Bitcoin Tumbles Again, Loses a Quarter of Its Value during Thanksgiving Week

pleaee now you knwo better to inveistn in SBC (sven BEtn coins)

you dont need expensive hardware and iw will ive you 90% discouns
1 SBC for 50cents
Ccurrent rate is 5us dollars... i swear
and the rate cna only go up because i control it 100%
 
Nukester said:
When it goes down another $3799.00 then it will be priced about right.
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It’s a great time to buy. Analyst predict it’ll be $100,000 in 2021!

5B55C128-88CB-4829-A9AA-416559259C99.png
 
What happened to Bitcoin reaching 100k per Bitcoin?

I have a friend that was well invested into Bitcoin, I do feel bad for him.
 
BladeDancer314 said:
What happened to Bitcoin reaching 100k per Bitcoin?

I have a friend that was well invested into Bitcoin, I do feel bad for him.
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I don't care if they invest and loose their money.
The ones who annoy me are the people who go on long winded rants like an evangelical side walk preacher.
It's AMWAY, the way I look at it.

Once the SEC looks under the skirt, they all run like rats
 
HockeyJon said:
Yeah that’s what people claimed, but it was obviously BS due to the fact that forking is a thing. I remember Charlie Munger pointing that out a long time ago but, you know, the Bitcoin twitterverse dismisses “old guard” thinking from guys like Munger because they’re oh so paranoid about Bitcoin taking over, or something like that.

But seriously, anyone who knows anything about how currency works would understand that you have to expand the money supply as the economy grows. The idea that Bitcoin would be limited in terms of supply is not a beneficial feature, it’s a fatal design flaw that should be obvious to anyone who understands the fact that the economy typically grows over time.
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I agree with you. The fact that bitcoins ‘value’ is based solely on scarcity and the speculation of its future value make it pretty worthless as a currency. If you think of bitcoin as a commodity it makes slightly more sense. It’s a bit like oil, prices can fluctuate pretty wildly over time. There’s no base fundamental need for bitcoin like there is for oil however, so the bottom for bitcoin is literally 0. And 0 is right where it belongs.
 
Much of the pro-crypto sentiment seems to arise from the belief that fiat currency is a scam which exists solely to facilitate the government robbing its citizens.

Like most misconceptions, this contains a kernel of truth. After all, fiat currency can, when mismanaged, do catastrophic damage to a country's economy. But here's the thing: Most tools can be misused, but that doesn't make them evil. Fiat currency is no different, as any serious student of economics and history will know.

Of course, this is the part where we're we're usually told that we're ignorant sheep, and that traditional education is designed to keep us from learning "the truth." Add concern trolling and dire prognostication to taste.
 
gamerk2 said:
Not true; due to increasing difficulty of future hashes, processing requirements (and thus, energy requirements) will continue to go up, making any form of mining unsustainable over the long term. There's already communities that are putting extra surcharges on miners because they simply can't meet their energy demands.

Nevermind the long-term problem that all these coins have: As the blockchain gets larger, it becomes harder and harder to actually store it in it's entirety. What happens when the blockchain size reaches hundreds of Gigabytes? Terabytes? Exabytes?

As a currency, blockchain has already failed. All it is now is an investment tool.
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Difficulty can go down, way down depending upon block times - less hash power being used, block times go up, Blockchain will readjust by decreasing the difficulty level to maintain consistent block times. Difficulty level is determine by how fast the blocks are being done - the difficulty level could go down so that even CPU's could mine Bitcoins again like before if all the ASICs in the world ceased to exist or were turned off. If just CPU's maintained Bitcoin Blockchain it will still be just as secure as it is today as a note. So energy levels do not have to consistently go up, in fact I bet they are going down now with the lower value of Bitcoin where folks will be pulling the plug or diverting to some other coin.
 
bugleyman said:
Much of the pro-crypto sentiment seems to arise from the belief that fiat currency is a scam which exists solely to facilitate the government robbing its citizens.

