Big Navi is coming

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by sabrewolf732, Aug 1, 2019.

  1. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Not really. Nvidia has dominated since AMD acquired ATI.

    They've released cards from both companies with their respective sub-brands, but almost all from a marketshare standpoint have been Nvidia.

    Nvidia could have done it any time in the last decade- it would have been the same story for AMD. They did it when it became apparent that Intel was probably actually serious this time.
     
  2. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I stopped worrying about 0.25 seconds later when I realized that they already have said data. I ain't John Conner.
     
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  3. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    haha ok I am not even going to argue with you about how good or not good AMDs brand is.

    The pont is they where not hijacking AMDs brand they where trying hijack Asus / MSIs / Gigabytes and the like.

    It would be like Intel saying to Dell HP Lenovo and all the rest.... ALL your brands belong to Intel. You can sell AMD all you like but never again will there be a Dell dimension with a AMD chip in it. Never shall we see Alienware with anything other then Intel, Alienware now is a exclusive Intel offering or we cut you off.

    How do you think that would have went down legally ? If Intel had done that during the bulldozer years you could make the same BS argument that they have all the market share anyway.

    Point is NV has no right to demand ownership of other companies brand names.
     
  4. Darth Ender

    Darth Ender Limp Gawd

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    it's less about the pragmatic aspects of open source and more about just not being tied to whatever software stack some company like nvidia cares about supporting.

    I roll my own kernels, sometimes build my own xorg and supporting libraries. Needing to build the drm module is required. That code also needs to be in sync with xorg to a degree. All things that aren't reliably possible when someone else is controlling your binary blob which contains both the drm driver and the xorg support.
     
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  5. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    They were requiring separate brands, period.

    Not a problem.

    That wasn't a part of GPP. Separation, not ownership. Their partners existing brands and potential future brands were their own to do as they like.
     
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  6. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    That isn't legal. Hence why they fucking backed off when it came to light.

    There was a history involved. If they said all new brands you roll need to be separate they might have got away with it... but would have been the point of that. The Major brands are all established already. Asus wasn't going to roll "The real gaming brand" to replace ROG which they have invested 10s of millions in.

    Again ask yourself if AMD was on top would NV make the same ask. Of course not. They choose to do it when they knew those brands would go their way.
     
  7. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It's a standard commercial practice, and is absolutely legal. Nvidia gets to decide what their Geforce brand winds up in and who gets to buy their products, just like AMD does.
     
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  8. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    I have some legal experience. NO its not legal. Its legal if they had never done business together and they said upfront our products are not to go into your existing brands with parts supplied by our competition. (That would have ment the companies doing business with them could decide to take on those costs or not) If you have years long history of supply... you can't do what they where doing. Even in less segmented industries like cola. Coke has lost court battles when they have tired to demand stores remove pepsi products. Fuck in europe if Coke signs a contract with a company to have coke coolers (which coke pays for) they have to allow the stores to stock other things in those coolers if the store wishes. (including pepsi)

    GPP was a very grey area. In most countries it is for sure out right illegal. In the US it would have probably lost in court.... I will say American law on such things is greyish. Still doubt they would have won (almost completely certain of it)... but it would have taken years. AMD would have sued and won eventually.... thankfully some good journalists got enough of the details out there for the bad PR shame train to win the day.
     
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  9. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Welp, you're going to have to back that one up. Nvidia didn't find it illegal (you can laugh), and neither did their partners- note the lack of lawsuits- and there were legal opinions given at the time that went both ways, meaning that the legality was only questionable. And that's how businesses work every day.

    This is a poor example: this isn't Nvidia saying that ASUS or MSI cannot sell AMD parts, like Coke saying you can't sell Pepsi at 7-11 or McDonald's. Totally different.

    Nvidia would likely have won outright, but the bad PR wasn't worth it. Losing PR battles can be worse than losing in court, and they cut their losses, which was a smart move. Unfortunately, now they're in a worse position when Intel enters the dGPU market in earnest- not that AMD isn't screwed in that respect anyway.
     
  10. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    As Kyle reported the OEMs felt very unease about the GPP.... but do you bite the hand that is feeding you at the moment ? NV timed their GPP ask when they did for a reason. If 90% of your income relies on NV do you really tell them to Fuck themselves. Especially as the wording of the GPP was very clear... if you tell us to jump we will favor your competition and fucking destroy you.

