Bethesda is Asking for Essays in Ban Appeals

SomeoneElse

[H]ard|Gawd
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Well I mean I use cheat engine for single player games, but just because it's on my system that doesn't mean I actually am using it for something multiplayer and I mean if that is the extent of the anticheat system scanning programs for known cheat software then they may be in the wrong here, I typically use cheat engine for something like Skyrim but without a console as they make it so you don't have to use anything else, as I beat the game legit I either want to test or have fun on another go around without sinking years of my life into something, or explore other story paths like the Witcher 3 to see what would have been different.

I don't understand why people think you are nefarious just because you have something, that is jumping to conclusions, I own a gun doesn't mean I shot someone and maybe just maybe I am not capable of a crime but instead just like target shooting, so by your logic you have zero sympathy for someone using something or having something and being falsly accused? He has a gun so he must have stabbed that person. I mean that is the exact logic you are running on here.
Its actually not even close to the same logic i'm using. You have a cheating program that someone else created outside of the developer of the program. No matter how it was used in this situation or not, their program found it and it did what it was intended to do. That by definition is not a false positive.

By your logic if you had cocaine in your car but didn't use it, its not illegal......

Again the only thing you have to go on is that they "said" they didn't use it for this game but all you have to go on is their word. The evidence is circumstantial but if you don't want to get banned from anything Never install the software to being with. Plain and simple.
 

SomeoneElse

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Banning for a program they have installed but haven't used in relation to the game is just as bad as banning for something like an FPS counter. I've used cheat engine to get past gamebreaking bugs before so it's also not like there isn't a legit use for it, it's basically a roll your own scripthook that can be used live which makes it useful for a number of things. I've also used it to straight up cheat a few times but only in SP games which isn't at all the same thing as cheating in MP and isn't anyone else's business.

Worst of all it shows that they're using the everything including the kitchen sink approach which IME usually means that they're being sloppy and it's probably less likely to catch the actual cheats being used, the proper approach would be to detect the scripthooks being used because anything less is whack a mole at best.
By no means am i defending Bethesda because i know they really f-ed up with this game but to just jump on the hate bandwagon because a few select people got banned for having a cheat program on their PC. I just can't get on board with that. I guess I'm a PC game purist then because I never saw the need to download a third party program to cheat in SP games.
 

Shadowed

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By no means am i defending Bethesda because i know they really f-ed up with this game but to just jump on the hate bandwagon because a few select people got banned for having a cheat program on their PC. I just can't get on board with that. I guess I'm a PC game purist then because I never saw the need to download a third party program to cheat in SP games.

CheatEngine has a wide variety of uses in SP games. I don't use it to make a game easier, but rather make it harder or better. It is a fantastic tool to test a game engine's limitations, and for testing and debugging purposes.

A nice quality of life example is changing field of view in locked down console ports.

Another use for it is making new game modes possible with AI, like removing unit cap restrictions.
 

Arcygenical

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And yet people will still throw their money day one for ES6.

110% no chance this time. Not until the game is well reviewed.

I’m not a FO fan at all, so I don’t care, (I found FO3 and 4 boring, for the most part) but this release is a bit too much for me to blindly trust Bethesda again.

eS6 was Gunnar be a day 1 buy for me, now I’ll wait a week or two.
 

Arcygenical

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By no means am i defending Bethesda because i know they really f-ed up with this game but to just jump on the hate bandwagon because a few select people got banned for having a cheat program on their PC. I just can't get on board with that. I guess I'm a PC game purist then because I never saw the need to download a third party program to cheat in SP games.


I’ve used it a few times in broken SP games as well, like the Witcher. 3. A few game breaking bug workarounds and even to modify boss behaviour since you can pretty much break the game past a certa8n level with most builds.
 

NoOther

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I'm waiting for Bethseda to send me an essay on why I should buy, install, and spend time playing their game. If I deem their essay proves that I should do so, then I will. Otherwise, I will continue my ban.

