Big Brother Wants Black Boxes In Your Car

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The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration wants black box recorders in all new cars so that law enforcement, insurance carriers and others will have access to the data in case of an accident. :eek:

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will later this year propose a requirement that all new vehicles contain an event data recorder, known more commonly as a “black box.” The device, similar to those found in aircraft, records vehicle inputs and, in the event of a crash, provides a snapshot of the final moments before impact. That snapshot could be viewed by law enforcement, insurance companies and automakers. The device cannot be turned off, and you’ll probably know little more about it than the legal disclosure you’ll find in the owner’s manual.
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I thought they already had these in certain models already?

No matter, I've never owned a car that was made within that last 45 years and probably never will. Vintage for life! ;)
 
Despicable.

That said..the half life of this tech before someone posts a spoofer on hackaday is probably on the order of 3 days after release into the wild.
 
They will have some ability to give you speeding tickets automatically as well, just wait.

"You have 30 seconds to adjust your speed to the posted limit or you will be ticketed...you have 20 seconds to adjust your speed..."
 
This is a good thing. Hopefully someday these black boxes will be able to interface with a chip implanted into every driver to verify they are licensed and insured before the engine will start.
 
I wonder how long it will be until they program it to "Auto Squeal" on you for speeding?! Of coarse, the Liberal judges will allow it for "public safety".

Just exactly what freedoms do we have left?
 
(The American people would never allow a box like this to relay secret information, anyway.)
 
bucket said:
They will have some ability to give you speeding tickets automatically as well, just wait.

"You have 30 seconds to adjust your speed to the posted limit or you will be ticketed...you have 20 seconds to adjust your speed..."
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I could see that working like red light cameras, it'll probably send a ticket in the mail to whoever the car is registered to.
 
Big John said:
I wonder how long it will be until they program it to "Auto Squeal" on you for speeding?! Of coarse, the Liberal judges will allow it for "public safety".

Just exactly what freedoms do we have left?
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What are you even saying here? You don't have the freedom to speed now. You wouldn't be losing anything in that scenario.
 
/flame suit on

Something like this would have saved me a hit against my insurance and costing me my deductable. I was the second car stopped at a stop sign, the car infront went to turn (there turn) as a car on the far side didn't stop and started to turn. The car infront of me freaked out, and proceeded to floor it in reverse, right into my car. Now it looks like I rear-ended the SUV, and thats exactly what she told the cops. As the cop couldn't prove my story (yeah for no witnesses sticking around) I get hit with the fine.

That black-box could have proved I was at 0mph and breaks depressed when I was hit. As long as its only used during accidents it might not be that bad.
 
I dont think this is bad thing.
Some cars already have this and is being used in the case of accidents.
As in this case:
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Man-on-trial-for-traffic-deaths-of-Plano-family--101576633.html"Police testified that the crash data recorder showed the Pontiac had its accelerator pushed to the floor. Its speed was recorded at 98 mph just before the air bags deployed."

If they didnt have that information, then they wouldn't have been able to convict this man for killing a family because he was speeding, and not because the breaks failed....

All the people talking about using it to give tickets for speeding, it's pretty clear that is not how it is going to be used.
 
G_Sup said:
How in the hell does it take a snapshot BEFORE impact?????
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A recording loop. It always has the last X # of minutes stored in it. When it detects a crash it stops recording, or is made to stop recording by the crash itself.

Great idea in the sense that it would allow for better, more thorough crash scene investigations. And the data collected could help to make cars safer.

Horrible idea in the sense that it will almost certainly be abused by law enforcement and government at a later date.
 
I don't know why people are surprised. They have been putting them in cars since 1995. I know one guy who has his set up to feed out garbage if someone tries to get info off of it.
 
Using it in the event of an accident would be fine IMO.

It should have to be physically recovered like an airplane black box needs to be before being read, not a wireless box that can be read by any passing cop or stationary sensor.
"Your car is telling me you were speeding 10 minutes ago, 70 in a 55, here's your ticket..."

ECUs can already record engine speed and gear (which, knowing the gear ratios, is all that is needed to calculate speed), throttle position, temperature, etc. So the "Black Box" is there, and recording, it just isn't used in the case of an accident, and it's not tamper-proof (easy to wipe ECU, and would probably be wiped in a serious accident if rescue teams disconnect the battery.) The only time your ECU saves this data in memory is when it throws a fault code (such as if your car were misfiring.) But that could easily be changed.

Scary isn't it, the capabilities are there, just waiting for someone to decide it's legal to use them in all the wrong ways.
 
Big John said:
I wonder how long it will be until they program it to "Auto Squeal" on you for speeding?! Of coarse, the Liberal judges will allow it for "public safety".

Just exactly what freedoms do we have left?
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So Liberal is an Oxymoron then, correct?
 
I would be for this, I was t boned in the drivers door due to a woman passing in the intersection. She told the cops i pulled out in front of her, i got ticketed. Much more to this story but i dont feel like typing it.
 
bucket said:
They will have some ability to give you speeding tickets automatically as well, just wait.

"You have 30 seconds to adjust your speed to the posted limit or you will be ticketed...you have 20 seconds to adjust your speed..."
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This reminds me of demolition man's fining for saying curse words.