Like most misconceptions, this contains a kernel of truth. After all, fiat currency can, when mismanaged, do catastrophic damage to a country's economy. But here's the thing: Most tools can be misused, but that doesn't make them evil. Fiat currency is no different, as any serious student of economics and history will know.

Of course, this is the part where we're we're usually told that we're ignorant sheep, and that traditional education is designed to keep us from learning "the truth." Add concern trolling and dire prognostication to taste.
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You know little about fiat.
Read Modern Money Mechanics by the Chicago Federal Reserve itself, then re-read your post.
 
Methos said:
I agree with you. The fact that bitcoins ‘value’ is based solely on scarcity and the speculation of its future value make it pretty worthless as a currency. If you think of bitcoin as a commodity it makes slightly more sense. It’s a bit like oil, prices can fluctuate pretty wildly over time. There’s no base fundamental need for bitcoin like there is for oil however, so the bottom for bitcoin is literally 0. And 0 is right where it belongs.
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I’m not even sure it fits as a commodity. It trades like a commodity, but physically, is it a commodity? Oil I can use to lubricante machinery and refine to gasoline to make my car go. Bitcoin I can use to...ummm...I mean I guess some enthusiasts will accept it as payment, but those same guys will also take US Dollars if I offer them.

None of this is to say that it’s not an interesting proof of concept, but the value there is in the technology, not the coin. This will require central bank backing before it ever hits the mainstream, once again defeating yet another supposed Bitcoin value proposition (decentralization and lack of regulation).
 
N4CR said:
You know little about fiat.
Read Modern Money Mechanics by the Chicago Federal Reserve itself, then re-read your post.
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What about it?

'Go read a book!' Is not an argument, and just glancing through it on Wikibooks it backs up bugleyman's post.

What Makes Money Valuable?
In the United States neither paper currency nor deposits have value as commodities. Intrinsically, a dollar bill is just a piece of paper, deposits merely book entries. Coins do have some intrinsic value as metal, but generally far less than their face value.

What, then, makes these instruments — checks, paper money, and coins — acceptable at face value in payment of all debts and for other monetary uses? Mainly, it is the confidence people have that they will be able to exchange such money for other financial assets and for real goods and services whenever they choose to do so.

Money, like anything else, derives its value from its scarcity in relation to its usefulness. Commodities or services are more or less valuable because there are more or less of them relative to the amounts people want. Money's usefulness is its unique ability to command other goods and services and to permit a holder to be constantly ready to do so. How much money is demanded depends on several factors, such as the total volume of transactions in the economy at any given time, the payments habits of the society, the amount of money that individuals and businesses want to keep on hand to take care of unexpected transactions, and the forgone earnings of holding financial assets in the form of money rather than some other asset.

Control of the quantity of money is essential if its value is to be kept stable. Money's real value can be measured only in terms of what it will buy. Therefore, its value varies inversely with the general level of prices. Assuming a constant rate of use, if the volume of money grows more rapidly than the rate at which the output of real goods and services increases, prices will rise. This will happen because there will be more money than there will be goods and services to spend it on at prevailing prices. But if, on the other hand, growth in the supply of money does not keep pace with the economy's current production, then prices will fall, the nations's labor force, factories, and other production facilities will not be fully employed, or both.
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Fractional reserve banking is how we adjust the money supply to smooth out the economic cycle and eliminate the disruptive booms and busts that were inherent to gold/silver standard economies to create stable currencies.

Bitcoin has no such control. Deflation under Bitcoin is even worse than the gold standard. When Bitcoin mining became too difficult/the price got too high we saw people generate an endless array of altcoins and forks to keep the bubble going. With fiat money I can't just go out and print DogeDollars or EtherEuros, and because the money supply is controlled you don't get deflationary situations where everyone just sits on their money. Sure, governments can collapse or mismanage their fiat currencies, but short of a nuclear war I can be confident that the value of a dollar or euro or whatever will remain stable for day-to-day transactions.

There's no denying that the land and economic output of a nation has some sort of value which translates into confidence in national currencies. Bitcoin is only backed by blockchain hype. I don't feel sorry for anyone who lost their shirt in this scam because it's been painfully obvious to many of us for some time that the people buying into blockchain hype had no idea what they were really investing in, let alone basic economics.
 
