[Bit-Tech] Nvidia accused of crippling board partners' designs

H

hammerforged

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
1,092
Bit-Tech spoke to an un-named inside Nvidia source

Posted over on OCN as well.

A source inside one of Nvidia's largest graphics manufacturing partners, who spoke to us on the condition that they remain anonymous, explains: 'The fact is Nvidia is stopping ALL partners from allowing any form of hardware/software overvolting, or providing hardware mods beyond its very limited restrictions. They threaten to cut allocation [of GK100 parts] if hardware mods aren’t removed or avoided entirely.'

While homebrew soldering-iron-and-prayer overvolting is still permitted, manufacturing partners aren't allowed to make it easy for buyers. 'We're not allowed to openly advertise the PCB markings [for overvoltage adjustment] on the GTX 680,' our source continues.
Click to expand...

Claims that manufacturers aren't being restricted in their designs beyond the confines of the Green Light programme are soundly denied by our source, however. We've been told that the secretive restrictions on board partners go yet further: 'They [Nvidia] also threaten allocation if you make a card faster than the [stock] GTX 690.'

These restrictions are not limited to just a couple of companies, either: they appear to stretch right across the board, and are responsible for product cancellations and - as with EVGA's removal of the EVBot header from the GTX 680 Classified - hardware modifications from multiple manufacturers. They're also leaving a bad taste in board partners' mouths: where in previous generations each company has been able to push its own cards to the limit in order to beat the competition, under Nvidia's alleged new rules all GTX 680 boards will be more or less identical in performance and features.

The hardware restrictions are a loss for the consumer, too: EVGA has already stated that it won't be reducing the price of the GeForce GTX 680 Classified, despite removing the EVBot header and corresponding facility for custom voltages outside Nvidia's recommended limits - meaning buyers now get less card for their cash than before the company capitulated to Nvidia's alleged demands.

We've approached other board partners, but thus far none have been willing to comment on the record regarding our source's claims of hardware restrictions - and with our source alleging that Nvidia may even cut chip allocations for companies that talk publicly about the matter, that's no surprise.
Click to expand...

Source

Please keep the comments under control and educated.
 
From one side I can understand Nvidia point - after all it's them who have to replace GPUs, that were killed by overvolting, when some "noob", also called "first time OCer" fries the GPU by putting the power slider to max :)

On the other hand, I do believe that people should have choice to burn their GPUs in order to achieve greater speed.

I think, best solution would be some cards sold without warranty, with "you overvolt on your own risk" note, that would be targeted at OC crowd, with all the security protection removed. You want to try 3 Volts? You can, but if you fry it, you won't get new for free.
 
Wow... just wow..

Why have multiple manufacturers then if all the cards will pretty much be exactly the same? Nvidia is definitely starting to dig themselves a nasty grave and it looks like this is the same crap that will happen for the next gen cards too. Instead of "overvolted" or "higher clock", the different manufacturers will have to advertise with "better warranty!" "Purple color!" "slightly more quiet than the other guy!".

This might push me away from Nvidia products altogether.
 
MorgothPl said:
From one side I can understand Nvidia point - after all it's them who have to replace GPUs, that were killed by overvolting, when some "noob", also called "first time OCer" fries the GPU by putting the power slider to max :)

On the other hand, I do believe that people should have choice to burn their GPUs in order to achieve greater speed.

I think, best solution would be some cards sold without warranty, with "you overvolt on your own risk" note, that would be targeted at OC crowd, with all the security protection removed. You want to try 3 Volts? You can, but if you fry it, you won't get new for free.
Click to expand...

I'd be fine with this approach.
 
Well good thing my 680 can over volt by software to 1.35v or so, and pass 1400mhz. So up yours Nvidia. :D
 
Dan_D said:
I'd be fine with this approach.
Click to expand...

I agree. Lets talk to the Galaxy rep and get em on that :)

It would help all aspects of the industry. Keep Nvidia happy, overclockers, the non-overclockers, and reduce RMA cost.
 
I feel like they're going about this backwards. The draconian disable features method leaves a bad taste in everybody's mouth.

