Bethesda Charging $2.50 For Horse Armor?

steviep said:
And with these achievment points, can you buy the extra suits, cars, characters, teams, levels and horse armors? My point exactly.
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Perhaps in the future...who knows. Maybe sony or nintendo will do that.

But the achiement point IS what you're earning....in place of those things you listed.
 
WorldRunner said:
Perhaps in the future...who knows. Maybe sony or nintendo will do that.

But the achiement point IS what you're earning....in place of those things you listed.
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Well, isn't that a wonderful replacement for actual content that later has to be paid for. /sarcasm
 
steviep said:
Well, isn't that a wonderful replacement for actual content that later has to be paid for. /sarcasm
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Ok... Another way to look at it.

Be succesful in life. Your achievement for that is having the money to pay $2.50 for horse armor without having to look at as a life-changing purchase. :eek: :eek: :D
 
People can bring up the kameo thing all they want, but that game was never hotly anticipated like oblivion was, and im sure it didnt sell like like oblivion did... probably not by a long shot. Its also to my understanding that for $2.50 you got like 10 costumes or something? they also had timing on their side. in the 1st month or 2 people were willing to mindlessly drop MPs on whatever, 5-6 months later, things are different, that new experience feeling has worn off by now, and i hope people are buying with their eyes open now.


Can you imagine a game like DOA where one of the major things about the game is the costumes? $2.50/costume, and say they made 84 (one of the first two doa's had 100 costumes) extra costumes during development? $210 on costumes alone!


Worldrunner, they can have their achievement points that are only for bragging anyways, if it means i dont(edited) have to pay for bonus material.
 
JSC450 said:
Worldrunner, they can have their achievement points that are only for bragging anyways, if it means i have to pay for bonus material.
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We'll have to disagree there.
 
JSC450 said:
Okay, What do you use your gamerpoints for then?
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To me many of them are a challenge. Obviously "Get a first down" is not a challenge. But I enjoy challenges so ... yeah that's part of it.

The other part of it is that it essentially keeps track of key things I've done in my gaming history w/ the 360. Doesn't mean a whole lot now since there's a short history but in 5 years I'll enjoy looking back at every game I played and every thing I did. We do that as gamers anyway... at least there's something that keeps track of it.

I like that you can see what friends have done too... Sure bragging is part of it but I only brag with friends because...that's what friends do.

Sure bragging is PART of it... For some people it's the only reason. There's no reason why anyone should have 29k right now other than the fact that they want to the highest score. That doesn't necessarily have to be about bragging though...maybe they enjoy the challenge?
 
but worldrunner, im sure youve been playing games and doing those things even before there was a system to keep track of them. thats what playing a videogame is.
 
JSC450 said:
but worldrunner, im sure youve been playing games and doing those things even before there was a system to keep track of them. thats what playing a videogame is.
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I'm talking about specific things. And there's no organized way to keep track of it...and compare with other people (ie friends)

Sure I remember that I played X game and did Y achievement in game...but I don't remember everything...when I did it, etc. I play a LOT of games.
 
WorldRunner said:
Also you guys are attacking this company for something that other companies are doing as well.

You pay money for different kameo outfits too. They're also charging money for different themes for XBL.

Want your favorite NFL team as your gamer picture? fork over some $$$
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Funny, how I wouldn't care about different kameo outfits nor do I care about what my nfl team looks like. They could make the quarterback's name and picture for the 49'ers Shaq for all I care.

I'm not into cosmetic, I'm into the game and mechanics. This pack is purely cosmetic, but I'm glad I don't use horses in Oblivion.

Offering this at the price is insulting...

edit: Even if the outfits for Kameo was free but the outfits needed to be unlock, I wouldn't care. Cosmetics doesn't change the gameplay much, if any at all, for me to care about cosmetics. This horse "armor", while it protects your horse more, doesn't do anything significant.

The biggest difference between the expansion pack and this garbage, is that expansion packs ( atleast good ones ) changes the game significantly, whether by play style -- different characters --, more boss, or levels. But in the end, it needs to have a significant impact on the overall game.
 
Skirrow said:
Its disgusting that you have to pay for horse armour. Especially when they said that there was going to be armour in the game from the get go. They even put up screenshots showing it off.

