Bitcoin miners leave China for US

pendragon1 said:

"Chinese Miners Airlift 3 Tonnes of Graphics Cards and ASICs to Maryland, USA"​

this doesnt say anything about selling them, it clearly says shipping and then this part:
"According to sources, even before the collective blackout of the mines was announced in Sichuan, miners had already started moving their equipment to other countries, including Russia, Kazakhstan, and the United States."

so it sounds like they are moving to me. also, the thread title is "moving" not "selling"...

last point, depends on who youre talking to....
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It doesn't say anything because the person that wrote a speculative article based on a speculative tweet doesn't actually know anything.

My statement is based on observing discussions among large mining operators on public and private forums and discords - mining hardware is being liquidated by owners in China and shipped to the highest bidders in various countries. "Chinese people invading maryland" isn't what's happening here.
 
DPI said:
It doesn't say anything because the person that wrote a speculative article based on a speculative tweet doesn't actually know anything.

My statement is based on observing discussions among large mining operators on public and private forums and discords - mining hardware is being liquidated by owners in China and shipped to the highest bidders in various countries. "Chinese people invading maryland" isn't what's happening here.
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ok dirty miner, chill.

never said there was an invasion either...
 
Axman said:
Seems like control or tax would be hard unless they're behind it, which I'll absolutely concede is possible.
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Actually the easiest thing for a government to do is require people to self report possession and use - including profits made.
Make failure to report a simple felony and most will comply. Then publicly embarrass and imprison a few who fail to do so during the first year or so and you will have 95% of the population toeing the line.

To catch the next 2.5% you make 'hiding profits /tax evasion' a bigger felony with massive penalties, with bonuses and promotion for law enforcement and bounties for tips leading to successful prosecution...

Problem solved
 
Marees said:
A logistics firm from Guangzhou, Fenghua International has confirmed to CNBC that it’s airlifting 3,000 kg (3 tonnes) of mining machines including graphics cards and ASICs to Maryland, USA. The firm advertises door-to-door delivery with prices as low as $9.37 per kg, including taxes on both ends.

https://www.hardwaretimes.com/chine...o-maryland-usa/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Mayland and Texas are two states most suited to the needs of miners due to cheap electricity and a sparse population.

The province of Inner Mongolia, Sichuan, and Guangzhou have straight up banned the practice, with the authorities even cutting off power to the farms.
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I guess they're hoping that most people wont know which delivery trucks have these on board. How many people would love to hijack them and sell the video cards? lol
 
Verge said:
The USD isn't backed by banks.
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30ade48b-0aac-4bda-a0d6-86fee954d206_text.gif
 
On June 5, 1933, the United States went off the gold standard, a monetary system in which currency is backed by gold, when Congress enacted a joint resolution nullifying the right of creditors to demand payment in gold.

and

President Richard Nixon announcing the severing of links between the dollar and gold as part of a broad economic plan on Aug. 15, 1971

so, most of you reading this, werent even born before Nixon made this change. and you would need to be 78 to be born before the usa went off the gold standard.

all currencies have been fiat for a LONG time.
 
sunruh said:
so, most of you reading this, werent even born before Nixon made this change. and you would need to be 78 to be born before the usa went off the gold standard.
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Actually, they would have to be 88 since it went through in 1933, and the only people who would actually remember it happening would be over 100 now.
The rest is correct.
 
Red Falcon said:
Actually, they would have to be 88 since it went through in 1933, and the only people who would actually remember it happening would be over 100 now.
The rest is correct.
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yes i virtualized a decade there ;) ooops

yeah you'd have to be 98ish to even have a thought about it and more importantly have been in a family that even knew. the usa population was 125mil in 1933. which is barely more than tx,ca,ny,fl is now.
 
Comixbooks said:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mar...rencies-liquidated/ar-AARsI0E?ocid=uxbndlbing

Get this Fake stuff out of here!!! Sure Bitcoin is worth money because people are liquidating it into cash gold and maybe Nvidia cards
Without currency and banks to back it up it wouldn't be worth anything. All Hype...
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Part of me feels this is a sarcastic post... but it's still early(ish) here so not quite sure, but I'll throw in a reply as if this is a very serious post.

