Bitcoin crumbles below $40,000 on China crypto warning

So I'm gonna go make some software that does something no one values and I should get rich, right guys?
 
Aireoth said:
No, software has value because software can do something, not because people place value on it. CAD can create CAD diagrams, Adobe allows for all sorts of creative content and marketing work, games provide an experience. Also all of those things value slowly reaches zero over time as new software replaces it.

Crypto has value solely because people decide it does, if/when people decide it doesn't it dies.
Click to expand...
You misunderstand.

Plenty of software does "nothing" and has some kind of value.
On the other hand plenty of software can do great things and cost nothing or not have the value they should.
 
Also I have created programs that are useful and outperform paid programs, but since I am "unknown" it has no "value" to other people because they don't want it enough to pay money for it.
 
Rockenrooster said:
You misunderstand.

Plenty of software does "nothing" and has some kind of value.
On the other hand plenty of software can do great things and cost nothing or not have the value they should.
Click to expand...
I misunderstood nothing, marketing problems of individual software aside, generally software does something for value. I have not seen software that does nothing in the market since some of the mail order stuff in the 90s.
 
Aireoth said:
No, software has value because software can do something, not because people place value on it. CAD can create CAD diagrams, Adobe allows for all sorts of creative content and marketing work, games provide an experience. Also all of those things value slowly reaches zero over time as new software replaces it.

Crypto has value solely because people decide it does, if/when people decide it doesn't it dies.
Click to expand...
crypto does not do "nothing"

maybe do some research on the subject. You can start here with reading what Ethereum is capable of doing.
https://ethereum.org/en/dapps/
 
insectomorph said:
https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actually-consume
Click to expand...
That's the most nonsense I've read recently. It starts off asking the question how much utility crypto actually has, and the only argument relevant to the first world made for crypto that it is free of inflation. Yes, of course it is free because it has no real value, inflation is caused by the economic growth being smaller than the growth of money supply, but bitcoin is not connected to any real economy so of course it is unaffected by it. And this argument is a non-sequitur to begin with bitcoin value can wildly fluctuate from day to day, how is that better than a steady predictable rate of inflation?

And then the article pivots to talking about how much energy mining consumes, trying to represent it as actually being small, despite consuming more energy than first world countries with tens of millions of citizens. Then it pivots again to talking guesswork about how much of the energy consumed by miners is renewable, pulls a 73% out of the writers ass, and calls it a day. What was the point of this article really? Maybe they didn't expect people to actually read it to the end and realize what nonsense it really is. Even if the 73% were true it doesn't mean anything because of the footprint of mining does not start / end at the energy consumed by the actual hashrate. All the equipment had to be manufactured too, all the farms kept cool, all the infrastructure kept working etc. Anyone thinking the only impact on the ecology / economy of crypto is the actual mining are engaging in wilful ignorance.
 
elite.mafia said:
crypto does not do "nothing"

maybe do some research on the subject. You can start here with reading what Ethereum is capable of doing.
https://ethereum.org/en/dapps/#what-are-dapps
Click to expand...
Crypto is a hustle, nothing has changed my mind to date. In fact, all direct evidence just continues to reinforce that. Those dapps are just an extension of hustling the 'tradability/currency' of crypto. Again that cycles back to will this replace FIAT as currency, and what we are seeing from China today is yet another indication that nations will not accept it.

Blockchain ledgers have some use.

I would not buy the insurance from those crypto-exchanges and expect them to payout in a catastrophe.
 
Aireoth said:
No, software has value because software can do something, not because people place value on it.
Click to expand...

Here you pointed out that Software only has value because it can do something and NOT because people place value on it, when actually its a combination of both.
Software has value because it does something customers want/need and therefore place value on it. Ideally The creators of the software will place a price on it around what the general customer's "perceived value" of it, or similar to a competitors...
How well the software does in the market changes the value of the software, if it takes the world by storm, then clearly people value it a lot more. If it fails, then CLEARLY no one values it much at all...