I wonder what else they removed before release that they are going to charge for.

Next they'll be charging for Object Shadows or an HDR+AA option.

I just want to know how much it will cost for the patch to fix the random CTD's and BSOD's on the pc version.
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Lol, I will sell all my electronics and never game again if companies start selling graphics after the game comes out...
 
You should be able to spend your achievment points on this kind of material. This is not the kind of content that is worthy of a monetary payment. You can sheer a sheep many times, but you can only skin him once.
 
TheToE! said:
You should be able to spend your achievment points on this kind of material. This is not the kind of content that is worthy of a monetary payment. You can sheer a sheep many times, but you can only skin him once.
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QFFT. Achievment points :rolleyes: What a worthy replacement for bonus content! :rolleyes: I'm glad free bonus content for those willing to take the time to earn it still exists on the other 2 console platforms I currently own, and the handhelds... and most other games on PC I own, too.
 
steviep said:
QFFT. Achievment points :rolleyes: What a worthy replacement for bonus content! :rolleyes: I'm glad free bonus content for those willing to take the time to earn it still exists on the other 2 console platforms I currently own, and the handhelds... and most other games on PC I own, too.
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Lol, so now you are trying to say that there is nothing to earn in Xbox360 games? Are you maybe confusing unlocks (stuff already built into the game) with bonus content that you download after you purchase the game?
 
JethroXP said:
Lol, so now you are trying to say that there is nothing to earn in Xbox360 games? Are you maybe confusing unlocks (stuff already built into the game) with bonus content that you download after you purchase the game?
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For all intents and purposes, the horse armor and that extra quest, and all of those suits in Kameo, and the extra cars on other titles ARE, WERE, or SHOULD BE in the game already. There is a huge difference in purchasing an expansion pack to a game, and what amounts to paid unlockables. I would pay a reasonable amount for a large addition to a game (expansion pack) that requires a lot of work, but the extortion that is taking place on the Marketplace and by a couple PC developers is dispicable, IMO. Just remember, it all started like this when you're paying $3 to access and beat the "boss" character in your games, or to visually complete the area that you're in.
 
steviep said:
For all intents and purposes, the horse armor and that extra quest, and all of those suits in Kameo, and the extra cars on other titles ARE, WERE, or SHOULD BE in the game already. There is a huge difference in purchasing an expansion pack to a game, and what amounts to paid unlockables. I would pay a reasonable amount for a large addition to a game (expansion pack) that requires a lot of work, but the extortion that is taking place on the Marketplace and by a couple PC developers is dispicable, IMO. Just remember, it all started like this when you're paying $3 to access and beat the "boss" character in your games, or to visually complete the area that you're in.
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Too Funny. You are making a classic "the sky is falling" argument. Extrapolating all sorts of gloom and doom conclusions for an entire industry based on the actions of a few companies. When has a scenario like that ever played out, except in some cheesy movie? Your assumptions (and you are making a bunch of them) depend on "Frictionless physics" and for both game makers and game buyers to basically ignore common sense and market reality. Now start tossing around words like "Extortion" and that pretty much makes for the punch line. You either have no idea what extortion means, or your sense of degree and severity are seriously out of whack. Either way, your posts make for great comedy.
 
I am well aware of what the act of extortion is, and I am well aware of the exaggeratory nature I used the word in. But be honest with yourself... you find my post funny because it is a doom-and-gloom exaggeration. But if you honestly believe that this isn't "testing grounds" for more than just horse armor, you are the individual that you should be laughing at, not me. In 3 and a half years, when Microsoft brings out their next system, we shall see how that Marketplace has evolved, and how many people will be less excited about the next installment of The Elder Scrolls 5: Mo Money Less Content :)
 
JethroXP said:
Too Funny. You are making a classic "the sky is falling" argument. Extrapolating all sorts of gloom and doom conclusions for an entire industry based on the actions of a few companies. When has a scenario like that ever played out, except in some cheesy movie? Your assumptions (and you are making a bunch of them) depend on "Frictionless physics" and for both game makers and game buyers to basically ignore common sense and market reality. Now start tossing around words like "Extortion" and that pretty much makes for the punch line. You either have no idea what extortion means, or your sense of degree and severity are seriously out of whack. Either way, your posts make for great comedy.
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no no, this is pretty bad. when game makers are already trying to sell us more stuff a few weeks afterthe game came out? this stuff SHOULD have been in the game. it probably was, they just deleted it from the retails bit to suck more money out of people later.
 