    Coke and Pepsi do have direct comparibales. Coke in the past have tried to argue that companies selling both if they agree to let Coke swap out their coolers for Coke provided coolers shall agree to not stock pepsi or anything else in them. That seems logical right ? Well it's illegal. They lost that battle. Its like NV saying hey you can sell AMD just not on the same brand (shelf) as ours. NV tried to make it palatable by offering marketing funds.... which is no different then coke providing Coke branded coolers. Here free money just remove our competition from the front part of your store (the coolers we gave your) and put their shit in the back.

    No way in Hell NV would win that in a any court outside of the US which tend to have BS laws written in the 1800s applied by suspect courts to current cases. I do doubt they would win in the US either though. Next time your at the supermarket near you take a look at the drink cooler close to the register... check out the branding on it... and then look and see what's in it ? lol I wonder why do those companies not demand all competing products be removed ?
     
  11. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    His report was one of the groundbreaking ones, but not the only one.

    Again, that's not comparable. Nvidia isn't telling ASUS that they can't make AMD cards, nor was Nvidia telling Amazon that they can't sell AMD cards from ASUS. There is no loss in choice here for the consumer.
     
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  12. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Neither was Coke.

    They could sell pepsi. On the shelf... outside of the cool cooler they provided (or helped pay for).

    NV tried to do the same thing. You can sell AMD... you just can't include them in your premium brand that gets all the eye balls. (its no different then saying you can sell the competitions cola just not next to ours in the best highest traffic spot in the store)

    Its exactly the same thing and NV would have lost in European and Asian courts without a doubt cause coke did. Precedent is set.
     
  13. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Again you highlight the inapplicability of your argument at the beginning.
     
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  14. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    How so ?

    Coke didn't try to stop anyone from selling the competition. (cause they had already lost those cases long ago) They simply demand that under no circumstance would coke and a competing product be featured in the same marketing space. A marketing space that no matter how much "marketing money" coke provided still belonged to the store owner. Hence they could put whatever they wanted there. Cause it was the stores shelf.

    NV tried to tell their stores... you will not put NV and its competition in the same marketing space. Even though they had been doing just that for years. (just like those stores had coke pepsi RC and whoever else they wanted in their coolers in the primo checkout marketing space) Coke never said those coolers must be at the front of your store... cause they didn't need to. Just like NV didn't say hey you can make new NV brands if you want... cause they didn't need to. They knew ASUS wasn't firing NV out of ROG... just like Coke new no store was going to take their thousands of dollars of coolers and hide them in the back of the store.
     
  15. Darth Ender

    Darth Ender Limp Gawd

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    informative. Though, not coming to any conclusion is kind of a cheap cop-out. Rather than just pontificating on which workloads would benefit one arch over the other, they could have probably found specific real-world examples where those arch-specific benefits could be illustrated (in the cases where the underlying functions are supported in both cards). Bonus points for showing a micro-benchmark coded in two ways that reach the same end results that lead to one board performing significantly better than the other with each example. :)
     
  16. Ready4Dis

    Ready4Dis Limp Gawd

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    You say it as if Nvidia is naive. They knew exactly what choice the manufacturers had to make. And again, you say it's AMDs fail for not having control and follow it up by if they had the marketshare. They don't, so stop assuming what they would have done or not done, it's pure speculation. You're saying they failed because if they were in a position they didn't do it... They aren't in said position so you can't say they failed to do anything in that position. What we do k ow is Nvidia IS in that position and tried to use said position to pressure suppliers to drop their competitor from their current branding. If Nvidia did this before the branding was established, nobody cares. When you force someone to produce a new (unknown) branding for a competitor after it's established is why there was such backlash. It was Nvidia failing to direct marketing then later realizing their mistake and using their position to exert pressure.
     
  17. Darth Ender

    Darth Ender Limp Gawd

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    what's funny is that nvidia is living on borrowed time anyway. When intel drops their discrete graphics card, there goes the entire laptop market for nvidia. Amd will have their cpu to keep them in computers but nvidia only has discrete graphics cards. That's a niche that will get very very tight when intel starts moving it's fat anti-competitive ass in. Will be interesting to see how nvidia responds when that shoe drops.
     
  18. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Pretty much the biggest threat to NV is not AMD. Intel is going to boot them out of every laptop design going unless NV finds some sort of niche in ARM based chrome books. (half joking) Intel is also going to boot them out of the super computer market... a market where NV was making a ton of profit. (perhaps not tons of pure revenue but profit like no other market they are in) Intel is also coming for their AI cookies. I doubt AMD does tensor hardware... but Intel probably will. In fact Intel has been talking up their 3D chiplet stacking stuff... specifically saying they are open to including other companies designs. (that would include Google designed chiplets)

    NV really needs to hope Intel Fs up... which isn't impossible, but its not probable that their product is complete crap. Sadly for NV intel only needs to equal them. NV has been gouging and in general not being the most pleasant company to deal with for a long time. I guess being the only game in town is only made worse when the company your forced to deal with knows damn well that is the case.
     
