMO will drive irrational choices.
     
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  5. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    "Lisa Su also noted that although it's hard to quantify accurately, crypto mining contributed roughly 10% (or possibly more) of the company's annual revenue"

    10% ha

    Hah hahaha

    90% of AMD Vega adoption was crypto based acquisition. The card basically sucked otherwise. (And I owned 3 - so I’m talking from my own experience and attempts at using them as a gaming card as well.)

    You think people would still be buying RX580s as fast as they could be produced for $450 a pop if crypto wasn’t driving acquisition. You think I would have bought 3 Vegas and 12 RX580 in the last 6 months if Crypto wasn’t driving acquisition. I’m in IT. I know a lot of guys in IT. Of the many IT and gamer people I know in real life ----all, save but one person (and myself), bought AMD cards because of Crypto --- and ONLY because of Crypto. They also bought 6, 8, 12 AMD cards because of Crypto, and they normally wouldn’t have bought any, and these same guys haven’t bought any for 10 years previous (except for the last wave of crypto). Heck when I've had AMD cards for gaming I take rasing every time we attend a LAN party (3-4 times a year). (BUT -- I'll stand by the fact the AMD 285 I owned, and the Fury X I owned were excellent gaming cards! (paired with FreeSync) -- Vega, however, stunk.)


    10%? Absolute Rubbish statement.


    How stupid does AMD think we are? Remember a month or two after launch when AMD Vega 56 cards dropped to $350 new because they couldn’t sell them? What saved them from rotting on store shelves in mass was Cryptonite algorithm - and nothing else. (Monero, ETN, etc)
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  6. triwolf

    triwolf Gawd

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    You are right about the Vega line, crypto definitely drove the sales. And yes, the truth is hard to come by these days, people love to have a narrative that fits their agenda. It's probably more like 60-70% sales due to miners, AMD probably doesn't want to admit it.
     
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  7. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    "A lot" is a meaningless platitude. For instance: 1,000 people is "a lot" but that is nothing compared to 100,000 or 1,000,000. What matters here is what the vast overwhelming majority of people are doing with buttcoins. IOW market actions.

    People by and large are treating it and trading it as if it was a stock + the real world practical connection any of the buttcoins have is tenuous at best so any attempts to portray buttcoins as currency are strained at best.

    What???

    Blockchain is decentralized and "public" but slow and energy intensive bookkeeping. THAT IS ALL IT IS!!

    What real world issues exactly does something like that solve vs existing bookkeeping methods? And be specific. The best application I can think of for something like that is electronic title insurance management and even for something like that blockchain wouldn't be much more useful or better than existing methods for that purpose so why switch??
     
  8. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    That isn't a ripoff. That is how current transactions are handled already in most every currency. Sales tax is a thing after all in most every country. Its just the seller is doing the work and collections instead of yourself when you pay in USD at a normal store or online vendor.

    This is also normal. FOREX trading was always subject to this.

    I'd also point out you're only taxed on gains for capital gains taxes and if you lose money you don't get taxed at all. I'd further point out the peak capital gains tax is taxed at normal tax rates for short term trades which still leaves you with a hefty 60%+ profit margin so you're still making money.

    If you don't know how taxes even work you shouldn't be investing outside of a very safe rated index fund.
     
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  9. sleepeeg3

    sleepeeg3 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Besides Stellar, which is practically free. ...and is likely to be the currency of choice to convert fiat to ANY crypto. Check it out.

    Anything you can think of that currently involves a middle man, smart contracts can replace and would be a safer, faster and less expensive option. Bank transfers, stock exchanges, medical records, gambling, etc. Many banks are already adopting various technologies (NEM, Ripple, Stellar, etc.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  10. trasixes

    trasixes Gawd

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    Not to mention that XRP was built with financial institutions in mind, while Stellar was built for the individual.
     