steviep said:
That's the sad thing. Remember older Rare games, where if you were a good player you EARNED those fancy new suits/characters/etc? Remember when in-game bonuses were considered .... bonuses? I hate hammering the point, but it's a travesty that what could've been a good concept in the whole XBL Marketplace idea is turning into a way for companies to scrooge thier customers to buying optional add-ons that should be attainable in other ways. Expansion pack? Fine, work hard and make one, and I'll pay for it. But piddly shit like this? Prozzac please :D
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Remember how games used to come with 200 page manuals and booklets explaining the background of the game. Remember how little extras like a coin came standard? Remember how you used to get nice jewel cases to keep your CD's safe?

Now also, remember how modifying games with your own content took a lot of knowledge and know how. Remember how you used to have to have your own tools to add stuff to the game?

There have been changes in the industry for better and for worse. Rising costs in game development have caused many cutbacks in packaging. What used to be considered standard for games has now become relegated to special collector's editions which you have to pay extra for. However on the flip side, what used to be a rare occurence has now become expected to be standard (mod SDK's, yes I know that ES has had construction sets for awhile but other games are expected to have them now too).

You are complaining about these things like the Orrey quests as if you feel cheated that you didn't get it given to you in the first place. Are you upset with the amount of content in Oblivion currently? Do you feel that you didn't get your money's worth? Do you really think that you need the horse armor and Orrey quest to make the game worth your $50? If you do then you obviously have a problem. The amount of content in this game is already far above and beyond almost any other game. It is already worth its $50 and then some. For those that want additional content at an additional cost the option is there for them. If you dont want to buy it then dont. They are not making you pay extra for content that is and or should have been there in the first place. Simply because the game already has content worth far more than the $50-$60 you have paid for it.

Bethesda had no idea what type of pricing would be a good idea for something like this. The only downloads on Marketplace have mainly been skins and other non useful in game content. The Horse Armor is only a slight step up from the skin, but the Orrey and Wizard Tower are even more different from things offered before. They have already shown that they understand the community thinks it is overpriced, so they have lowered the price on the already announced future content add-ons.

I personally think this is nice. The ability to pay for only stuff you want is nice, rather than having to buy an entire expansion pack, only half of which you would want. Once they have time to work out the pricing to a reasonable point I think it will work out well. What do I think is reasonable? I think that if they sell an expansion pack which is basically made up of all the pieces of content you could buy separately that the expansion should be about 80% of the cost if you were to buy it all separately. Why 80%? There is almost always a bundle or bulk discount for things like this.
 
steviep said:
I am well aware of what the act of extortion is, and I am well aware of the exaggeratory nature I used the word in. But be honest with yourself... you find my post funny because it is a doom-and-gloom exaggeration. But if you honestly believe that this isn't "testing grounds" for more than just horse armor, you are the individual that you should be laughing at, not me. In 3 and a half years, when Microsoft brings out their next system, we shall see how that Marketplace has evolved, and how many people will be less excited about the next installment of The Elder Scrolls 5: Mo Money Less Content :)
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Ah...I see, it's ok for you to knowingly use wild exaggerations, but at the same time expect the rest of us to divine your true meaning about things you never even mentioned?

I never said anything about this not being a "testing ground". Of course it is. Large scale digital content delivery is new ground for games, particularly console games. Clearly they are testing the waters. And if that was your point all along, then how did it get mangled into the doom and gloom story you told? And given that it clearly is a test, which only recently started and for which there is very little publicly released results, how does that manage to lead you to your conclusion? The logic you are using is that if you plant a single seed today, you will have a full forest virtually over night. You are completely failing to take into account any external influences on that seed, which is why I find your conclusion laughable.
 
Martyr said:
no no, this is pretty bad. when game makers are already trying to sell us more stuff a few weeks afterthe game came out? this stuff SHOULD have been in the game. it probably was, they just deleted it from the retails bit to suck more money out of people later.
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So first off, trying to say what should or shouldn't have been in the game is an indefensible position. You have no idea, nor do I, or anyone else other than the development team as to what should have been in the game. Had they never released this paid horse armor download, would people have been clamoring for their missing horse armor, because it "should" have been in the game? Of course not, no one missed it until they saw that they could have it for a fee.

