Bitcoin Closing in on $10,000 as Cryptocurrency Market Reaches $300 Billion

[M76]

It's so funny how much people on this forum hate Bitcoin


Hate to be the bearer of bad news but Bitcoin isn't going anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if it got up to 50K by the end of next year

So you can start by listing the reasons why cryptocurrency is a good thing.

And no, making money with cryptomining is not a good thing. Also if you're going to start with usual fight the government and no taxes bullshit you can spare me that as well. Those are only perceived to be good things by people who have nothing else in sight but their own short term gains.

Are there any other reasons why it should not be hated? Oh yes untraceable transactions. That sure comes in handy to criminals.

 

[tetris42]

So you can start by listing the reasons why cryptocurrency is a good thing.

It has the potential to be more stable than our current economic system. The current national debt is 20 trillion dollars and congress is working as hard as they can to add another trillion or so more to it in order to give tax cuts to wealthy people and corporations. This is not sustainable. We've already had a crash from 2008 from repealing post-Great Depression legislation to prevent a second Great Depression from happening. The bailout helped the people responsible for creating the crash, with nobody going to jail and over 12 trillion of quantitative easing to soften the blow, which fell on the backs of tax payers. Banks are even bigger now and are still gambling with our money. We haven't done much to stop a second great depression or recession from occurring, except even bigger next time. It's not a matter of if, but when. Also, keep in mind the USD is the standard for OPEC and is arguably the primary reason we have so much unnecessary military involvement in oil producing countries; to keep that fabulous dollar propped up. It's created a perverse incentive for perpetual military activity; if oil producing countries decided to go with another currency, I guarantee the value of the USD would drop substantially.

We've proven as a society, that we're fabulously irresponsible with our economic management. Cryptocurrency, at least in theory, has the potential to be immune from governments and wealthy special interests from manipulating the currency as a get out of jail free card for turning our economy into a giant casino at the expense of average people. Leaving the limitations of how the rules of a currency apply to algorithms as opposed to reverse Robin Hood economic policy at least has SOME potential to make things better. I'm not saying Bitcoin is the savior, but to act like there's no potential for good from cryptocurrency ignores how incredibly badly our CURRENT currency is being used. In other words, being neutral can be better than being terrible.

 

[Mchart]

It has the potential to be more stable than our current economic system. The current national debt is 20 trillion dollars and congress is working as hard as they can to add another trillion or so more to it in order to give tax cuts to wealthy people and corporations. This is not sustainable. We've already had a crash from 2008 from repealing post-Great Depression legislation to prevent a second Great Depression from happening. The bailout helped the people responsible for creating the crash, with nobody going to jail and over 12 trillion of quantitative easing to soften the blow, which fell on the backs of tax payers. Banks are even bigger now and are still gambling with our money. We haven't done much to stop a second great depression or recession from occurring, except even bigger next time. It's not a matter of if, but when. Also, keep in mind the USD is the standard for OPEC and is arguably the primary reason we have so much unnecessary military involvement in oil producing countries; to keep that fabulous dollar propped up. It's created a perverse incentive for perpetual military activity; if oil producing countries decided to go with another currency, I guarantee the value of the USD would drop substantially.

We've proven as a society, that we're fabulously irresponsible with our economic management. Cryptocurrency, at least in theory, has the potential to be immune from governments and wealthy special interests from manipulating the currency as a get out of jail free card for turning our economy into a giant casino at the expense of average people. Leaving the limitations of how the rules of a currency apply to algorithms as opposed to reverse Robin Hood economic policy at least has SOME potential to make things better. I'm not saying Bitcoin is the savior, but to act like there's no potential for good from cryptocurrency ignores how incredibly badly our CURRENT currency is being used. In other words, being neutral can be better than being terrible.

I've already covered this in the other 9k thread.

This is nutjob theory as it assumes two things happening -

A.) The US government largely collapsing. This leads to -

B.) Likely an event that will surpass WW2 in death toll and the very fact that the internet exists due to general stability worldwide means that the internet will cease to exist for most people in most countries. You will have no way besides carrying around physical media to trade bitcoin, and the currency is largely irrelevant without the internet and other things we currently enjoy. If you don't think the internet is a requirement for cryptocurrency to survive, or you think the internet can exist in an unstable environment.. You are wrong.