...

So it's basically like the majority of money flow in the country, which is the stock market, which is all fake stuff, sure people can liquidate into cash, gold, or other stocks, but ultimately nothing is backing the value of it. Sure there's the SEC but if shenangans occur they go after the company who did this you as an individual are still going to lose everything.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Part of me feels this is a sarcastic post... but it's still early(ish) here so not quite sure, but I'll throw in a reply as if this is a very serious post.

...

So it's basically like the majority of money flow in the country, which is the stock market, which is all fake stuff, sure people can liquidate into cash, gold, or other stocks, but ultimately nothing is backing the value of it. Sure there's the SEC but if shenangans occur they go after the company who did this you as an individual are still going to lose everything.
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1. the stock market is intangible but not fake. Stocks are linked to underlying assets (companies, their performance, physical assets, etc), there is an arguement over valuation, which is where the speculative end of the stock market exists. Almost all coins are linked to zero underlying assets, they are entirely speculative, some coins try to get around this, but when talking about bitcoin and ETH which most people think of, its all speculative.

Your claim that nothing of value backs stocks is catagorically incorrect and gaslighting at worst.

2. The SEC regulates the market, again you can make arguments towards the effectiveness of the SEC but they do actually regulate things. Of course they do not regulate the speculative nature of the market, so if and when something occurs the value that the normal person receives is based on actual underlying values not the speculated price.
 
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Axman said:
I don't buy it. Not for a second.

If I were running industrial-level mining farms I'd look to a place with lower energy prices, lower costs of incorporation, less regulation, and easier-to-influence authorities.

The United States isn't looking like a crypto currency safe haven. You'd think they'd be headed to Iceland or Finland, or even Russia. Not the US.
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Considering how in bed the US is with China now they’re probably going to get all kinds of deals.
 
Opec is the value of a Dollar .. also to Build back Better means the new Owners (China) needs everything updated for the Land Lord that Wal - Mart helped bring to America (Great Wal of China)
 
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Aireoth said:
1. the stock market is intangible but not fake. Stocks are linked to underlying assets (companies, their performance, physical assets, etc), there is an arguement over valuation, which is where the speculative end of the stock market exists. Coins are linked to zero underlying assets, they are entirely speculative, some coins try to get around this, but when talking about bitcoin and ETH which most people think of, its all speculative.
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To be slightly more accurate stocks are non-real, but productive assets. A real asset is something where you actually own a thing, like property, or gold. A productive asset is one where it generates income/returns like a stock or rental property. Real, productive assets, like rental properties, are very high quality assets and hence very desirable and something you don't tend to make big returns on. Non-real, productive assets are also high quality, if the underlying company is good. Higher risk, but so long as it stays productive you are likely to make money. Real, non-productive assets are better as hedges than investments. They don't tend to do as good with returns, but also don't tend to drop to zero since you actually own something tangible.

However things that are both non-real and non-productive? Those aren't very high quality. There's nothing keeping it from going up in smoke. Things like options, and crypto. You can make big returns if you get lucky but you can easily lose everything. It is really more gambling than investing when you buy things like that because you don't actually own anything real, and there's no income generation so any increase in value is just from the next guy wanting it more than you.
 
Sycraft said:
To be slightly more accurate stocks are non-real, but productive assets. A real asset is something where you actually own a thing, like property, or gold. A productive asset is one where it generates income/returns like a stock or rental property. Real, productive assets, like rental properties, are very high quality assets and hence very desirable and something you don't tend to make big returns on. Non-real, productive assets are also high quality, if the underlying company is good. Higher risk, but so long as it stays productive you are likely to make money. Real, non-productive assets are better as hedges than investments. They don't tend to do as good with returns, but also don't tend to drop to zero since you actually own something tangible.