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  11. os2wiz

    os2wiz Gawd

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    Go right ahead I guess if you are a rich ass and can afford to lose it all, it's your funeral. I will be at the front of the line to buy your mining gpu's for pennies on the dollar.
     
  12. Riptide_NVN

    Riptide_NVN [H]ard|Gawd

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    No it is a ripoff.

    It would be like my employer paying me for my services with a paycheck 12 times a day in a foreign currency and the IRS expecting me to keep a ledger over the year on the USD value for every single one of those 4000 transactions. A USD value against a currency that fluctuates constantly and to a large degree. Your comparison is not even remotely close.

    Worse yet crypto currencies are not anywhere even close to as stable as the USD. You could pay thousands in taxes and then have the value of your coins completely tank. You assume all the risk they get an easy payout. Total bullcrap.
    I would be complaining absolutely ZERO if all I had to do was pay a capital gains tax when I went to convert to USD.

    The article posted earlier just further cements what I stated. And I am going to talk to a CPA next week. If this is as bad as I think it is. Then I'm done mining. For a small time miner I don't think it's worth it unless you commit tax evasion. I'm not willing to go there. Many people are.
     
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  13. trasixes

    trasixes Gawd

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    I'm curious as to when this has ever happened? I've been around crypto a long time, but I've never seen this phenomena - is it something the haters have dreamed up?
     
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  14. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    What part of slow and energy intensive did you not understand?

    And Stellar isn't even using blockchain the way it was pitched as for transfers. Hell they're fairly blunt about it using a centralized "ledger" at each "hub" to speed things up. Do you not understand what that means at all?
     
  15. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    Nope. You don't understand how sales tax, trading, or taxes in general work I guess.

    Again, its just like with sales tax. You pay that all the time on every transaction in most every country. Why in the world would you think it'd be any different with a buttcoin? It is a currency right? You didn't think you'd really get out of paying taxes on any transactions using it did you??

    I'd also point out that actual stock and FOREX traders have been required to keep records of all their trades for tax purposes, why did you think it'd be any different with you? How in the heck do you think taxes in those fields work anyways? If you think they're simpler you got another thing coming.

    Hahahaha again why would you think its any different for you or any buttcoin "trader" when its no different for a stock trader or FOREX trader? Those guys lose their shirts all the time you know. People go bust all the time. Any market comes with risks and with the buttcoins you're essentially gambling anyways since its connection to the real world is tenuous at best and has no real govt backing. So of course the risk would be stupid high by default.

    Exactly what extra taxes do you think you're paying then? Getting charged by a exchange isn't a tax either BTW. That is a cost of doing business.
     
  16. idiomatic

    idiomatic [H]Lite

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    Mining is currently using more power than 12 US states. The resources consumed grow exponentially and in no way justify the benefit. Everyone is trying to justify being in on a scam and trying not to be the one left holding the bag.

    Anyone encouraging people to become involved in a process that consumes exponentially more resources to do something trivial is sketchy as fuck. Nothing of value is being created, just transferred from other people.

    Nobody who says "crypto is the future of money" has explained how it gets around quantum computers wiping out all known crypto currencies. Gold, and cash are not vulnerable to quantum computers discovering every coin instantly or hacking every block-chain.

    People are getting rich by taxing new people getting involved. It immoral, pointless, and a massive environmental disaster.

    That's not even counting the people who aren't recording all their transactions carefully and exposing themselves to massive tax evasion/fraud penalties, and counter-terrorism violations.

    If you truly understand how any of this works, and you persist in encouraging it, may God have mercy on your soul.
     
  17. Riptide_NVN

    Riptide_NVN [H]ard|Gawd

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    I explain exactly how incredibly cumbersome the IRS expectations are with income reporting re: mining. Goes right over his head. Why do I bother any more.
     
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  18. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    Again as I explained: What the IRS is requesting done is neither particularly cumbersome nor unusual nor new. Currency and trading transactions have been handled that way for a long long time now.

    They're treating the buttcoins in the same manner here so you have nothing legit to complain about.
     