This is a pipe dream.

The other issue you guys have is that at the end of the day historically a deflationary currency never lasts. What *always* ends up happening is that one world power ultimately buys up all control of the currency. Frankly, which how fast the price is rising on Bitcoin, I think you are seeing that happen now. It isn't the average person that is causing the price of Bitcoin to skyrocket - It's either massive banks and/or governments.

 

[tetris42]

I've already covered this in the other 9k thread.

This is nutjob theory as it assumes two things happening -

A.) The US government largely collapsing. This leads to -

B.) Likely an event that will surpass WW2 in death toll and the very fact that the internet exists due to general stability worldwide means that the internet will cease to exist for most people in most countries. You will have no way besides carrying around physical media to trade bitcoin, and the currency is largely irrelevant without the internet and other things we currently enjoy. If you don't think the internet is a requirement for cryptocurrency to survive, or you think the internet can exist in an unstable environment.. You are wrong.

This is a pipe dream.

You're applying your own assumptions about what I'm saying, then calling me a nutjob. Let's clarify:

1. Everyone has their own definition of what collapsing means. I think the US government is becoming incredibly dysfunctional and can't maintain its own infrastructure or meet the needs of its people, or maintain its current influence in the long term. I think we're heading towards becoming the largest Banana Republic on Earth. So it could "collapse" the way many South American countries have "collapsed"; a society of total haves and have-nots, but still people survive and there still remains unevenly dispersed degrees of 1st and 3rd world infrastructure. You're acting like I'm saying it will be The Walking Dead, it won't.

Most of what you're saying seems based off that assumption, which isn't what I'm describing. I'm saying it will get notably worse, year after year. So imagine if we never had any recovery from the 2008 crash and instead every year, things were a little bit worse for everyone. That's a depressed and dysfunctional nation, not Mad Max.

2. Even if the USA becomes less relevant and in decline, that doesn't mean other nations can't prosper at the same time. Again, I'm not predicting the end of the world. Other countries could get their shit together while the USA festers and the internet continues that way. The decline of the USA does mean the end of the entire world. Your post seems to not allow for that concept. I said we have another great depression or recession coming. The stock market and electricity continued to exist after the Great Depression. I imagine even in the event of another economic shockwave, the internet will exist also.


3. Am I WRONG about what I said regarding our economy? Why the hell do you think cryptocurrency is rising so much in price? I've said it before: If our economy was completely stable and serving everyone, Bitcoin would be worth as much as monopoly money. In the same way that the value of precious metals increase during economic uncertainty, cryptocurrency can be seen as a potential (not all of them will be, obviously) safe haven against horrendous economic policy.


By all means, explain to a nutjob like me how our economy is going to get better and remain stable in the long term. I honestly don't see it.

 

[Mchart]

You're applying your own assumptions about what I'm saying, then calling me a nutjob. Let's clarify:

1. Everyone has their own definition of what collapsing means. I think the US government is becoming incredibly dysfunctional and can't maintain its own infrastructure or meet the needs of its people, or maintain its current influence in the long term. I think we're heading towards becoming the largest Banana Republic on Earth. So it could "collapse" the way many South American countries have "collapsed"; a society of total haves and have-nots, but still people survive and there still remains unevenly dispersed degrees of 1st and 3rd world infrastructure. You're acting like I'm saying it will be The Walking Dead, it won't.

Most of what you're saying seems based off that assumption, which isn't what I'm describing. I'm saying it will get notably worse, year after year. So imagine if we never had any recovery from the 2008 crash and instead every year, things were a little bit worse for everyone. That's a depressed and dysfunctional nation, not Mad Max.

The USA is DECLINING. Will the government collapse? Maybe, but that could very well never happen in our lifetimes. It could maintain a state of decline for many decades easily.


2. Even if the USA becomes less relevant and in decline, that doesn't mean other nations can't prosper at the same time. Again, I'm not predicting the end of the world. Other countries could get their shit together while the USA festers and the internet continues that way. The decline of the USA does mean the end of the entire world. Your post seems to not allow for that concept.