In fairness, they did. It is called the game overview... Followed by details about the game, the content, the mechanics, etc. So... :D
 

DeathFromBelow

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By your logic if you had cocaine in your car but didn't use it, its not illegal......

Exactly. If you want to cheat in your SP games then it's easy enough to spin up a separate system image on another partition/drive and run them from there. It's safer not to play with trainers and other dubious software on your main setup anyway.
 

Lakados

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So the banned people have changed their stories from, I wasn't cheating I never cheat.... To Well I had some cheat programs installed but I swear I wasn't cheating in this game.... To Well I was using them to cheat in a different game I also had running but not fallout 76.... I love watching cheaters squirm.
 

ZodaEX

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So the banned people have changed their stories from, I wasn't cheating I never cheat.... To Well I had some cheat programs installed but I swear I wasn't cheating in this game.... To Well I was using them to cheat in a different game I also had running but not fallout 76.... I love watching cheaters squirm.

Probably means you are a sociopath.
 
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Its actually not even close to the same logic i'm using. You have a cheating program that someone else created outside of the developer of the program. No matter how it was used in this situation or not, their program found it and it did what it was intended to do. That by definition is not a false positive.

By your logic if you had cocaine in your car but didn't use it, its not illegal......

Again the only thing you have to go on is that they "said" they didn't use it for this game but all you have to go on is their word. The evidence is circumstantial but if you don't want to get banned from anything Never install the software to being with. Plain and simple.

It's not that simple many so called cheat programs use the same routines like cheat engine, cheatcc trainers, artmoney that reads and can change values stored in RAM it's not as easy as saying, smart hackers will just change the name of the program so even if your running it it won't be detected.

Also keep in mind hardware manufacturers have extras that can be flagged as well, just because I have a Logitech G13 that saves my hand from Carpal Tunnel doesn't mean I use the macro system to automate that most developers consider cheating and will ban for even if you don't do it your still flagged because you own and use the device some hardware uses programming logic that gets flagged as well, Are these people cheating?

There is more to it than x is running on a computer thus owner needs to be banned. While there are programs and cheating tools like map hacks for Diablo that are painfully obvious, not all software is devious software, let's take a look at Logitechs newest lighting feature for their speaker system it has a feature that similarly looks like and ises the same kind of logic an aimbot uses, should that person get banned?
 

aliraz

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Its actually not even close to the same logic i'm using. You have a cheating program that someone else created outside of the developer of the program. No matter how it was used in this situation or not, their program found it and it did what it was intended to do. That by definition is not a false positive.

By your logic if you had cocaine in your car but didn't use it, its not illegal......

Again the only thing you have to go on is that they "said" they didn't use it for this game but all you have to go on is their word. The evidence is circumstantial but if you don't want to get banned from anything Never install the software to being with. Plain and simple.

You don't understand the difference between the federal and state government making possession of a dangerous controlled substance which powers narcoterrorists and causes overdoses resulting in deaths illegal, versus a private business stating you can't use third party software to modify session states from their software? Then you're going to pretend the ToS gives the private software company the right to dictate what you have installed on your system? Where on the ToS does it state you can't even have this software installed on your system before you can use their game? It doesn't.

Are you just playing dumb here? No where does it say you can't even have memory modifying software installed on your machine.

And here's the ToS before the sophistry can begin:
https://bethesda.net/en/document/terms-of-service
"
You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots', "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.
"
 
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aliraz

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So the banned people have changed their stories from, I wasn't cheating I never cheat.... To Well I had some cheat programs installed but I swear I wasn't cheating in this game.... To Well I was using them to cheat in a different game I also had running but not fallout 76.... I love watching cheaters squirm.

To you, the only use of a piece of software that can modify session information in a single player game is 'cheating'. I have never needed to use software like that but there are many uses for it outside of cheating.

Let me guess, you also think guns kill people, and having guns should be illegal then? That's the only purpose of a gun right, is to kill? So if some dude claims he's not a murderer to a police officer, to then stating well he does have a gun, to then well he does like to hit up the shooting range; watching that man be accused of murder is something you'd enjoy watching?
 