  19. Imhotep

    Imhotep Gawd

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    This thread is priceless. I got in last April. and yes as someone earlier mentioned my ROI is a few times over. I dual mined for a few months before it got warm in the north east.. Got a nice chunk of SIA coin while mining ether. I traded 50,000 sia coins when they were $80+ a K of sia.few weeks ago.
    The kicker is that its a shit coin and I made a few $ on it. I'm still sitting on almost 200 K of it. GPU degradation while mining is not the same for everyone. Mine are dusted every two weeks and I make sure they run cooler than 65 C. I was actually surprised when I picked up a few water cooled Vega GPU's by MSI.
    The box states that they are meant to run while gaming for 12 years none stop and 20 Idling. I don't think I will be using any of them in 6 years.
     
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  20. Riptide_NVN

    Riptide_NVN [H]ard|Gawd

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    Lol ok

    There is no way for me to track 4000 plus transactions over the year and their value in USD for every payout individually. The value constantly fluctuates. The transactions are automated and out of my control and there is no automation for reporting either. I have a job I can't babysit this all day.
     
  21. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    You just note the date and time of the transaction along with amounts so either they and/or you can go by the value at that point in time to determine if you made or lost money and by how much on that transaction.

    That is why you save the trade logs, keep records, etc. Again same as it is for any trader or sales transaction.

    I'm starting to think you just didn't know the first thing about all the tax issues involved, jumped in, and now that its looking like you'll have to pay out taxes are panicking a bit.

    Every bubble or boom has its few winners. What matters more is that they also inevitably have a huge number of losers...which is guaranteed by default since bubbles and booms are inherently based either on deception or irrationality.
     
  22. idiomatic

    idiomatic [H]Lite

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    Fortunately there is a neat log of every transaction built right into the coin. You also have a legal obligation to track every asset you buy and sell, and the profit or loss.

    Or move to a country like New Zealand with no capital gains tax.
     
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  23. idiomatic

    idiomatic [H]Lite

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    What did you add to the world? You used a tonne of energy and time to create what?

    Truth is you did that work so that someone would over pay you on the hope that someone would later over pay them. To infinity.
     
  24. Riptide_NVN

    Riptide_NVN [H]ard|Gawd

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    You make it sound so easy to just note the date and time and then look up the value. FOUR THOUSAND times. Manually done. That is an assload of work. There is no automation and no reporting it would have to be done twelve times each day.

    Not even remotely worth it. I'm not even trading either just mining.

    Not every country is taxing this as income either. Not every state has sales tax and some that do have exempt transactions. You know that of course.
     
  25. Riptide_NVN

    Riptide_NVN [H]ard|Gawd

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    What percent of total world energy output goes to mining? Not per capita figures but percentage of total. Thanks
     
  26. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    Dude I used to trade in precious metals. Both physical delivery of PM's and by way of "paper gold" stocks of sorts several years ago. I wasn't a pro, certainly never a expert, but point is I'm not and wasn't a noob either. I know what you have to do and 4,000 transactions is no big deal. You can bang it out into a spreadsheet in a few days by yourself.

    Its tedious? Yeah. But its very doable. Next time just document all this stuff at the time of the transaction into a spreadsheet and you won't have to worry about it.

    Most do. The US certainly does. You know this as well of course. You probably just figured it wouldn't or couldn't apply to buttcoins for some reason even though they were pitched as a currency.

    Then that gets taxed as regular income so what is the big deal here? You'd still be required to note sale date and transaction amounts for your gain/loss balance sheet. Which is also something that isn't unusual or onerous to do and is something that is normally done by any other business that makes and/or sells stuff.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  27. Riptide_NVN

    Riptide_NVN [H]ard|Gawd

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    What is needed is software to make it easier to do. If I have to do it by hand it's more work than I want to deal with.

    I would need to know the amount and time of each payout and then manually check all twelve against the day's value at each point in time they correlate to. That seems like a pita to me.