And for this type of extra content, doesn't it make sense to offer it very soon after the game releases? It's not an expansion which would make no sense right now, because most people wouldn't be ready for even more areas to explorer. This type of content is meant to be enjoyed while playing the game, not after you've completed it and are looking for more to do.

Deleting something from a game can be just as difficult as adding something. Games are not simple documents where you can just highlight a section and hit delete. There are thousands of files, hundreds of thousands of lines of code, recompiling, re-testing, and all of that takes time and money. They don't simply "delete" something and then opt to make you pay for it separately. I don't doubt that this content was developed prior to the release of the game, but I suspect it was developed as downloadable content all along, because even the mechanism to integrate downloadable content has to be designed, coded, and tested, as well as the content itself. If it all appears simple to you as the end-user it just means that the developers have done a great job making it all appear seamless. But make no mistake, this is complicated work, and they deserve to paid for their efforts.
 
steviep said:
http://us.pgr3tournament.com/

Want to add "gameplay enhancments" and 12 new cars to your PGR3? Want to have the advantage over everyone else on Live without having to work for it? Only 400 points!!
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I think almost all PGR3 fans were glad to see that $5 is a good price for what they added. That will sell a ton...which doesn't help the case of you arguing against this practice :eek:
 
I won't argue that it's a bad deal monetarily (especially when EA sports games are considered). I will argue that because the faster/better cars are not available to those who do not pay extra on top of the $60 they've already paid, and these "gameplay enhancments" won't exist on original copies of the game, it presents a bit of an unfair advantage to many on Live. If anything, these vehicles and this horse armor should be available to those who are skilled enough to earn it in-game, and at the same time they are available for purchase to those who do not want to put in the work to get them in the game.
 
JethroXP said:
Deleting something from a game can be just as difficult as adding something.
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I thought XNA made the game making process a breeze? I'm fairly confident its easy to remove or mask files from/in a game... probably as easy as removing or hiding files from/on your HDD with windows explorer.

(please feel free to skip my rambling below, it really is of no importance, just my thinking process of the above)
the way i imagine it is, you have these files right (sword, horse, creature) then associated with those files, you have different states for each one (ex: Sword;short;daedric;<effect>) and depending on what that "state" command says, thats how your item looks (which really, is just a file isnt it?). well if you delete every instance of that state from the code, its like it was never there. again, i have no idea, but thats what makes sence to me when i think it through. the hard work is in making the object, the bastard work is hiding or removing it and then releasing it as extra content when it was already made to begin with.

They should have given it to us for free, then when they had a BIG upgrade or something, rake us over the coals on that... im sure there would have been half as many people bitching then.
 
The horse armor was shown in preview shots. Why are people even arguing whether it was removed or not to nickel and dime us customers? lol of course it was!

JSC is right. This kind of stuff should be free (as it was previously) and if not free, at least make me feel like I'm getting my money's worth (i.e. an expansion pack with a lot of content that actually required some work). You'd have less than half of this bitching in that case.
 
steviep said:
The horse armor was shown in preview shots. Why are people even arguing whether it was removed or not to nickel and dime us customers? lol of course it was!

JSC is right. This kind of stuff should be free (as it was previously) and if not free, at least make me feel like I'm getting my money's worth (i.e. an expansion pack with a lot of content that actually required some work). You'd have less than half of this bitching in that case.
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Once again, do you feel like the amount of content in Oblivion is not worth $50, or do you feel that if you had horse armor that then it would finally be worth $50? Come on.
 