3. Am I WRONG about what I said regarding our economy? Why the hell do you think cryptocurrency is rising so much in price? I've said it before: If our economy was completely stable and serving everyone, Bitcoin would be worth as much as monopoly money. In the same way that the value of precious metals increase during economic uncertainty, cryptocurrency can be seen as a potential (not all of them will be, obviously) safe haven against horrendous economic policy.


By all means, explain to a nutjob like me how our economy is going to get better and remain stable in the long term. I honestly don't see it.

My point is that unless you own a piece of large property that you can farm/have animals on, and are buying guns, ammo, useful tools, etc. everything is monopoly money - Bitcoin even more so.

I disagree on your point that the US will become a 'banana republic'. This a giant misunderstanding of what a Banana Republic was/is, and the global security the US provides which is allowing things like the internet and bitcoin to exist.

If you're buying Bitcoin because you think the USD and US government are going to fail within your lifetime you are not putting your money in the right place. You'd be better off moving your equity to Chinese based companies or doing the only real solution if you don't want to be murdered by a bunch of socialists during the collapse - And that's setting up a farm with a self-sustaining solar energy/battery grid, a decade survivable well for water, etc. Although ultimately any collapse of the current western ideals/system will lead to a totalitarian socialist regime murdering anyone who isn't a useful idiot in the short/mid-term during the transition period.

IMO your ideas of Bitcoin are just as unrealistic as anyone pushing some sort of other utopian idea.

I congratulate anyone making money off of it right now, but if you've made a fortune you should be selling while you still can exchange the currency.

 

[tetris42]

My point is that unless you own a piece of large property that you can farm/have animals on, and are buying guns, ammo, useful tools, etc. everything is monopoly money - Bitcoin even more so.

That's not the argument I was making exactly.

Real goods, land, etc. = always useful
published currency = useful as long as society and government backing it is functioning, can strengthen or weaken accordingly
stocks = can be incredibly valuable and useful, or be worthless, depends on a lot of factors
Monopoly money = no real value

I'm saying Bitcoin is on the level of stocks. Of course it would have no value if we had a Mad Max scenario

I disagree on your point that the US will become a 'banana republic'. This a giant misunderstanding of what a Banana Republic was/is, and the global security the US provides which is allowing things like the internet and bitcoin to exist.

I was simplifying a bit. Here, I'll take it from wikipedia:

"Typically, a banana republic has a society of stratified social classes, usually a great, poor working class and a ruling-class plutocracy, composed of the business, political and military elites of that society.[1] Such a ruling-class oligarchy controls the primary sector of the economy by way of the exploitation of labour"

So yes, we won't fit every last definition of a banana republic, like having a single export product, but the above certainly seems like the direction we're heading.

If you're buying Bitcoin because you think the USD and US government are going to fail within your lifetime you are not putting your money in the right place. You'd be better off moving your equity to Chinese based companies or doing the only real solution if you don't want to be murdered by a bunch of socialists during the collapse - And that's setting up a farm with a self-sustaining solar energy/battery grid, a decade survivable well for water, etc. Although ultimately any collapse of the current western ideals/system will lead to a totalitarian socialist regime murdering anyone who isn't a useful idiot in the short/mid-term during the transition period.

It's like you didn't read my reply, but I'll try once more:

I'm not saying the US government will collapse. That could very well never happen in our lifetimes. I'm saying our economic system is unsustainable and we're overall heading towards a state of long term decline. You're talking about the collapse of the government and every man for himself Mad Max anarchy situation. I'm talking about a thoroughly corrupted government that doesn't respond to the needs of the people in a society of haves and have-nots couple with a Great Depression or recession that we don't really recover from. These are very different situations even if they both suck.

 

[bugleyman]

it may colapses but certainly not do to the overhead of transactions. that issue has been long fixed in almost all cryptos except bitcoin.



prices are almost all back down to msrp or close even on cards that are fantastic for mining, granted if the crypto "bubble" did collapse (it would take the failure of 4+ altcoins for this to even be a possibility) there would be stupid cheap used cards but that day is over 6 months away and could happen never.

1. Interesting. I see very few cards near MSRP, let alone below (which is typically the case).
2. When the bubble pops -- and it will -- it will impact all cryptocurrencies.

 

[cdabc123]

1. Interesting. I see very few cards near MSRP, let alone below (which is typically the case).
2. When the bubble pops -- and it will -- it will impact all cryptocurrencies.

when btc pops the rest might just go up, the main thing that will efect gpu prices is when ether makes the full move from a minable currency withen the year. that will leave over 1 million cards needing to find a new home.