However things that are both non-real and non-productive? Those aren't very high quality. There's nothing keeping it from going up in smoke. Things like options, and crypto. You can make big returns if you get lucky but you can easily lose everything. It is really more gambling than investing when you buy things like that because you don't actually own anything real, and there's no income generation so any increase in value is just from the next guy wanting it more than you.
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Stocks are still tied to assets, unlike crypto.
 
Aireoth said:
Stocks are still tied to assets, unlike crypto.
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What does this have to do with the Topic?

Interesting that miners from China going to Texas, does Texas have incentives for miners to go to? How does a business in China just leaves China and automatically is accepted in the US to set up shop?

As more and more countries are more international, a better form of money, free flowing, faster and not controlled by any one government maybe the preferred wave of the future. Credit companies do rather well with the richer countries for transactions but for many countries the banking system is hugely undependable, fradulatant, slow and for many not even accessible. Add in very poorly run monetary systems of different countries will most likely be the driving force for Crypto and the different ways (Mining, Staking) to support the new financial exchange methods. Metaverse is an all encompassing, global type environment that current money systems would not support well. I am sure governments will try to control Crypto as time goes on and willl most likely fail. If China did not even put a dent into Crypto, that speaks rather loudly overall the progression of Crypto over time.
 
Aireoth said:
If you would follow the chain you'd know instead of jumping in for some reason.
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I did, how about you put forth your silly little arguments in the Crypto Section?

Texas is proactive it appears, looking ahead and being prudent on an explosive future dealing with Crypto or maybe should be called new money:

https://screenrant.com/texas-next-big-bitcoin-hub-mining-incentives-benefits-concerns/

Texas smart policies is probably a good driving force bringing in a growing industry or should I say finance system.
 
Aireoth said:
Ok bye Noko.
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Thanks for leaving, as for being backed, here are some that are backed by Gold, Others are backed by $, others by contracts, others with assets. Of course people can put value on anything, even an idea. If two people are willing to trade something with each other then there is usually a value each is looking for making that trade desirable:

https://www.veloceinternational.com/finance/what-are-best-gold-backed-cryptocurrencies/

So you are incorrect saying Crypto is not backed by anything. People would not spend small fortunes, time, education, employees on mining if there was no value in it.
 
noko said:
So you are incorrect correct in saying most Crypto is not backed by anything. People would not spend small fortunes, time, education, employees on mining if there was no value in it.
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FTFY, I get it, reading is hard.
 
In fairness, it depends on which coin/token you are talking about. In theory, stablecoins are backed by an equivalent amount of dollars, and some coins are tied to gold, etc.
 
kirbyrj said:
In fairness, it depends on which coin/token you are talking about. In theory, stablecoins are backed by an equivalent amount of dollars, and some coins are tied to gold, etc.
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which is why I said some coins try to get around not being backed. Lets be honest for just a moment, most coins are not backed by anything and are entirely speculative, I have nothing against that but it is reality.
 
Aireoth said:
Stocks are still tied to assets, unlike crypto.
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:rolleyes:

All sorts of mined Crypto is tied to assets, RVN is one coin solely made to work with assets where cars, houses etc. are signed over using it. Mining plays a critical role for these assets to be traded. Assets such as art, ideas, models either software or actual objects are considered assets. Crypto pretty much embraces all asset types in ways that traditional money can never do without external managed methods, contracts, government deeds etc. The mining farm is an actual asset supporting transactions, block chain of a coin. Mining is a form of asset for a coin, be it your CPU, GPU or some mining farm -> it is supporting the Crypto being mined. So all Crypto mined has an inherit asset from the start.
 
Aireoth said:
which is why I said some coins try to get around not being backed. Lets be honest for just a moment, most coins are not backed by anything and are entirely speculative, I have nothing against that but it is reality.
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I mean I guess it is "backed" by the strength of the network and the potential for utility. I could make a literal $SHIT coin that does nothing. I'm sure there might be some speculation, but at the end of the day, it serves no purpose. I think BTC has utility even if it isn't "backed" by something physical. I might view USDT as better or worse than other stablecoins based on what they are "backed" by. There are also many purely speculative coins (e.g. SHIB) that are trying to reinvent themselves to bring more utility. I don't buy it.