Boom and bust seem to be inherent in nature like day and night, summer and winter, warming period and ice age. Fiat currencies haven't stopped economic booms & busts, e.g. 80s dereg, 90s dotcom, 00s housing, and now. (;
 
nomas said:
Boom and bust seem to be inherent in nature like day and night, summer and winter, warming period and ice age. Fiat currencies haven't stopped economic booms & busts, e.g. 80s dereg, 90s dotcom, 00s housing, and now. (;
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Well thank god we made stock buybacks legal, got rid of Glass Steagall, and bailed out the institutions whose fraud almost crashed the economy with nobody going to jail to smooth out those bumps!

That's the thing about crypto v. fiat. There's a strong argument saying crypto is insane. There's also a strong argument that they way we're handling fiat is insane.
 
bugleyman said:
Much of the pro-crypto sentiment seems to arise from the belief that fiat currency is a scam which exists solely to facilitate the government robbing its citizens.

Like most misconceptions, this contains a kernel of truth. After all, fiat currency can, when mismanaged, do catastrophic damage to a country's economy. But here's the thing: Most tools can be misused, but that doesn't make them evil. Fiat currency is no different, as any serious student of economics and history will know.

Of course, this is the part where we're we're usually told that we're ignorant sheep, and that traditional education is designed to keep us from learning "the truth." Add concern trolling and dire prognostication to taste.
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and then the pro-crypto crowd forks the coin
tetris42 said:
Well thank god we made stock buybacks legal, got rid of Glass Steagall, and bailed out the institutions whose fraud almost crashed the economy with nobody going to jail to smooth out those bumps!

That's the thing about crypto v. fiat. There's a strong argument saying crypto is insane. There's also a strong argument that they way we're handling fiat is insane.
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Nice strawman you built there.
 
opfreak said:
Nice strawman you built there.
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It wasn't intended that way, I was mostly agreeing with him. His point is booms and busts happen, and then the examples he gives for finance illustrate just how precariously it's being handled as time goes on. I was sarcastically pointing out how we didn't fix anything, meaning it's very unstable also.
 
d3athf1sh said:
why do you think there will be a recession? just curious.
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A few reasons. The simplest (and lead scientific one) is the US averages one recession per decade, so we're about due. Aside from that, the main drivers include inflation rising faster then incomes (which itself is a major warning siren as this infers something is majorly out of whack), a return to subprime lending (see those new 84-month auto loans they're handing out to hide the increased cost of vehicles?), and a general lack of growth across several major industries. I'm fully expecting a recession within the next 18-24 month period; I just see too many little things for me to believe one isn't on it's way.
 
gamerk2 said:
A few reasons. The simplest (and lead scientific one) is the US averages one recession per decade, so we're about due. Aside from that, the main drivers include inflation rising faster then incomes (which itself is a major warning siren as this infers something is majorly out of whack), a return to subprime lending (see those new 84-month auto loans they're handing out to hide the increased cost of vehicles?), and a general lack of growth across several major industries. I'm fully expecting a recession within the next 18-24 month period; I just see too many little things for me to believe one isn't on it's way.
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Just because a lender offers a longer term isn't an indicator of a subprime lending trend.

Making the loan to buyers with poor income to debt ratios is.
 
The way my opinion is shaping on this:
Lookin' like nVidia's gamble on high cryptocurrency prices so they can price gouge their new RTX series ABOVE their *already gouged* MSRP has backfired...LOLOLOL.
 
HockeyJon said:
I’m not even sure it fits as a commodity. It trades like a commodity, but physically, is it a commodity? Oil I can use to lubricante machinery and refine to gasoline to make my car go. Bitcoin I can use to...ummm...I mean I guess some enthusiasts will accept it as payment, but those same guys will also take US Dollars if I offer them.
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It's not, it is pure gambling/speculation at this point. As you say, an actual commodity is something that has some use. How much use varies, some commodities like gold have little real use compared to their value, but still. They are all real things with real uses. So ya, you are trading in the same fashion of "buy it and hope that the next person wants it more and will pay more" but ultimately you have something that has value to people. Bitcoin has none of that. It is just a digital ledger with value only because speculators like it.