I'm not trying to change your mind about anything. You clearly have your mind made up.
Whatever you think doesn't change how the world works though.
 
Aireoth said:
Crypto is a hustle, nothing has changed my mind to date. In fact, all direct evidence just continues to reinforce that. Those dapps are just an extension of hustling the 'tradability/currency' of crypto. Again that cycles back to will this replace FIAT as currency, and what we are seeing from China today is yet another indication that nations will not accept it.

Blockchain ledgers have some use.

I would not buy the insurance from those crypto-exchanges and expect them to payout in a catastrophe.
Click to expand...
I don't think any actual crypto supporters would ever argue that it's going to replace FIAT as a currency.
 
elite.mafia said:
I don't think any actual crypto supporters would ever argue that it's going to replace FIAT as a currency.
Click to expand...
I don't think so either, I look at it as more of a "stock". I don't care much what it "does". Just that it goes up. Kind of like some other stocks like GME lol
 
Rockenrooster said:
Here you pointed out that Software only has value because it can do something and NOT because people place value on it, when actually its a combination of both.
Software has value because it does something customers want/need and therefore place value on it. Ideally The creators of the software will place a price on it around what the general customer's "perceived value" of it, or similar to a competitors...
How well the software does in the market changes the value of the software, if it takes the world by storm, then clearly people value it a lot more. If it fails, then CLEARLY no one values it much at all...

I'm not trying to change your mind about anything. You clearly have your mind made up.
Whatever you think doesn't change how the world works though.
Click to expand...

That snipe at the end deflates your argument.

My argument isn't that people don't place value on things, its that somethings (software in this instance) have intrinsic use and thus value, they can do something, draft a building, produce a finished product, and provide entertainment, that value will always be there even if people move on.

Crypto does not have that, in its very nature it only has value as long as people place value on it, you cannot do anything with Crypto if it went to $0 tomorrow. I can still use my 20 year old CAD suite or my 15 year old Adobe suite, I can still watch that movie from 30 years ago, even if they aren't modern or feature complete, even if no one would buy them if I sold them, they still have a value.

*Unlike a stock, crypto doesn't even have a backing entity. While yes the stock market is largely or partially a sham, it still hangs on the companies your trading stocks on having actual value, profit, earnings, and equity.
 
LukeTbk said:
HIgher demand do seem to be driving it (the rise is not that big but desktop sales was expected to continue to drop by what a good 10-11% so even a modest jump in sales can be a big change versus expectation), but also supply not being able to rise at level that they normally would have (because with that demand I imagine that in normal time we would have got 2017 early 2018 supply from both company):

View attachment 358092


NVidia outsold 2019 Q2-Q3-Q4 some by almost 50%, so if the demand would have stayed at 2019 level we would have not encountered issues I would guess.
Click to expand...

Good points it seems like there are a bunch of factors. It all adds up.

With desktops they where hit pretty hard with restrictions as well. To us around here of course it seems insane... but people still buy a lot of desktops from companies like HP. They where hit with import restrictions on a lot of their stuff as well. Its surprising how much everyone was dealing with Hefei Bitland specifically. Yes it was mostly laptops... and I'm sure Lenovo loves all the press they got about the chromebooks they sold to schools most likely manufactured by Uyghur slaves. HP and other companies where also importing parts for desktops they where assembling in the US. So ya for sure some increased demand and the usual... just order another 100 containers from China hasn't been possible.

Seems like it was a perfect storm. Covid Demand... Crypto Demand... Fab space being sucked up cause who ever wrote the first round of sanctions was a moron... then on the tail end a ton of electronics companies being forced to shelve their current stock and not being able to reorder from a handful of big Chinese suppliers. That last round of import bans also hurt a ton of other tech related industries like Televisions ect.... those Chinese companies supplied a lot of little bits here and there, and they have also been doing like huawei and stockpiling components. As well as a bunch of vulture supply companies popping up to move components around and play shell games to still supply China.

Such a shit show... you know if I thought all the Chinese sanctions would actually end their mis treatment of the Uyghurs I would feel a lot better about things. I think everyone knows nothing is going to change. Damn Capitalism. :)
 
Aireoth said:
That snipe at the end deflates your argument.