What I think would be a better idea, would be to allow for a sort of 'overclocking insurance' warranty that people can purchase, like with the intel k-series chips. That way, if cards die from overclocking, they won't get replaced for free under warranty unless that extra warranty was purchased. Assuming we have more smart users than dumb ones, this should turn into pure profits before the warranty expires - though its a pretty big assumption.
Or, they could allow partners to make seperate SKU's - locked and unlocked cards for the stock user and overclocker, where they could a) keep the price the same and change the warranty, or b) make the overclockers more expensive and keep the same warranty.

Overclocking has and always will be lots of fun, and a great way to squeeze every last ounce of juice out of hardware. Disallowing it like this is a bad move on Nvidia's part IMO.

And the potential results of this are more far reaching than just their own cards. If you can't overclock, then you won't be getting extra heat, then you wont need heat dissipation, and whoops, now less people want waterblocks because then the only people buying them would be for aesthetics and to reduce noise instead of as a necessity for intense overclocking - thats a potential loss of a consumer group from the watercooling market, and this could be applied to the aftermarket cooling scene as a whole.

As I've tried to say before, I think this is a step backwards. If somebody could clarify to me why overclocking could pose a potential threat to profits on nvidia's part, let me know.
 
'They [Nvidia] also threaten allocation if you make a card faster than the [stock] GTX 690.
Click to expand...

This also seems insane! I wonder how Asus feels about this. No MARS cards this go around.

They couldnt even tell us how they feel anyway or Nvidia will cut their chip allocation.

source alleging that Nvidia may even cut chip allocations for companies that talk publicly about the matter
Click to expand...
 
Phishy714 said:
Instead of "overvolted" or "higher clock", the different manufacturers will have to advertise with "better warranty!" "Purple color!" "slightly more quiet than the other guy!"
Click to expand...
Better warranties and quieter cards are bad things? News to me.
 
does nvidia replace cards out of pocket when they get overvolted and fried? im pretty sure that the AIB is on the hook to honor their warranty right? which means if a consumer kills their card, the AIB replaces it for free with a chip PURCHASED from nvidia. correct me if im wrong, but this is what makes sense to me, and makes me think nvidia would want to allow OCing and high-performance cards. i dont understand nvidia's motives here.

doesnt matter though, as i buy all AMD. not a fanboy, i just am not a fan of nvidias practices, and i think amd cards look nice. :D
 
MorgothPl said:
From one side I can understand Nvidia point - after all it's them who have to replace GPUs, that were killed by overvolting, when some "noob", also called "first time OCer" fries the GPU by putting the power slider to max :)
Click to expand...

How do you figure? I'm fairly certain it's the board partner that's responsible for warranty issues with their own cards, not NVIDIA themselves.

I don't really see what NVIDIA has anything to gain by doing this.
 
ekuest said:
does nvidia replace cards out of pocket when they get overvolted and fried? im pretty sure that the AIB is on the hook to honor their warranty right? which means if a consumer kills their card, the AIB replaces it for free with a chip PURCHASED from nvidia. correct me if im wrong, but this is what makes sense to me, and makes me think nvidia would want to allow OCing and high-performance cards. i dont understand nvidia's motives here.

doesnt matter though, as i buy all AMD. not a fanboy, i just am not a fan of nvidias practices, and i think amd cards look nice. :D
Click to expand...

Sure, you just had to steal my thunder by a minute, didn't ya? ;)
 
Once again NVIDIA loses sight of the big picture if true. Either you use add-in board partners to build the boards for your products and everyone makes money, with some of the proceeds going to the board makers, or you buy and maintain all the necessary fabrication equipment, staff, and support services needed to build the boards entirely yourself.

The benefit to the latter strategy is complete and total control over your product line. The downside is that there will likely be less innovation of those products due to the signular vision and it may drive customers away, and make your brand less competitive (due to the lack of models, innovations etc.) but you control the costs from top to bottom. This also means that margins may be tighter as your costs are higher especially during the phase where you recoup your investment costs in the processes, buildings, fabs, etc. needed to have that control.

Ask 3DFX how buying STB and making all their own boards worked out for them. They don't seem to understand that while it may hurt your reference card sales somewhat, it helps you move GPUs in general and a lot of advertising and other costs are on the shoulders of the add-in board partners, not NVIDIA. And yes, it is the board makers who are on the hook for warranty replacements. Though I'm sure that there are cases where NVIDIA and the semi-conductor manufacturers are too if they screwed up and shipped ASUS, Gainwad, etc. defective chips.
 