    Maybe someone that comes up with software to do this will make a few bucks.

    Most businesses are not doing transaction tracking by hand. With this I have no choice that I'm aware of. Not the same.
     
  28. Imhotep

    Imhotep Gawd

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    Haha, this is getting even better. We are getting the environmentalists involved as well. Let me ask you. How do you contribute to the society by overclocking your CPU, GPU and memory for a few extra frames ?
     
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  29. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    Just hire someone who knows how to do taxes and have them do it for you if you can't be bothered then. Most do that anyways.
     
  30. Decko87

    Decko87 [H]ard|Gawd

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    People don't mine bit coin, alt coins are still lucrative.
     
  31. Riptide_NVN

    Riptide_NVN [H]ard|Gawd

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    You'd still need to manually record the exact time and date of the 4000 transactions for the year. They have no way of getting an automated report out of the block chain that would export a csv. The pools don't send you anything or have any reporting. Most wallets I've seen don't keep much data either and have no way to export.

    Clearly there is a need for some type of software to automate this. I guarantee my broker doesn't do this by hand all day long.
     
  32. mesyn191

    mesyn191 2[H]4U

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    "All" the coins are being priced against or traded into Bitcoin though so they get effected heavily by any changes in price of Bitcoin.

    It'd be like if the Euro or USD tanked everyone else's currency would be effected quite a bit too.

    Which again is easily doable over a few days. Many businesses will do well over 4,000 transactions a month BTW. Same goes for traders. You keep acting like that is some impossible or unusual amount and its not. Its small potatoes.
     
  33. idiomatic

    idiomatic [H]Lite

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    But your broker does it, because your broker doesn't like jail.

    Bitcoin types think that enough encryption will magically stop the government from being in charge.

    https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png
     
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  34. Riptide_NVN

    Riptide_NVN [H]ard|Gawd

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    Exactly why the value of alts tumble right along with BTC.

    BTC is kinda a dinosaur. A lot of people would like to see eth take over the role it currently fills.
     
  35. idiomatic

    idiomatic [H]Lite

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    "Analysis of how much energy it currently requires to mine bitcoin suggest that it is greater than the current energy consumption of 159 individual countries"

    http://www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-mining-track-consume-worlds-energy-2020-744036

    Currently at 47 TWhs annually and climbing exponentially.

    https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

    With zero benefit.
     
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  36. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Where do all these N00bie posters come from that spam endless messages about the doom of crypto? Seems I see it in every crypto thread these days. Who has time for that? Do you just create accounts in every hardware forum on the web? Are you trying to short Crypto and buy it all when you change the tide?

    Who employs you?
     
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  37. Riptide_NVN

    Riptide_NVN [H]ard|Gawd

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    4000 transactions a month unusual for a business or broker? Of course not. Are they doing that by hand? No. Is that their day job? Mostly yes.

    I have no automation or reporting tools. They do. I work a job. That is all part of their job.

    Manually doing this is possible I'm not denying reality. But it does suck. And may suck badly enough I don't wanna deal. That said maybe I'll give it a try again and see for myself first hand. My first attempt didn't go well.
     
  38. Riptide_NVN

    Riptide_NVN [H]ard|Gawd

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    .21% total world power

    Whoopty doo

    Thanks for finding the figures .I tried in the past but failed. My bad.
     
  39. idiomatic

    idiomatic [H]Lite

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    Tell me, how long can crypto exponentially expand power consumption for? How long can it exponentially expand its consumption of chips?

    How much will it use when "everybody uses crypto for everything"?

    Or is somebody selling a line of horseshit. In the short term its unsustainable as a technology, in the long term it gets wiped out by quantum. At no point is it anything other than trying to get other people to give them money for complex snake-oil.
     
  40. idiomatic

    idiomatic [H]Lite

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    Its growing as an exponential. That should scare the shit out of you unless you think its not really going to be a global currency replacement, in which case its a short term money grab.