 

[Mchart]

I really find it funny that so much energy and material resources is being wasted on hashing out nonsense.

Not using that compute for cancer research, just arbitrary digital currency that has no tangible gain in the real world.

This is why this is a bubble. It’s only going up because people are buying to make money - nothing more.

 

[hitched]

Well just hit 10k

 

[Archaea]

Money shot

 

[DPI]

I really find it funny that so much energy and material resources is being wasted on hashing out nonsense.

Not using that compute for cancer research, just arbitrary digital currency that has no tangible gain in the real world.

This is why this is a bubble. It’s only going up because people are buying to make money - nothing more.

Imagine being this bitter you missed the boat..

 

[thebufenator]

Imagine being this bitter you missed the boat..

I am just bitter I waited too long

 

[Mchart]

Imagine being this bitter you missed the boat..

Most of my play money went into some small cap oil stocks last year / this year that made me some pretty decent gains. $crk from about $4 to $13 for instance. I'm glad people are making money off of playing Bitcoin.

I'm just trying to warn folks that if they've made a small fortune they should pull out now before they regret it. Always take a decent gain before you regret it. It's better to regret selling a little early and taking a healthy profit then it is regretting being down/neutral.

Bitcoin isn't bonds, equity, currency, or even a commodity. It's about on par with Poke`mon cards, rare Pogs, or better yet TF2 hats. Take the money while people still consider it worth something.

The 'This time is different' phrase has made a lot of people broke.

My comment earlier was mostly at how astounded I am that all of this compute is being wasted on make believe. If that compute were used on folding@home, etc. There would be a lot more benefit for the world; It's incredible how some folks making money on Bitcoin are trying to justify as anything other then greed. If wanna be greedy i'm fine with that - Just don't try to act like it's anything else.

 

[Archaea]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i...ave-to-admit-that-youre-being-dumb-2017-11-28

 

[cdabc123]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i...ave-to-admit-that-youre-being-dumb-2017-11-28

http://bigthink.com/think-tank/why-...m-of-money-weve-ever-seen-with-wences-casares

*disclaimer i didnt read this one and i in no way am using it as a argument. all im saying is articals are COMPLETE bs if you are investing in anything based on some free artical that gains its revenue from page views you need to seriously reevaluate your choices. as for btc itself i puled out more in usd then i started with and still have quite abit lying around. its actually one of my best investments (next to buying gpus last august) as for the future no one writing thease articals knows anything that will happen no one overseeing it knows what will happen and very few investers have a clue what will happen. as far as investing for profit I take aggressive leveraged positions on it and in no way expect to always be correct. im betting im corect more then 50% of the time and so far that has worked well.

 

[atp1916]

 

[Rvanhoose]

 

[Reality]

lol, almost at 10,900.

 

[Reality]

So you can start by listing the reasons why cryptocurrency is a good thing.

And no, making money with cryptomining is not a good thing. Also if you're going to start with usual fight the government and no taxes bullshit you can spare me that as well. Those are only perceived to be good things by people who have nothing else in sight but their own short term gains.

Are there any other reasons why it should not be hated? Oh yes untraceable transactions. That sure comes in handy to criminals.

until all of the coins are mined and the value won't be so volatile, you're right that there's really nothing good about bitcoin, it's a digital commodity that can incur crazy fluctuations in value on any given day and it really does a number on the discrete GPU market for your average gamer

with that being said, the value it does have (being able to make large amounts of money pretty easily) is significant though

 

[Reality]

I really find it funny that so much energy and material resources is being wasted on hashing out nonsense.

Not using that compute for cancer research, just arbitrary digital currency that has no tangible gain in the real world.

This is why this is a bubble. It’s only going up because people are buying to make money - nothing more.

Crazy, where have I seen that happen before.

 

[tetris42]

Looks like it will be time to retire this thread soon for the 11k one....

 

[Nytegard]

Looks like it will be time to retire this thread soon for the 11k one....

And it's surpassed 11k. And in a month, it probably will probably surpass 15k. Such a quick rise (over 1000% return this past year) is scary imho. I can't see any good coming from it.