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NoOther

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You don't understand the difference between the federal and state government making possession of a dangerous controlled substance which powers narcoterrorists and causes overdoses resulting in deaths illegal, versus a private business stating you can't use third party software to modify session states from their software? Then you're going to pretend the ToS gives the private software company the right to dictate what you have installed on your system? Where on the ToS does it state you can't even have this software installed on your system before you can use their game? It doesn't.

Are you just playing dumb here? No where does it say you can't even have memory modifying software installed on your machine.

And here's the ToS before the sophistry can begin:
https://bethesda.net/en/document/terms-of-service
"
You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots', "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.
"

When your use of such software changes the experience of another user because your system is connected to a network and you are playing multi-player than yes, that company can very much dictate what you can do connected to their online experience of their game.
 

SomeoneElse

[H]ard|Gawd
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It's not that simple many so called cheat programs use the same routines like cheat engine, cheatcc trainers, artmoney that reads and can change values stored in RAM it's not as easy as saying, smart hackers will just change the name of the program so even if your running it it won't be detected.

Also keep in mind hardware manufacturers have extras that can be flagged as well, just because I have a Logitech G13 that saves my hand from Carpal Tunnel doesn't mean I use the macro system to automate that most developers consider cheating and will ban for even if you don't do it your still flagged because you own and use the device some hardware uses programming logic that gets flagged as well, Are these people cheating?

There is more to it than x is running on a computer thus owner needs to be banned. While there are programs and cheating tools like map hacks for Diablo that are painfully obvious, not all software is devious software, let's take a look at Logitechs newest lighting feature for their speaker system it has a feature that similarly looks like and ises the same kind of logic an aimbot uses, should that person get banned?
You don't understand the difference between the federal and state government making possession of a dangerous controlled substance which powers narcoterrorists and causes overdoses resulting in deaths illegal, versus a private business stating you can't use third party software to modify session states from their software? Then you're going to pretend the ToS gives the private software company the right to dictate what you have installed on your system? Where on the ToS does it state you can't even have this software installed on your system before you can use their game? It doesn't.

Are you just playing dumb here? No where does it say you can't even have memory modifying software installed on your machine.

And here's the ToS before the sophistry can begin:
https://bethesda.net/en/document/terms-of-service
"
You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots', "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.
"

Look you guys are arguing semantics here. The point is I don't feel sorry for anyone installing third party software to "modify" the game play experience.
Regardless of how much you want to argue if you thinks its right or not. ( and to this point I don't take a stance on, its your own prerogative)
All I said from the beginning is if you have it and get banned I don't feel sorry for you. Uninstall it and move on or deal with the developer's reaction to its discovery.
You won't change my mind on this. I'm not trying to change your mind either, so its a stalemate.

Don't have it installed = won't get banned
Have it installed = potential for getting banned.
This is all that matters.
 

aliraz

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Messages
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Look you guys are arguing semantics here. The point is I don't feel sorry for anyone installing third party software to "modify" the game play experience.
Regardless of how much you want to argue if you thinks its right or not. ( and to this point I don't take a stance on, its your own prerogative)
All I said from the beginning is if you have it and get banned I don't feel sorry for you. Uninstall it and move on or deal with the developer's reaction to its discovery.
You won't change my mind on this. I'm not trying to change your mind either, so its a stalemate.

Don't have it installed = won't get banned
Have it installed = potential for getting banned.
This is all that matters.
fair enough.
 

aliraz

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When your use of such software changes the experience of another user because your system is connected to a network and you are playing multi-player than yes, that company can very much dictate what you can do connected to their online experience of their game.
using it for online games is vile scummery and they deserve everything they get. Having it installed, I would argue that's only like owning a gun. Doesn't mean it's used improperly. If they want to make it where you can't even have it installed and unused, then they should put that in the ToS; though that might be skirting laws.
 