I don't know that it's a pure dichotomy to say it's backed by something physical or it isn't. I think the devil is in the details.

I'm not trying to interject into your discussion/argument with noko per se. Personally, I think you're talking about two sides of the same coin (no pun intended).
 
kirbyrj said:
I mean I guess it is "backed" by the strength of the network and the potential for utility. I could make a literal $SHIT coin that does nothing. I'm sure there might be some speculation, but at the end of the day, it serves no purpose. I think BTC has utility even if it isn't "backed" by something physical. I might view USDT as better or worse than other stablecoins based on what they are "backed" by. There are also many purely speculative coins (e.g. SHIB) that are trying to reinvent themselves to bring more utility. I don't buy it.

I don't know that it's a pure dichotomy to say it's backed by something physical or it isn't. I think the devil is in the details.
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  • Miners (equipment, infrastructure, personel, electrical energy -> These are themselves assets) supporting a coin via mining is an asset that keeps the coin/transactions alive -> that is an asset
  • Exchanges supporting exchange of coins is an asset to the coins that are supported, asset for the people wanting liquidity and options. For the Coin the network in how traded is an asset
  • Retailers and businesses that accept Crypto (for example I bought many $ worth of Gold/Silver from Money Metal Exchange) - that supports and backs the given Crypto currencies which is also an asset for the Crypto supported
  • Investors investing in a coin stakes a level of confidence of it's value - those investors are an asset
  • Software programmable coins for Smart Contracts is an asset for businesses to use, asset for the coin like in ETH or ERG having that ability
Gold is an asset but failed as money in the long run. It is very hard to rapidly transport across long distance transactions and is unusable in today's economy. If we go back to horse and buggy days or prior without electronic communications, it could be used for money again. Money that uses predominantly the same methods for business to function -> Internet based -> Will most likely work well with money/assets that are also based off of it -> Mining, Crypto, Staking (which really is another way to verify the blockchain on the internet).
 
noko said:
:rolleyes:

All sorts of mined Crypto is tied to assets, RVN is one coin solely made to work with assets where cars, houses etc. are signed over using it. Mining plays a critical role for these assets to be traded. Assets such as art, ideas, models either software or actual objects are considered assets. Crypto pretty much embraces all asset types in ways that traditional money can never do without external managed methods, contracts, government deeds etc. The mining farm is an actual asset supporting transactions, block chain of a coin. Mining is a form of asset for a coin, be it your CPU, GPU or some mining farm -> it is supporting the Crypto being mined. So all Crypto mined has an inherit asset from the start.
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Most crypto is not backed by physical assets, products, and corporate earnings, most stocks do not exist in thin air, they are tied directly to a corporate entity. Just because a currency tries to tie itself to a real world asset (very VERY few) and a few others seek a niche in transaction type (facilitating house sales etc) doesn't tie them to things in the way a stock is tied to a company. They are very different things in practicality and reality, and I take umbrage with you and others gaslighting those with little to no financial literacy by claiming this is something that it isn't. Rolling your eyes changes nothing.

Just because you use something to mine does not mean an asset is tied to it, come on man, give your head a shake.
 
noko said:
  • Miners (equipment, infrastructure, personel, electrical energy -> These are themselves assets) supporting a coin via mining is an asset that keeps the coin/transactions alive -> that is an asset
  • Exchanges supporting exchange of coins is an asset to the coins that are supported, asset for the people wanting liquidity and options. For the Coin the network in how traded is an asset
  • Retailers and businesses that accept Crypto (for example I bought many $ worth of Gold/Silver from Money Metal Exchange) - that supports and backs the given Crypto currencies which is also an asset for the Crypto supported
  • Investors investing in a coin stakes a level of confidence of it's value - those investors are an asset
  • Software programmable coins for Smart Contracts is an asset for businesses to use, asset for the coin like in ETH or ERG having that ability
Gold is an asset but failed as money in the long run. It is very hard to rapidly transport across long distance transactions and is unusable in today's economy. If we go back to horse and buggy days or prior without electronic communications, it could be used for money again. Money that uses predominantly the same methods for business to function -> Internet based -> Will most likely work well with money/assets that are also based off of it -> Mining, Crypto, Staking (which really is another way to verify the blockchain on the internet).
Click to expand...