My argument isn't that people don't place value on things, its that somethings (software in this instance) have intrinsic use and thus value, they can do something, draft a building, produce a finished product, and provide entertainment, that value will always be there even if people move on.

Crypto does not have that, in its very nature it only has value as long as people place value on it, you cannot do anything with Crypto if it went to $0 tomorrow. I can still use my 20 year old CAD suite or my 15 year old Adobe suite, I can still watch that movie from 30 years ago, even if they aren't modern or feature complete, even if no one would buy them if I sold them, they still have a value.
Click to expand...
they dont get it, they only see free dollar signs.

ChadD said:
Such a shit show... ..... :)
Click to expand...
try not to get it soapboxed....
 
M76 said:
That's the most nonsense I've read recently. It starts off asking the question how much utility crypto actually has, and the only argument relevant to the first world made for crypto that it is free of inflation. Yes, of course it is free because it has no real value, inflation is caused by the economic growth being smaller than the growth of money supply, but bitcoin is not connected to any real economy so of course it is unaffected by it. And this argument is a non-sequitur to begin with bitcoin value can wildly fluctuate from day to day, how is that better than a steady predictable rate of inflation?

And then the article pivots to talking about how much energy mining consumes, trying to represent it as actually being small, despite consuming more energy than first world countries with tens of millions of citizens. Then it pivots again to talking guesswork about how much of the energy consumed by miners is renewable, pulls a 73% out of the writers ass, and calls it a day. What was the point of this article really? Maybe they didn't expect people to actually read it to the end and realize what nonsense it really is. Even if the 73% were true it doesn't mean anything because of the footprint of mining does not start / end at the energy consumed by the actual hashrate. All the equipment had to be manufactured too, all the farms kept cool, all the infrastructure kept working etc. Anyone thinking the only impact on the ecology / economy of crypto is the actual mining are engaging in wilful ignorance.
Click to expand...
If we only care about the first world, I'm not sure what the point of debating inflation or energy usage is.
 
insectomorph said:
If we only care about the first world, I'm not sure what the point of debating inflation or energy usage is.
Click to expand...
where did he say that?! it USES more energy that small first world nations, ie ones with massive infrastructures...
 
pendragon1 said:
where did he say that?! it USES more energy that small first world nations, ie ones with massive infrastructures...
Click to expand...
Speaking to the utility of bitcoin. Its most powerful use case tends come from countries outside North America. Nigeria, for example.

If we're going to say they don't count, its an intentionally disingenuous debate.
 
insectomorph said:
Speaking to the utility of bitcoin. Its most powerful use case tends come from countries outside North America. Nigeria, for example.

If we're going to say they don't count, its an intentionally disingenuous debate.
Click to expand...
he gave a example of how much power it uses, hes not comparing counties. something something reading comprehension...
 
pendragon1 said:
good call, as your not going to change minds with a crap argument.
Click to expand...
Dang. You guys are brutal. Now I have to say something.

You must have missed my post where I stated I wasn't trying.
Also, even a good argument can turn to a crap one when the goalposts shift, or in this case "clarified". (not necessarily a bad thing)

Crypto has value as the market proves and it can do "something" (transfer money). Whether that "something" is a good value is something else. And I agree with the statement that you can't do anything with crypto if it went $0 (dead and no longer exists).
 
pendragon1 said:
he gave a example of how much power it uses, hes not comparing counties. something something reading comprehension...
Click to expand...
" the only argument relevant to the first world made for crypto that it is free of inflation."
 
The energy usage of crypto is a very, very small percentage of global energy usage. Bitcoin is around 0.6% of global energy usage. It's not a big deal.

Crypto indeed has value for the same reason every single medium of exchange since we've moved off the barter system has had value. Fiat, gold, etc. Because people have decided it does. At least with crypto there's no worry of someone going and printing off a few trillion when the country running it hits a depression.
 