NoOther

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using it for online games is vile scummery and they deserve everything they get. Having it installed, I would argue that's only like owning a gun. Doesn't mean it's used improperly. If they want to make it where you can't even have it installed and unused, then they should put that in the ToS; though that might be skirting laws.

And how do you determine whether they are using it or not when they have it installed and are playing multiplayer games? You are not going to put in the ToS some judgement clause about intentions? There is no court here, when you play online games, you agree to the ToS they provide. If you do not like it, then don't agree to it and don't play it. In the ToS is language that states any attempt to alter the game experience for others is against the ToS, that includes having software installed that can do that very thing. Put it this way, if you weren't connected, they would never know that you even had unauthorized software.
 

Merc1138

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Sadly or not, I will be one of them, as long as it's single player.
WHY?

With everything bethesda has done over the years, including all of the fuckups in their single player games, why in the world would you throw money at them day 1? Wait a week, find out it isn't a dumpster fire at least. At this point it's like going to your "favorite" restaurant to try out a new dish they have on the menu, when every other time you've been there, you end up with the shits the next day and you KNOW it was because of that restaurant.
 

jimthebob

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By your logic if you had cocaine in your car but didn't use it, its not illegal.......

I am not defending either side of this argument as I'm rather quite enjoying this thread. That said, I just dropped in to say your analogy is a little flawed as cocaine is illegal, having software on your PC is not (unless it's stolen/illegally obtained but that's not what this is about). If I have a game on my PC (say C&C Generals) and had 3rd party software installed that allowed me to mod that game but Bethesda detected it and banned me for having it installed, I'd be legit pissed. I'd be asking them to write me an essay explaining why I should come back to and play there game anymore. Just because I have software on my PC doesn't mean I'm using it for your game. It shouldn't be that hard to simply detect if game files/data was altered or not. Feels like a broad stroke to me on there part.
 

tetris42

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By no means am i defending Bethesda because i know they really f-ed up with this game but to just jump on the hate bandwagon because a few select people got banned for having a cheat program on their PC. I just can't get on board with that. I guess I'm a PC game purist then because I never saw the need to download a third party program to cheat in SP games.
If the cheat program was running the same time Fallout 76 was, then I agree, that's just being stupid.

As for not being able to understand why someone would have cheat engine on their machine to begin with, that's a very myopic view of gaming you have of there. I mean jesus, there are literally games that can't be completed without hacks, ones with game breaking bugs, otherwise good games with horrendous shortcomings that a cheat can fix, the list goes on. If you've never run across a game like that, I think all that says is you haven't played very many games or else have had the luxury of playing only highly polished ones.

To sum it up:

Running cheat software the same time an online game is running = asking for trouble
Being banned just for having Cheat Engine installed on your system = 1984 shit, no one with half a brain should defend this
 

Aireoth

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WHY?

With everything bethesda has done over the years, including all of the fuckups in their single player games, why in the world would you throw money at them day 1? Wait a week, find out it isn't a dumpster fire at least. At this point it's like going to your "favorite" restaurant to try out a new dish they have on the menu, when every other time you've been there, you end up with the shits the next day and you KNOW it was because of that restaurant.

Day one is maybe, depends on how bored I am, but I only need two things and I am in:

Single player and mods delivered the same as previous titles. They start charging for mods, I am out.
 

Ebernanut

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And how do you determine whether they are using it or not when they have it installed and are playing multiplayer games? You are not going to put in the ToS some judgement clause about intentions? There is no court here, when you play online games, you agree to the ToS they provide. If you do not like it, then don't agree to it and don't play it. In the ToS is language that states any attempt to alter the game experience for others is against the ToS, that includes having software installed that can do that very thing. Put it this way, if you weren't connected, they would never know that you even had unauthorized software.

It's my understanding that most anti-cheat software mainly looks for active scripthooks and attempts to change what is in memory. It does also seem reasonable to check whether something like cheat engine is running at the same time as the game or even looking for a specific cheat/trainer since it's not a SP game.