So basically it has all of the downsides of commodities trading, of which there are many, and none of the upsides.
 
motomonkey said:
Just because a lender offers a longer term isn't an indicator of a subprime lending trend.

Making the loan to buyers with poor income to debt ratios is.
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Which is exactly what's happening.

Coincidentally, defaults are up too.
 
Sycraft said:
It's not, it is pure gambling/speculation at this point. As you say, an actual commodity is something that has some use. How much use varies, some commodities like gold have little real use compared to their value, but still. They are all real things with real uses. So ya, you are trading in the same fashion of "buy it and hope that the next person wants it more and will pay more" but ultimately you have something that has value to people. Bitcoin has none of that. It is just a digital ledger with value only because speculators like it.

So basically it has all of the downsides of commodities trading, of which there are many, and none of the upsides.
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You can counterfeit most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can steal most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can confiscate most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can burn in a fire, or damage with flood, most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can ultimately lose worth in your physical thing of value for reasons beyond your control (Stock in Subway/spokesperson Jared Fogel, German Reichmark, Roman Aes, etc)

To say bitcoin has no value isn't true. It has a different kind of value.
 
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Archaea said:
You can counterfeit most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can steal most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can confiscate most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can burn in a fire, or damage with flood, most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can ultimately lose worth in your physical thing of value for reasons beyond your control (Stock in Subway/spokesperson Jared Fogel, German Reichmark, Roman Aes, etc)

To say bitcoin has no value isn't true. It has a different kind of value.
Click to expand...

LOL...sounds like it doesn't exist at all. I wonder how that bitycoin will work out for you in the apocalypse with no electricity.
 
Archaea said:
You can counterfeit most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can steal most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can confiscate most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can burn in a fire, or damage with flood, most physical things of value - not bitcoin
You can ultimately lose worth in your physical thing of value for reasons beyond your control (Stock in Subway/spokesperson Jared Fogel, German Reichmark, Roman Aes, etc)

To say bitcoin has no value isn't true. It has a different kind of value.
Click to expand...
If you can’t “steal” bitcoin, then how have so many people “lost” it magically ? MT gox? I can’t tell you how many stories I’ve seen in the last 2-3 years of people being bilked outright from their btc. Perhaps steal is the wrong terminology, but PLENTY of people have had theirs taken. And seemingly with no accountability. If crypto is so fool proof, I’d expect some accountability and answers. Never has been. Just oops, this exchange just lost 5000btc from random customers. Into the black void. And with nothing restore the value lost to the customer.
 
Bowman15 said:
LOL...sounds like it doesn't exist at all. I wonder how that butycoin will work out for you in the apocolypse with no electricity.
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Are you saying that factitious point where there is no electricity across the entire world?

Ironically you just hit on it's greatest strength... Thanks for playing...


A) it'll resume exactly where it left off when electricity is restored -- with as few as three generic/basic computers. If electricity isn't lost world wide (literally world wide) then it will continue as if nothing ever happened. USA and Russia and China all blown up by Nuclear holocaust? Bitcoin survives easily. How much will your US dollar be worth if the US is blown up?


B) In this whole world lost electricity setting, what currency do you possess that will retain it's value. I'd suggest the best currency you could have in that situation would be a S&W and some ammunition. I read of a study the US Government sanctioned that said if electricity was lost over the whole of the United States for just a single year, 80% of the US population would die.
 
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jmilcher said:
If you can’t “steal” bitcoin, then how have so many people “lost” it magically ? MT gox? I can’t tell you how many stories I’ve seen in the last 2-3 years of people being bilked outright from their btc. Perhaps steal is the wrong terminology, but PLENTY of people have had theirs taken. And seemingly with no accountability. If crypto is so fool proof, I’d expect some accountability and answers. Never has been. Just oops, this exchange just lost 5000btc from random customers. Into the black void. And with nothing restore the value lost to the customer.
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Generally it’s someone that hacks an exchange that was setup poor or an inside job. It’s like giving cash to an unregulated stock market and their vault gets robbed.