The funny thing about this is the fact that the anti-crypto people are out in force when in reality the miners are making more BTC than before due to the lower value and lower hash volume. It's actually GOOD for miners.
 
kirbyrj said:
The funny thing about this is the fact that the anti-crypto people are out in force when in reality the miners are making more BTC than before due to the lower value and lower hash volume. It's actually GOOD for miners.
Click to expand...
Nope, other than a brief stint this morning when I hit $100/day its back down to normal levels once correcting for BTC prices.
 
kirbyrj said:
The funny thing about this is the fact that the anti-crypto people are out in force when in reality the miners are making more BTC than before due to the lower value and lower hash volume. It's actually GOOD for miners.
Click to expand...
Yep, you mine coins (slightly) faster and when they go back up in value, well you'll have some decent gains. BUT you have to be in for the long haul and be patient...
 
Aireoth said:
Nope, other than a brief stint this morning when I hit $100/day its back down to normal levels once correcting for BTC prices.
Click to expand...

I made 150% today of what I made yesterday in BTC on NH 🤷‍♂️. It's not about the strict dollar amount. It is the mBTC/day.
 
kirbyrj said:
I made 150% today of what I made yesterday in BTC on NH 🤷‍♂️. It's not about the strict dollar amount. It is the mBTC/day.
Click to expand...
I understand that (which is why I converted the BTC dollar amount to compensate for the 36% drop at time of calculation), but if you look at your history I'll bet you there was a bump but its back down now.

It only really matters if the bump is sustained, sure I hit a record yesterday but that's already gone and I'm back to a normal mBTC/day rate.
 
obs said:
The energy usage of crypto is a very, very small percentage of global energy usage. Bitcoin is around 0.6% of global energy usage. It's not a big deal.

Crypto indeed has value for the same reason every single medium of exchange since we've moved off the barter system has had value. Fiat, gold, etc. Because people have decided it does. At least with crypto there's no worry of someone going and printing off a few trillion when the country running it hits a depression.
Click to expand...
Energy or electricity ?, if something use by virtually no one really use is using 0.6% of the global energy that sound like a lot, that would be what more than half all the solar energy (non passive) made on the planet going to Bitcoin.

World international shipping is less than 4% of the global energy for a comparison, enough to justify the changing of model before it become popular in day to day use they seem to be doing, that said the current level can be exagerated world crypto energy usage was similar to the electric vampirisation of idle device in the USA I think, but it show that the current model a la BTC would not have work for days to days.
 
Aireoth said:
I understand that, but if you look at your history I'll bet you there was a bump but its back down now.

It only really matters if the bump is sustained, sure I hit a record yesterday but that's already gone and I'm back to a normal mBTC/day rate.
Click to expand...

I've found that two things affect the mBTC/day rate over some 3 years of using NH. When gas fees for ETH go up, and when the price of BTC goes down. Both will result in higher mBTC/day rates.

For me personally, today I had a pay rate about where it was last week when ETH was nearing $4k. By the end of today, I will have close to double what I made yesterday in mBTC.

It's hard for me to get more specific and check the bumps because their rig manager is down right now.
 
kirbyrj said:
I've found that two things affect the mBTC/day rate over some 3 years of using NH. When gas fees for ETH go up, and when the price of BTC goes down. Both will result in higher mBTC/day rates.

For me personally, today I had a pay rate about where it was last week when ETH was nearing $4k. By the end of today, I will have close to double what I made yesterday in mBTC.

It's hard for me to get more specific and check the bumps because their rig manager is down right now.
Click to expand...
I see that, but my historical is ~.00010, lows hit .0008, and today its ~.00012, hit a high of .0002, all with one rig so I think its pretty good.

All I am seeing is a small temporary bump as I bet some chinese miners took their rigs down after China's announcement and now other people have spun rigs up and its on the way to closing the gap sometime tomorrow.
 
Even after the "bump" the rate I have been averaging in the last 4-6 hours is converted to about 25% higher than my average in $ value and double my usual BTC value. Not that I care I have been doing this long enough to not get excited over the ups and downs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top