Banning based solely on if a program is installed that likely has nothing to do with FO76 seems lazy and heavyhanded especially since everything I've read suggests that CE isn't good for cheating in MP games, I could be wrong about that last bit though since I've never actually researched cheating in MP games.
 

Highwind

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This is going to be hilarious. Bethesda has outsourced academic argument to the playerbase.
To be fair, they've outsourced most aspects of development to the playerbase for years. Yeah, I'm going for the low hanging fruit, but it's delicious fruit.
 
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Lakados

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To you, the only use of a piece of software that can modify session information in a single player game is 'cheating'. I have never needed to use software like that but there are many uses for it outside of cheating.

Let me guess, you also think guns kill people, and having guns should be illegal then? That's the only purpose of a gun right, is to kill? So if some dude claims he's not a murderer to a police officer, to then stating well he does have a gun, to then well he does like to hit up the shooting range; watching that man be accused of murder is something you'd enjoy watching?
Except it’s a multi player game modifying data to the server in this case....

And no guns are fine I like guns use them frequently. But if I was caught with a recently fired gun standing over the body of a recently shot person I might have some explaining to do.
 

Vader1975

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The two guys that got banned because they have cheat engine on their PC deserve the ban....i don't get the whole idea of third party cheating software. If it was just mods then there is something definitely wrong but to openly admit you cheat in other games, I have no sympathy.
Beside the fact that you bought Fallout76 in the first place. ;)
I will disagree as I installed “cheat engine on my pc only to correct FOV in a number of games. Something that should of bee supported by default in each of those games.
 

ManofGod

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Multiplayer gaming should not be the primary focus of gaming but should go back to being an add on. Single player gaming is where it is at. Otherwise, it would be like an author expecting their readers to write the story for them.
 

NoOther

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Multiplayer gaming should not be the primary focus of gaming but should go back to being an add on. Single player gaming is where it is at. Otherwise, it would be like an author expecting their readers to write the story for them.

I don't get that analogy at all. In multiplayer games, you are still participating in the story that the developer has written, you are just participating with other people. Also, there are many games that are designed specifically for multiplayer and are definitely more fun that way.

However, I do think there should be more focus for some games on single player and only add multiplayer in later. Some games are just a lot more fun single player.

All that being said, if it is going to have other people involved and play goes through the companies servers, you are going to be subjected to ever increasingly strict ToS's.
 

ManofGod

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I don't get that analogy at all. In multiplayer games, you are still participating in the story that the developer has written, you are just participating with other people. Also, there are many games that are designed specifically for multiplayer and are definitely more fun that way.

However, I do think there should be more focus for some games on single player and only add multiplayer in later. Some games are just a lot more fun single player.

All that being said, if it is going to have other people involved and play goes through the companies servers, you are going to be subjected to ever increasingly strict ToS's.

Maybe you are right but, to be honest, I still think single player should always be the primary focus first, then multi player afterwards. If you remember Return to Castle Wolfenstein, it was a great single player game. It spawned the free multi player game Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory which, in my opinion, was the best multi player game ever produced.

Edit: A mp game does not have a story without first having a single player game. Heck, you can still play Wolf:ET today.
 

SomeoneElse

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I am not defending either side of this argument as I'm rather quite enjoying this thread. That said, I just dropped in to say your analogy is a little flawed as cocaine is illegal, having software on your PC is not (unless it's stolen/illegally obtained but that's not what this is about). If I have a game on my PC (say C&C Generals) and had 3rd party software installed that allowed me to mod that game but Bethesda detected it and banned me for having it installed, I'd be legit pissed. I'd be asking them to write me an essay explaining why I should come back to and play there game anymore. Just because I have software on my PC doesn't mean I'm using it for your game. It shouldn't be that hard to simply detect if game files/data was altered or not. Feels like a broad stroke to me on there part.
I was applying his logic to this argument, (in which I know cocaine is illegal). I was merely pointing out the fact that the way his argument was pointed, his conclusion would be that an illegal substance wouldn't be illegal if he had not used it.
 
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