AFAIK coinbase and US based exchanges have to be insured.
 
Dayaks said:
Generally it’s someone that hacks an exchange that was setup poor or an inside job. It’s like giving cash to an unregulated stock market and their vault gets robbed.

AFAIK coinbase and US based exchanges have to be insured.
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So basically it was stolen. Inside job, hackers, whatever. The bank was robbed.

No thanks. There will always be a crypto evangelist or two on the forum. I have never regretted not investing into this. I’m sure a few have made money, but most are just blocks in a pyramid.
 
jmilcher said:
If you can’t “steal” bitcoin, then how have so many people “lost” it magically ? MT gox? I can’t tell you how many stories I’ve seen in the last 2-3 years of people being bilked outright from their btc. Perhaps steal is the wrong terminology, but PLENTY of people have had theirs taken. And seemingly with no accountability. If crypto is so fool proof, I’d expect some accountability and answers. Never has been. Just oops, this exchange just lost 5000btc from random customers. Into the black void. And with nothing restore the value lost to the customer.
Click to expand...


In the world of crypto currency if you don't own the private key (of the public key private key keychain infrastructure) then you don't own the crypto. In those exchange situations, the private keys are housed at the exchanges and the exchanges are hacked. To put it the more common stated way.

Not your private key? Not your bitcoin.

Since there is no central authority managing bitcoin, there is no one to plead to for retribution. You are your own Bank. Can't handle your own security, don't be your own Bank. Let others manage your private key at your own peril.

If you keep your own digital currency wallet, and protect your private keys - it can't be stolen.

Theft happens because the private key is stolen by hackers, or the exchange was shady and stole the value invested.

The currency itself, the cryptography, the math behind bitcoin hasn't been hacked. (BTW - don't group all cryptocurrency with bitcoin - they are all distinct). There is always that risk, as in anything with cryptography, but as time continues to pass since Bitcoins release in 2008 and no hack is found - then the System continually has proven it's merit.
 
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Archaea said:
Are you saying that factitious point where there is no electricity across the entire world?

Ironically you just hit on it's greatest strength... Thanks for playing...


A) it'll resume exactly where it left off when electricity is restored -- with as few as three computers. If electricity isn't lost world wide (literally world wide) then it will continue as if nothing ever happened. USA and Russia and China all blown up by Nuclear holocaust? Bitcoin survives easily. How much will your US dollar be worth if the US is blown up?


B) In this whole world lost electricity setting, what currency do you possess that will retain it's value. I'd suggest the best currency you could have in that situation would be a S&W and some ammunition. I read of a study the US Government sanctioned that said if electricity was lost over the whole of the United States for just a single year, 80% of the US population would die.
Click to expand...

If the world goes nuclear then bitcoin will be worth less than a scrap of that greenback paper. Know why? I can wipe my ass with it at least, can't do that with bitcoins now can you..
 
jmilcher said:
So basically it was stolen. Inside job, hackers, whatever. The bank was robbed.

No thanks. There will always be a crypto evangelist or two on the forum. I have never regretted not investing into this. I’m sure a few have made money, but most are just blocks in a pyramid.
Click to expand...

Yeah I said the vault was robbed lol. But if you use something like coinbase they have FDIC insurance just like a normal bank up to $250k. If you use the shady out of country exchange well... just like a normal bank, store your cash in Nigeria you had it coming.

And it’s not a pyramid at all. Maybe a social experiment / human psychology experiment.

I only dabbled in mining and made around $10k, worth it.
 
Archaea said:
Are you saying that factitious point where there is no electricity across the entire world?

Ironically you just hit on it's greatest strength... Thanks for playing...


A) it'll resume exactly where it left off when electricity is restored -- with as few as three generic/basic computers. If electricity isn't lost world wide (literally world wide) then it will continue as if nothing ever happened. USA and Russia and China all blown up by Nuclear holocaust? Bitcoin survives easily. How much will your US dollar be worth if the US is blown up?