It's definitely a case by case basis. I put a whole lot more faith in BTC/ETH vs. SHIB for example.
 
noko said:
  • Miners (equipment, infrastructure, personel, electrical energy -> These are themselves assets) supporting a coin via mining is an asset that keeps the coin/transactions alive -> that is an asset
  • Exchanges supporting exchange of coins is an asset to the coins that are supported, asset for the people wanting liquidity and options. For the Coin the network in how traded is an asset
  • Retailers and businesses that accept Crypto (for example I bought many $ worth of Gold/Silver from Money Metal Exchange) - that supports and backs the given Crypto currencies which is also an asset for the Crypto supported
  • Investors investing in a coin stakes a level of confidence of it's value - those investors are an asset
  • Software programmable coins for Smart Contracts is an asset for businesses to use, asset for the coin like in ETH or ERG having that ability
Gold is an asset but failed as money in the long run. It is very hard to rapidly transport across long distance transactions and is unusable in today's economy. If we go back to horse and buggy days or prior without electronic communications, it could be used for money again. Money that uses the predominantly the same way used for business to function in todays world -> Internet based -> Will most likely work well with money/assets that are also based off of it -> Mining, Crypto, Staking (which really is another way to verify the blockchain on the internet).
Click to expand...

  • Miners (equipment, infrastructure, personel, electrical energy -> These are themselves assets) supporting a coin via mining is an asset that keeps the coin/transactions alive -> that is an asset . No that is not an asset for a crypto coin, the coin owns none of the infrastructure, if it goes insolvent the asset isn't liquidated to pay debtors, it DOESN'T reside in the coins hand.

  • Exchanges supporting exchange of coins is an asset to the coins that are supported, asset for the people wanting liquidity and options. For the Coin the network in how traded is an asset. Again, no this is not a asset, its a transaction platform. The New York stock exchange is not an asset for stocks.

  • Retailers and businesses that accept Crypto (for example I bought many $ worth of Gold/Silver from Money Metal Exchange) - that supports and backs the given Crypto currencies which is also an asset for the Crypto supported. Not an asset of crypto but a product of its speculative value. Does it give it legitimacy, sure, but again if the crypto goes to zero tomorrow the retailers won't be backing anything.

  • Investors investing in a coin stakes a level of confidence of it's value - those investors are an asset. Speculation, not asset. Again speculation drives crypto's value and very likely will for the next several years.

  • Software programmable coins for Smart Contracts is an asset for businesses to use, asset for the coin like in ETH or ERG having that ability Small number of coins actually execute this function, the contract would be the asset as the contract carries legal weight and is enforceable if the smart portion fails.
 
kirbyrj said:
It's definitely a case by case basis. I put a whole lot more faith in BTC/ETH vs. SHIB for example.
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Definitely, agree there. There is another aspect of mined coins, their tenacity is virtually indestructible so far. Once formed and started they are pretty much intact except the real scam coins. It is like biological DNA which maintains a record for millions and millions of years for different species through time. Except Crypto is rather new.
 
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Aireoth said:
  • Miners (equipment, infrastructure, personel, electrical energy -> These are themselves assets) supporting a coin via mining is an asset that keeps the coin/transactions alive -> that is an asset . No that is not an asset for a crypto coin, the coin owns none of the infrastructure, if it goes insolvent the asset isn't liquidated to pay debtors, it DOESN'T reside in the coins hand.

  • Exchanges supporting exchange of coins is an asset to the coins that are supported, asset for the people wanting liquidity and options. For the Coin the network in how traded is an asset. Again, no this is not a asset, its a transaction platform. The New York stock exchange is not an asset for stocks.