  19. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I say it as Nvidia was more worried about being in control of their branding given that Intel is entering the market. They're not worried about AMD, AMD doesn't compete with their main products.

    I'm making the case that GPP-type agreements with customers are the corporate norm, not that AMD would do something like that, but that they should be expected to.

    They pressured them to use separate branding and partners were free to allocate their branding as they wish.

    Which is what any company would do, and that's the point.
     
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  20. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Eventually, but not immediately, and maybe not ever- Intel's going to need a few iterations and a lot of great execution to crown Nvidia out of any market. Now, the entry-level stuff, the GT250 or whatever? Yeah, that's gone.

    Well, they already have responded- the GPP was part of it, but they've been hedging against Intel since they started pushing GPU compute.
     
  21. Digital Viper-X-

    Digital Viper-X- [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Intel will be playing catchup for years, NV has decades of experience + IP to keep their graphics lines relevant.
     
  22. Darth Ender

    Darth Ender Limp Gawd

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    you can't run a business off of the flagship product. The vast majority of what brings in the dough is your entry/mid market stuff. All the flagship does is get people talking about your otherwise unremarkable and indistinguishable product that you actually need to sell to stay in business.

    That is less important for intel to have to do since greed will do the job for them that brand recognition requires nvidia and amd to need to "advertise" their stuff with top end niche hardware.

    that's one of the reasons why monopolies aren't lookup upon favorably. They dont need to beat nvidia in performance or amd .... just make something good enough to match mid market performance and force oem's into a deal they can't refuse
     
  23. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Exactly in order to remove NV from the mobile market completely all they have to do is match 1660 on their high end. Laptop manufacturers right now are still pushing a lot of 1060 hardware. Anyone that thinks Intel isn't going to be capable of matching 1660 is smoking something.

    If Intel can offer a laptop CPU with onboard XE graphics that even hits 1050 numbers. NV is going to lose a fortune. If Intel can offer a 2 chip solution that equals 1660ti NV is done in the laptop space. It's not like NV is a great value proposition. So for laptops we will have Intel and AMD SOC for the low-mid range laptops.. for the high end Intel CPU + intel GPU (potentially even in chiplet form further reducing cost and power draw) and perhaps AMD + Navi (if AMDs RyzenNavi chiplet parts work and they can attract some OEMs). I don't see much room for Nvidia... perhaps the crazy end of the gaming laptop market where they just sandwich in full size desktop cards. But outside of that... there in serious trouble unless ampere has a lite transistor count, fantastic yields, and performance OEMs can't ignore.
     
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  24. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yeah, I agree 100%. Intel will probably push hard on the OEM market, especially for laptops, which I could see them doing very well giving their existing leverage on the CPU front.

    Nvidia has done a botched job on notebooks (aka Optimus) and anything Intel does almost has to be better. Not sure about AMD, never tried one of their laptops but they don't seem to sell much, if any, of them.
     
  25. Algrim

    Algrim [H]ard|Gawd

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    AMD can win my next laptop purchase if they can match or exceed the x70 performance bracket they're not in now; while my gaming needs are very minimal at this point I didn't consider any option below a 1070 and I don't regret that decision one bit.
     
  26. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    In computer products, 'good enough' is never sexy. You need the best.

    If 'good enough' was the key to the market, then AMD would be market leader 10x over. The RX570 sells once for every 100 1050ti or 1650ti cards sold, even though the RX570 + a PSU to run it are cheaper AND faster than both Nvidia offerings. People want to be in the 'cool kids' club. Mainstream gamers either don't know about AMD, or they go 'EEEW, AMD!' when the radeon brand is mentioned. why? Because Nvidia has the Titans. Nvidia has the 1080s, the 2080s, the sexxy cards that sell the brand. AMD has the hot and loud, sometimes dented cards that are 'great value'.

    In high school I remember having a conversation about cars and asking a girl if she would rather get with a guy who had a Corvette, or a guy with a Viper.

    She said 'Viper' almost immediately, and when asked why, the answer was simple: it's a sexxier car. Even though both were American RWD two-sweaters, the Corvette was faster around the track, and cheaper, but the Viper was more expensive, had much more marketing and awareness and thus had sex appeal.