FYI, I am only for this if it is used for the purpose of accidents. Otherwise, it could be abused too much.
 
Count me in as against this for anything other than accidents. Way too much potential for abuse, and I could easily see my bankrupt state of California exploiting this as a revenue source under the guise of public safety.
 
OnStar has always been capable of this. I don't agree with it, I'm just not surprised by it.
 
Mackowitz said:
Count me in as against this for anything other than accidents. Way too much potential for abuse, and I could easily see my bankrupt state of California exploiting this as a revenue source under the guise of public safety.
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Awhile back the Obama Dept. of Transportation wanted to tax drivers per mile. It appears this is the first step in that direction.
 
The box isn't entirely necessary, accident reconstruction can get very accurate based solely on skids and damage done to the car. With the skid information alone, you can already calculate the initial speeds of any involved vehicle(s) with around 10% error. No skids means driver error and it's prosecution time.
 
So here we go, so this opens up possibility for cops to give you tickets because they know you were speeding, and not why (like you needed to speed up to avoid an accident or something in the road).
Insurance companies will know how much you drive and how and when you do so, charge you premiums or flat out deny your claims or revoke your coverage.
Car company's will know what you have done with the car and possibly claim you have voided your warranty with your driving habits, or for putting regular instead of premium, or using gas from out of state (as there are 52 different blends of gas across the US and each varies slightly).

Company's and the government already pay millions for various crash and other vehicle testing, there is no need for this at all, just another way for the government to insert itself in yet another area where it is not needed. The argument of well we need to know what happens in a crash, is a farce all modern cars (within the last 10 years) have computers that will tell you what the driver did before, during and after the crash. And as I stated before since as early as the 60's car makers and the government have been doing testing on cars in crashes, and there effect on the human body!

There is just no need for this AT ALL!!!!!!!!!
 
I've got no particular problem with them so long as it only records the final moments before and after the crash, requires a physical removal of the device to read, and there are strict laws governing who can access the data and when.
 
Fail said:
I want black boxes in our Congressmen's ass.
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Yes for this to pass all politician's must now wear a black box that records video and audio and tracks there location at all times, and failure to comply would mean removal from office and jail time.

Sounds fair, when cops send me a ticket for doing 70 on the freeway at 2 in the morning on my way home from work, I know exactly where to find my congressmen so my size 15 can be involved in an "accident" with there ass!
 
wtiger said:
I've got no particular problem with them so long as it only records the final moments before and after the crash, requires a physical removal of the device to read, and there are strict laws governing who can access the data and when.
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Because strict laws will keep the government or insurance companies or anyone in general from violating the laws?
 
KurtFan said:
I dont think this is bad thing.

<snip>

All the people talking about using it to give tickets for speeding, it's pretty clear that is not how it is going to be used.
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Agreed. Although on the slip side, fear is to be expected with new technologies. Especially those that might 'intrude' on what we consider to be private, or at least trivial, information (not to degrade the importance of vehicle parameters post-crash). IMO, as long as there's no link between the EDR and an external network -- be it a cell phone, satellite, or other -- then I think there's no risk to the personal 'privacy' of driving behavior, either real or imagined.

Even worse, can you imagine the EDR reporting your driving habits to your auto insurance company??? Or the insurance companies going through the right channels to get that information? I know there's such an animal out there right now for certain carriers, but I've not researched it enough to know whether that kind of reporting system would be implemented with every new vehicle as the NHTSA is recommending.

That said, I'm going to hang on to my 1993 Bronco for quite some time. Sure it's rusty, big, old, and doesn't get terrific fuel economy, but excluding the PCM, the most-complicated device in it is the windshield wiper motor controller. :p

Disclosure: I've been slowing picking my way through the PCM's programming as well. 8061 assembly. Ugh....
 
GhosT15 said:
/flame suit on

Something like this would have saved me a hit against my insurance and costing me my deductable. I was the second car stopped at a stop sign, the car infront went to turn (there turn) as a car on the far side didn't stop and started to turn. The car infront of me freaked out, and proceeded to floor it in reverse, right into my car. Now it looks like I rear-ended the SUV, and thats exactly what she told the cops. As the cop couldn't prove my story (yeah for no witnesses sticking around) I get hit with the fine.

That black-box could have proved I was at 0mph and breaks depressed when I was hit. As long as its only used during accidents it might not be that bad.
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The cops weren't very thorough then. The lack of skidmarks from your SUV should have shown you didn't brake hard, her gunning it in reverse should have had peel out marks. Unless of you course the accident was superficial (it sounded more serious).
 
SigEpBlue said:
Even worse, can you imagine the EDR reporting your driving habits to your auto insurance company??? Or the insurance companies going through the right channels to get that information? I know there's such an animal out there right now for certain carriers, but I've not researched it enough to know whether that kind of reporting system would be implemented with every new vehicle as the NHTSA is recommending.
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They have that at Progressive, it's called "Snapshot" and I use it on my car (uses a celltower uplink). It's a device that plugs into the computer port and relays information. I get a significant discount because I'm listed as good driver because of it ;)
 
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