 

[NickJames]

And it's surpassed 11k. And in a month, it probably will probably surpass 15k. Such a quick rise (over 1000% return this past year) is scary imho. I can't see any good coming from it.

Hope everyone has their stop losses set in place when it inevitably happens. Although from what I understand most exchanges have a withdraw cap? Unless that only applies to withdrawing the USD and not so much the BTC to USD exchange.

 

[Nytegard]

Hope everyone has their stop losses set in place when it inevitably happens. Although from what I understand most exchanges have a withdraw cap? Unless that only applies to withdrawing the USD and not so much the BTC to USD exchange.

Coinbase has a wallet you can cash out to. It still follows the rest of the rules, with a monthly cash out amount, but it doesn't fluctuate in value, as you're no longer in cryptocurrency. (It's mainly just a way to purchase different types of currencies quickly).

 

[Mchart]

And it's surpassed 11k. And in a month, it probably will probably surpass 15k. Such a quick rise (over 1000% return this past year) is scary imho. I can't see any good coming from it.

The chart is a classic bubble right now.

Sure - It could very well still go to $20k within a short period of time, but the problem is that the crash is so fast that it's going to murder a lot of people.

Even if you have stop/loss in place it won't matter when this crash happens because most of these bitcoin exchange/trading sites have historically shutdown/suspended their own internal trading during a crash.

I've been burned enough times on the stock market to know that stop/loss can't save you in the case of penny stocks that have massive fluctuations.

 

[Mchart]

Crazy, where have I seen that happen before.

More energy then should be is spent on the stock market, but ultimately even with how inflated it is the equity in stocks represents something real on the other end most of the time. Sure, lots of speculative tech companies are made up - But the valuation of companies like Coke, CAT, etc is representing something very real unlike bitcoin.

 

[M76]

It has the potential to be more stable than our current economic system. The current national debt is 20 trillion dollars and congress is working as hard as they can to add another trillion or so more to it in order to give tax cuts to wealthy people and corporations. This is not sustainable. We've already had a crash from 2008 from repealing post-Great Depression legislation to prevent a second Great Depression from happening. The bailout helped the people responsible for creating the crash, with nobody going to jail and over 12 trillion of quantitative easing to soften the blow, which fell on the backs of tax payers. Banks are even bigger now and are still gambling with our money. We haven't done much to stop a second great depression or recession from occurring, except even bigger next time. It's not a matter of if, but when. Also, keep in mind the USD is the standard for OPEC and is arguably the primary reason we have so much unnecessary military involvement in oil producing countries; to keep that fabulous dollar propped up. It's created a perverse incentive for perpetual military activity; if oil producing countries decided to go with another currency, I guarantee the value of the USD would drop substantially.

We've proven as a society, that we're fabulously irresponsible with our economic management. Cryptocurrency, at least in theory, has the potential to be immune from governments and wealthy special interests from manipulating the currency as a get out of jail free card for turning our economy into a giant casino at the expense of average people. Leaving the limitations of how the rules of a currency apply to algorithms as opposed to reverse Robin Hood economic policy at least has SOME potential to make things better. I'm not saying Bitcoin is the savior, but to act like there's no potential for good from cryptocurrency ignores how incredibly badly our CURRENT currency is being used. In other words, being neutral can be better than being terrible.

I agree that those are problems, but I don't see how cryptocurrency can solve those issues with it's wild unpredictability. This won't close the door to market manipulation even if the currency itself can't be manipulated. How can a currency provide more stabillity that can change it's value that quickly and the value is not determined by any real-world anchor. Government issued cash is at least backed by the economic strength of the government. As long as you have a decent GDP your currency won't collapse.

until all of the coins are mined and the value won't be so volatile, you're right that there's really nothing good about bitcoin, it's a digital commodity that can incur crazy fluctuations in value on any given day and it really does a number on the discrete GPU market for your average gamer

with that being said, the value it does have (being able to make large amounts of money pretty easily) is significant though

It's not the gpu market it's the fact that it uses resources, creating artificial demand for those resources, while producing no actual value. There is no service provided, there is no product created. And when the craze ends what will happen to the artificially inflated gpu market?

Crazy, where have I seen that happen before.

Mentioning another bad thing doesn't make it a good thing.

 

[Reality]

$14k