    That puts a date stamp on my hughschool years, too... I'm getting old.
     
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  27. cjcox

    cjcox [H]ard|Gawd

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  28. Darth Ender

    Darth Ender Limp Gawd

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    and yet the viper is gone...but the corvette remains.

    the argument for why doesn't amd win when it logically should is the entire point of this thread. They've been cheated over decades. It just so happens that some of that time coincides with admittedly inferior products, this doesn't negate what's being done behind the scenes between oems and nvidia and intel.
     
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  29. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    Thanks. That makes a lot of sense, and I see there was nothing to be worried about.

    When I first got the XT card I saw temps reaching 90C in game and I immediately set an aggressive fan profile (making the card super loud).

    After the more recent driver, I reset the fan profile and it seems to be running well now. It is quiet, and I did see up to 99C in Furmark, but I guess AMD is saying this is fine. I believe it.
     
  30. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    Have you even thought about what you even just said? Out of subject which this thread is anyways at this point.

    Well if you got nothing to hide, you should have no problem having a camera in your bedroom so we can see what you do, your wife or significant other do. Hey if your doing nothing wrong . . .
    As well as your daughter, son . . .
    If I was a criminal I would should love to know what you doing and where you were at - would make it real easy to rob you or do some other more insane thing (good thing I am not and there is privacy)
    Then again you should have no problem being listen to and then questioned on what ever we think you are doing or saying is wrong, that rude comment about your neighbor seems hateful and you have weapons in your house you may use on them. Obviously you intend to do wrong because we have to monitor and prevent such things from happening.

    Privacy is a form of protection, if criminals, bad government actors etc. don't know where you are, what you think, what defence you have, how many are home or even in your family - it becomes that much harder for them to actually hurt you. Privacy is a form of ownership where you have some say what you allow to release, without ownership you loose the means to survive - we need cloths, shelter, water, some form of wealth to trade, work etc. take ownership away and you are taking someone's livelihood away. Without privacy you no longer have free expressions of thoughts, practice of your beliefs with fellow people you want to associate with and incentives to create new and better things to make things better (since they will just be robbed by you guess it, criminal taking away your intellectual property). Why would a group get together, sweat, work long hours, put their own money into a project so that it is just stolen by someone else or group (China steals a lot of intellectual property since their government really does not believe in privacy). You would have never seen CPU's, GPU's or most modern things that many take for granted.

    In a nutshell, privacy is a big key in human survival. Sorry you do not see that.
     
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  31. Factum

    Factum [H]ard|Gawd

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    I wonder what that means for overclocking...how much "headroom" is left.
     
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  32. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    I haven't tried overclocking (probably won't, I'm fine with the performance for what I'm doing) but I think there is some.

    The AMD default fan profile only goes up to 42% fan speed at 100C. If you set a more aggressive fan, I'd guess there is still something on the table.
     
  33. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Your correct of course.

    I was giving him a facetious answer... to his post wondering why Linux people give a shit about open drivers.

    Same reasoning I like having a system that is 99% open not 80%. AMD gpus give me a 99% open Linux system... NV 80ish. AMD means I don't have to bolt binary blobs onto my system.

    Your right privacy is extremely important. OSS is as important to many of us. Sadly it still not possible to have a completely OSS system... but running AMD (and Intel) get much closer to that goal at least as far as system software.
     
  34. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    lol, I am sorry for missing the jest, now I feel like an idiot.
     
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  35. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    All good you helped make the point. Open source drivers are something we should all get passionate about. lol

    It may not be realistic to never use closed source software... but system level stuff is almost completely doable right now. As long as you run Intel and AMD stuff.
     
  36. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    yep, there is room for both open and closed source software. To mandate everything open could be rather detrimental. Open source is also very cool when learning and stuff worked on broadly and public in nature. Open sourcing software like the US nuclear strategic defense stuff would probably not be too wise ;).
     
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  37. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Without reading your response, I believe the person you quoted is being sarcastic. He is a strong Linux advocate, after all.
     
  38. Algrim

    Algrim [H]ard|Gawd

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    OSS is very important but just because it's open doesn't mean that it's been vetted and/or, if it has, vetted correctly. How long was OpenSSL out and being used by all sorts of major companies before finding out that it was insecure?

    Of course, you'd argue, because it's open you can vet it with your own eyes. But have you? If not then you're just as potentially insecure as attaching a binary blob to your system.
     
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