B) In this whole world lost electricity setting, what currency do you possess that will retain it's value. I'd suggest the best currency you could have in that situation would be a S&W and some ammunition. I read of a study the US Government sanctioned that said if electricity was lost over the whole of the United States for just a single year, 80% of the US population would die.
Click to expand...

If you mean its "greatest strengths" as in reality its biggest weakness then I agree with you. The strongest currency and barter system will always be physical goods, always. Food, precious metals, weapons, etc...You evangelists make for good laughs with these arguments I'll give you that!

it'll resume exactly where it left off when electricity is restored -- with as few as three generic/basic computers.
Click to expand...

Looks like you have the numbers all worked out...:LOL:
 
I wouldn't put all my money into it by any stretch of the imagination, but I have a few thousand in it. I view it as a different kind of investment or currency vehicle. I've lost more money than I have invested in Crypto in the regular stock market to be sure. I like the concepts of independent, secure, distributed store of value, tied to no specific government. This may be an early, first, version of an ultimate successor that the world comes to rely on as a global currency.
 
Bowman15,

Marking me as a Cryptoevangelist, is silly. I've never tried to get anyone to buy it. In fact, when anyone asks me if they should buy some, because they've heard through the grapevine I am involved in mining it, I tell them they should do their own research and always tell them of all the potential risks and current volatility. My path has been a very cautious one. Most people are ignorant of everything crypto, and either dismiss it without knowledge, or jump in head first trying to make a quick buck. I joined the party only last year after my own personal Research. I think it has long term merits, but more importantly there is a VAST amount of misinformation out there on it - repeated day in and day out - by people who haven't even done a modicum of research -- as evidenced in this very thread.
 
Archaea said:
this may be an early, first, version of an ultimate successor that the world comes to rely on as a global currency.
Click to expand...

It's this right here that is horse shit. Ultimately no government is going to reliquish control of their FIAT in favor of a global crypto currency as the standard of currency. They start wars over that kind of thing. Other than that though, your pretty much spot on.
 
Aireoth said:
It's this right here that is horse shit. Ultimately no government is going to reliquish control of their FIAT in favor of a global crypto currency as the standard of currency. They start wars over that kind of thing. Other than that though, your pretty much spot on.
Click to expand...
Mcafee's a whack job these days, but I agree with him on one thing for certain. Governments can't control it. It's Pandora's box. The United States government, the most powerful government in the world cannot kill bitcoin. No single government can, no tribunal of government can. It's unstoppable so long as there is electricity and internet, and the worldwide audience, because it can continue to exist underground and in places they cannot extend their authority. I'm just noting it might not (probably won't) be bitcoin that is ultimately plays out to be the final champion. So while they may not be willing to allow a crypto currency to take over their own fiat, they may not have a choice.

Many central governments are exploring blockchain/cryptocurrency as a fiat replacement. Even the Federal Reserve of the United States is exploring the concept, and has published several papers publicly stating such.

And ultimately it may not fully replace. It may just supplement. Much in the same way a person may own multiple currencies that establish value in the market they want to use. Crypto becomes just one of those currencies.

Aireoth
Start at 8:56
 
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Archaea said:
Mcafee's a whack job these days, but I agree with him on one thing for certain. Governments can't control it. It's Pandora's box. The United States government, the most powerful government in the world cannot kill bitcoin. No single government can.
Click to expand...

Until it becomes a large enough threat, and then they can. Then at very best you have a new digital version of the drug trade.

Asemetrical attacks would destory crypto (taking control of the exchanges, hacking and steeling the coins, hording them) there is more than one way to skin a cat. Maybe the US, run by a bunch of old men, can't, but there are lots of other nations out there that are very skilled at this kind of warfare.
 
Aireoth said:
Asemetrical attacks would destory crypto (taking control of the exchanges, hacking and steeling the coins, hording them) there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Click to expand...

Then as stated in Post 71 - people steer clear of using exchanges and manage their own keys. Unless you just take away the internet and VPN ability - how can you control it? And can any modern first world country take their efforts to that level?
 
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