  • Retailers and businesses that accept Crypto (for example I bought many $ worth of Gold/Silver from Money Metal Exchange) - that supports and backs the given Crypto currencies which is also an asset for the Crypto supported. Not an asset of crypto but a product of its speculative value. Does it give it legitimacy, sure, but again if the crypto goes to zero tomorrow the retailers won't be backing anything.

  • Investors investing in a coin stakes a level of confidence of it's value - those investors are an asset. Speculation, not asset. Again speculation drives crypto's value and very likely will for the next several years.

  • Software programmable coins for Smart Contracts is an asset for businesses to use, asset for the coin like in ETH or ERG having that ability Small number of coins actually execute this function, the contract would be the asset as the contract carries legal weight and is enforceable if the smart portion fails.
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What is your definition of asset?

You do know the US government considers Crypto as an Asset -> that in itself blows your arguments to shreds.
Anything of value is considered an asset, tangible or not -> who says you have to liquidate something for it to be an asset or backed by an asset -> your just making up requirements out of thin air
Having business, people supporting something is normally considered an asset to anyone who ever done any sort of business. For example, the members of this forum is an asset, not owned by HardOCP but the participation and members are an asset to it.

As for Gold -> That is one speculative asset in itself. Just because people speculate, invest, used their best judgement on different projects/businesses/people does not make something not an asset.
 
noko said:
What is your definition of asset?

You do know the US government considers Crypto as an Asset -> that in itself blows your arguments to shreds.
Anything of value is considered an asset, tangible or not -> who says you have to liquidate something for it to be an asset or backed by an asset -> your just making up requirements out of thin air
Having business, people supporting something is normally considered an asset to anyone who ever done any sort of business. For example, the members of this forum is an asset, not owned by HardOCP but the participation and members are an asset to it.

As for Gold -> That is one speculative asset in itself. Just because people speculate, invest, used their best judgement on different projects/businesses/people does not make something not an asset.
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Most Crypto stands on nothing but speculation of value, which is why its most commonly compared to currency rather than a stock. Even currency has the backing of a state however.

Crypto enthusiasts always raise every single con alarm bell.
 
Aireoth said:
Most Crypto stands on nothing but speculation of value, which is why its most commonly compared to currency rather than a stock. Even currency has the backing of a state however.

Crypto enthusiasts always raise every single con alarm bell.
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Maynbe you dont understand the topic of this thread. Its about moving physical assets (bitcoin miners) from china. These assets have value. They work to secure and upgrade the blockchain which has value. Companies buy them and employee people (value) these companoes make money and are listed (value). I could go on but you seem to like to thread crap everything crypto so im probably wasting my time. If you dont like crypto so much, why do you keep posting about it? Its like "old man yells at clouds"
 
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I can't wait to by SEC coin. It will innovate by having the fed kill off tracking of it's Blockchain like they did with M2 and M3.
 
Aireoth said:
Most Crypto stands on nothing but speculation of value, which is why its most commonly compared to currency rather than a stock. Even currency has the backing of a state however.

Crypto enthusiasts always raise every single con alarm bell.
Click to expand...

At what point do people start saying value is not longer purely speculative? Bitcoin has been around for over a decade now, and you can fit a very basic log trend to its price. And while it has been a volatile asset, its volatility is decreasing with time. Just look the past year: it has been trading between $30K-$68K. Nobody would think much of a stock trading between $3-$6.8 over that same period of time. At this point one can confidently say that 1 Bitcoin is "worth" somewhere between $10K-$80K (whether you yourself have a use case for the network or not). And yes that's a large price range, but it is not weighted equally. Meaning a true valuation of $10K is less likely to be true than of say of, $30K.

Edit: And Bitcoin's backing is the utility of the network itself. People using the network need Bitcoin to pay for transactions. The more people that use it, the higher the demand for Bitcoin. People mistake this thing called adoption for a ponzi scheme. That doesn't mean there isn't manipulation, hoarding or a rampant amount of speculation in these markets - but I'm just brining up the point that it has "backing". It's just different from how traditional fiat currencies are backed.
 
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