Dan_D said:
Why should NVIDIA care? It's not like ASUS is going to sell a ton of them. I'd bet that even post release the GTX 690 cards would outsell the Mars III 10 to 1.
Click to expand...

Oh Im sure but per the article:

'They [Nvidia] also threaten allocation if you make a card faster than the [stock] GTX 690
Click to expand...

They are a limited edition card so they would only sell a very small amount. Like you said I have no idea why Nvidia would care, seems stupid.
 
Dan_D said:
Why should NVIDIA care? It's not like ASUS is going to sell a ton of them. I'd bet that even post release the GTX 690 cards would outsell the Mars III 10 to 1.
Click to expand...
Probably marketing. This all seems to be a change in pace of marketing.

What I don't understand is why now? The overclocking/enthusiast culture is pretty old now. My only guess would be is they've done some sort of market analysis that says there's enough newcomers that don't care, or enough penetration into the general population who by default don't care, that they're wasting money "over-engineering" their cards.
 
Well, if this is true, they just gave AMD a big opening. I just switched to team green this generation, after being on team red for the last five years. This would make me seriously consider a switch back, even as bad as I hate amd drivers, I hate stifling innovation even more.
 
I wonder if they're having supply problems and can't afford 10% (or whatever) warranty returns.

Or maybe the hardware tolerances aren't appreciable for this generation, and they're trying to prevent any potential bad publicity from failures.
 
I don't understand this move either. Something like the MARS card is testament to what nVidia has accomplished already. It's a beast using technology that is on the shelves. I would never buy one, but I do drool at its capabilities and know it exists. Props to nVidia for that, right?

AMD can run with this one. If they encourage over volting/clocking, I could see a lot more enthusiasts switching sides...
 
Not for me. AMD lost my business over the sad ass state of the Radeon HD 7970 drivers this round.
 
I could see this coming earlier this year right when the 600 series cards were coming out when the 660ti affordable card became the expensive 680 card. All about money and control and selling consumers the cheapest made cards available for highest profit.


Another thing that I experienced was problems with driver support for my MSI GTX 560ti 448 when the 300 series drivers came out. My card was able to do furmark benchmark at 1100 mhz but when I tried to run any futuremark benchmark my card would not keep over clocked settings and my score was slow.

My MSI GTX 560ti 448 was beating most GTX 580s in benchmarks. The performance ended with 300 series driver update that I never should have done. I couldn't figure out how to get the card back to perform how it did just minutes before I did the driver update. I wrestled with the problem for a few months then decided to sell the GTX 560 ti 448 and get a good deal on a HD7950.


My MSI GTX 560 ti 448 still holds the world record score for 3dMark11 in its class at HWBot.org.

http://hwbot.org/submission/2259829_sonda5_3dmark11___performance_geforce_gtx_560_ti_448_7954_marks

It was awesome card and for awhile it was free and able to be pushed till NVIDIA stopped the fun with a driver update.


I have no interest in locked cards from the factory and in a company that will not allow its vendors to take NVIDIA cards and improve them in order to bring the very best video cards to enthusiast.


I think NVIDIA is making a huge mistake by doing what they are doing.

I hope AMD doesn't go the same route.
 
It's probably because people don't bother spending an extra $100 going from a 670 to a 680 since they can just overclock a 670 to 680 speeds. Now Nvidia wants you to spend the extra $100 to get the target performance you originally desired so more profit for them.

Kind of a shitty move but I honestly don't see the point of all these 3rd party vendors anyway. Why pay someone to sell your own product for you? Nvidia surely has enough $ to sell their own damn products and cut out the middle man.

Notice how Apple only makes and sells their own products which have strict QC standards and everyone goes ga-ga over them even though they're very overpriced vs windows computers which are just whored out to the lowest bidder and you have nothing but hundreds of 3rd party companies who's quality can range from poor to high. Guess who's winning...
 
Seyumi said:
Notice how Apple only makes and sells their own products which have strict QC standards and everyone goes ga-ga over them even though they're very overpriced vs windows computers which are just whored out to the lowest bidder and you have nothing but hundreds of 3rd party companies who's quality can range from poor to high. Guess who's winning...
Click to expand...

A hardware forum is probably not the best place to rave about hardware QC at apple. Also apple is handily losing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
 
It's weird how when I'm building PCs it always works out that for me the best choice has been AMD and my friend nvidia. I'm the one picking out the parts and when he wants to build, the nvidia cards are always on top for noise, price, and performance and when I want to build the same is true for AMD. It's like I'm in some sort of proxy brand war with myself.

In any case, I'm disappointed with this and I hope Intel doesn't do something weird like this with Haswell.
 
Dan_D said:
Not for me. AMD lost my business over the sad ass state of the Radeon HD 7970 drivers this round.
Click to expand...

And its amazing that you have missed this that is even posted in your own thread and bang about it still only could be drivers.

People have told you the possibility of it being more than that.
I hope that lack of observance does not carry over to your fault finding.
It does not change matters in regards to people having issues and the Radeon HD 7970 not working as it should in there systems.

LordJuanlo said:
Thanks for this info! When I bought my 7970 cards I didn't want to change my computer, so I installed them on my 3 years old X58 system, and the crashes started. I reformatted, reinstalled... tried everything until I gave up and sold the motherboard, CPU and memory, then bought the X79... and didn't change anything.

After all the reports I have collected on different forums, to me it's more and more clear. The crashes only happen with 79xx cards in X58 and X79 systems. My Z77 computer remains rock solid (in PCIE 3.0 by the way).
Click to expand...

LordJuanlo said:
Got new info from AMD that I'm allowed to share. AMD has identified a potential compatibility issue with a specific manufacturer’s hardware and is working closely with them to resolve the issue. The issue is receiving the highest attention at AMD and they hope to have a solution very shortly. AMD wants to thank all the users that have reported this problem, their feedback has been really valuable for them.
Click to expand...

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33994670
 
Final8ty said:
And its amazing that you have missed this that is even posted in your own thread and bang about it still only could be drivers.

People have told you the possibility of it being more than that.
I hope that lack of observance does not carry over to your fault finding.
It does not change matters in regards to people having issues and the Radeon HD 7970 not working as it should in there systems.





http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33994670
Click to expand...

It was an off the cuff comment. And I detailed out what I did regarding my situation. I went farther than most would have. And the way that is worded it sounds like the fix will most likely come in the form of a driver update, or a firmware update for the graphics cards. It may also come in the form of a BIOS / UEFI update. We really don't know anything more than the fact that AMD has finally acknowledged a problem with the hardware.

We also don't know if this could have been avoided by a better QVL process on AMD's part. In any case I have to go with the problem being an AMD one for the simple fact that AMD cards don't work together in a system, or multiple configurations and simply switching to NVIDIA cards and drivers resolves the problem instantly.

So while I don't claim to know what the actual nature of the problem is, I believe I've satisfactorily isolated it to being an AMD issue. It may not be entirely their fault, but if it's their cards are the one variable that changes and is the difference between a system that isn't usable vs. one that's stable for hours and hours of gaming, I don't think laying the blame largely on them is a mistake, a lack of observational ability, or poor troubleshooting. If it were a specific motherboard manufacturer's design flaw, the problem wouldn't exist on so many different configurations. Especially when X58 and X79 seem to be the common theme where problems are concerned. Seems Z77 and other LGA1155 chipsets aren't effected or aren't as likely to suffer from the problem.

And I'm not walking on egg shells about it. Somewhere in the design of those cards, be it drivers, firmware, hardware, or whatever there is something not right. NVIDIA's made plenty of mistakes too, so I'm not playing favorites or anything. I've come down on them pretty hard about virtually any card with "GX2" in their naming convention. The GTX 590 was a piece of shit, etc. But AMD fucked up something with the 7970's where CrossfireX is concerned. At least that's the conclusion I've reached until I get more information which alters my opinion on the matter.
 
H has always been a place you can get the real data. They go way beyond the call in so many regards that bitching at them is akin to pissing on yourself. We need sites like this.

This is a serious issue, but its not like we didn't suspect shens before and there will be in the future. The competition bw these companies is as fierce as anything in the business world.
 
Dan_D said:
It was an off the cuff comment. And I detailed out what I did regarding my situation. I went farther than most would have. And the way that is worded it sounds like the fix will most likely come in the form of a driver update, or a firmware update for the graphics cards. It may also come in the form of a BIOS / UEFI update. We really don't know anything more than the fact that AMD has finally acknowledged a problem with the hardware.

We also don't know if this could have been avoided by a better QVL process on AMD's part. In any case I have to go with the problem being an AMD one for the simple fact that AMD cards don't work together in a system, or multiple configurations and simply switching to NVIDIA cards and drivers resolves the problem instantly.

So while I don't claim to know what the actual nature of the problem is, I believe I've satisfactorily isolated it to being an AMD issue. It may not be entirely their fault, but if it's their cards are the one variable that changes and is the difference between a system that isn't usable vs. one that's stable for hours and hours of gaming, I don't think laying the blame largely on them is a mistake, a lack of observational ability, or poor troubleshooting. If it were a specific motherboard manufacturer's design flaw, the problem wouldn't exist on so many different configurations. Especially when X58 and X79 seem to be the common theme where problems are concerned. Seems Z77 and other LGA1155 chipsets aren't effected or aren't as likely to suffer from the problem.

And I'm not walking on egg shells about it. Somewhere in the design of those cards, be it drivers, firmware, hardware, or whatever there is something not right. NVIDIA's made plenty of mistakes too, so I'm not playing favorites or anything. I've come down on them pretty hard about virtually any card with "GX2" in their naming convention. The GTX 590 was a piece of shit, etc. But AMD fucked up something with the 7970's where CrossfireX is concerned. At least that's the conclusion I've reached until I get more information which alters my opinion on the matter.
Click to expand...

To not derail this thread any more i will reply to you here.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1708626&page=15
 
Nvidia doesn't want to be blamed or get their named varnished by amateur companies modifying their part that carries their name. It's as simple as that. Aftermarket needs to stay after market. If users are receiving the vanilla board that Nvidia has put massive amounts of money into proper engineering, then their is less chance of YOU receiving a lower quality product.
 
Nemik8800 said:
Nvidia doesn't want to be blamed or get their named varnished by amateur companies modifying their part that carries their name. It's as simple as that. Aftermarket needs to stay after market. If users are receiving the vanilla board that Nvidia has put massive amounts of money into proper engineering, then their is less chance of YOU receiving a lower quality product.
Click to expand...

MSI and eVGA are anything but amateurs.
 
Nemik8800 said:
Nvidia doesn't want to be blamed or get their named varnished by amateur companies modifying their part that carries their name. It's as simple as that. Aftermarket needs to stay after market. If users are receiving the vanilla board that Nvidia has put massive amounts of money into proper engineering, then their is less chance of YOU receiving a lower quality product.
Click to expand...

Name one amateru. Nvidia card producingcompany
 
Filter said:
Name one amateru. Nvidia card producingcompany
Click to expand...

PNY? lol

Either way, There is no point to buy anything but a Reference card from NVidia now since you cant overclock them any higher then some Classified/Lightning card now.

Pity as I was eyeing a MSI Lightning card
 
Nemik8800 said:
Nvidia doesn't want to be blamed or get their named varnished by amateur companies modifying their part that carries their name. It's as simple as that. Aftermarket needs to stay after market. If users are receiving the vanilla board that Nvidia has put massive amounts of money into proper engineering, then their is less chance of YOU receiving a lower quality product.
Click to expand...
Did you even read the thread?
 
DASHlT said:
Either way, There is no point to buy anything but a Reference card from NVidia now since you cant overclock them any higher then some Classified/Lightning card now.
Click to expand...

Sure there is - better cooling and better noise, plus some cards have different power limits that can affect overclocking.
 
DASHlT said:
Sure if a 50-70mhz is worth spending $50-70 extra more.
Click to expand...

Well, you aren't spending $50-70 more, it's $20-30 (or less), and you aren't spending it just for the overclock, you are spending it for the better cooler, which yields better temps and better noise.
 
Forceman said:
Well, you aren't spending $50-70 more, it's $20-30 (or less), and you aren't spending it just for the overclock, you are spending it for the better cooler, which yields better temps and better noise.
Click to expand...

For the same overclock, since you are limited to 1.175v.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top