Erasmus354 said:
Once again, do you feel like the amount of content in Oblivion is not worth $50, or do you feel that if you had horse armor that then it would finally be worth $50? Come on.
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I think you guys are missing the point here. It's a slippery slope that they're leading us on. How would you like it they changed Final Fantasy (or whatever game you like) so that you could only get the ultimate weapon for each character if you pay an extra $2.50? This IS a testing ground, to see how much people will pay for. The game companies are greedy, and if they get the idea that they can start charging for things, then things that we have come to expect in games we know could possibly become "special content." That's what he's (steviep) scared of, and I can't believe that some people don't see that.
 
phoderpants said:
I think you guys are missing the point here. It's a slippery slope that they're leading us on. How would you like it they changed Final Fantasy (or whatever game you like) so that you could only get the ultimate weapon for each character if you pay an extra $2.50? This IS a testing ground, to see how much people will pay for. The game companies are greedy, and if they get the idea that they can start charging for things, then things that we have come to expect in games we know could possibly become "special content." That's what he's (steviep) scared of, and I can't believe that some people don't see that.
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The reason we don't see it is because it isn't there. All of this stuff, Horse Armor for Oblivion, Cars for PGR3, and Costumes for Kameo, are optional content, *not* essential game elements as you guys keep alluding to. They aren't essential to game play. The game as purchased is fully complete without them. However if you want expand your game experience you can, for a small fee. It's like ice cream, you guys seem to be arguing that because chocolate sprinkles are extra, that it will lead to a situation where you'll buy the ice cream but be charged extra for the cone. It simply isn't going to happen.
 
JethroXP said:
It simply isn't going to happen.
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That's what I said ten years ago when companies started removing manuals and making them PDF files on the CD. Now they call them "strategy guides" and charge $19.95 for it.

It's also what I thought twenty years ago when I could go to the store and pick up a video game in a large cardboard box, some disks, a manual and some extras like a newsletter and a novelization of the story. Now I get charged the same price to download just the game from Steam.

Isn't going to happen? It won't if we keep complaining about this insipid practice.
 
JethroXP said:
The reason we don't see it is because it isn't there. All of this stuff, Horse Armor for Oblivion, Cars for PGR3, and Costumes for Kameo, are optional content, *not* essential game elements as you guys keep alluding to. They aren't essential to game play. The game as purchased is fully complete without them. However if you want expand your game experience you can, for a small fee. It's like ice cream, you guys seem to be arguing that because chocolate sprinkles are extra, that it will lead to a situation where you'll buy the ice cream but be charged extra for the cone. It simply isn't going to happen.
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You can finish Final Fantasy without finding the ultimate weapons for your characters, but as in FFVII, you can't do the final limit break without them. Well, eventually, video game companies may not see charging for the final weapon or the final limit break as "charging for the cone," as you put it, because they want to make money and you CAN finish the game without it, but it's not as good. That's the problem I see coming. You guys may disagree, but this extra content idea could turn into bad news in the future.
 
phoderpants said:
You guys may disagree, but this extra content idea could turn into bad news in the future.
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Ah and there-in lies the problem. People like Steviep are acting like that is happening now with this Horse Armor. When it simply isn't. Now they could say that they are scared of the slippery slope this is taking us down, but they aren't. Instead they are flaming Bethesda saying their beloved Horse Armor should be given to them for free!! That is the viewpoint that we are objecting to, not the fact that this could be a slippery slope. In fact I alluded to that in my earlier post where I pointed out that big manuals used to be standard but now are relegated to paying extra for the collector's edition. A sad side effect of the skyrocketing costs of AAA game development.
 
Before you pick on me in particular for my dismal outlook on this ridiculous practice.... consider this credo: the more crap you take, the more crap you will be fed. Justifying this matter with "oh but look at all the other stuff in the game! you're getting a good deal!" has absolutely nothing to do with the fact of the matter, and what the practices happening on the Marketplace are really doing to the industry down the road, or what their repercussions may be.
 
steviep said:
Before you pick on me in particular for my dismal outlook on this ridiculous practice.... consider this credo: the more crap you take, the more crap you will be fed. Justifying this matter with "oh but look at all the other stuff in the game! you're getting a good deal!" has absolutely nothing to do with the fact of the matter, and what the practices happening on the Marketplace are really doing to the industry down the road, or what their repercussions may be.
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"Your making a mountain out of a molehill"

I see nothing wrong with charging for small content additions. Bethesda will probably see that people are more willing to pay for added quests (Orrey package) than they are to pay for something like Horse Armor. Therefore they will gear their future efforts towards adding more of this type of content. If in the future they put less stuff into TES5, reviews will show it and sales will likely suffer. Thus is the world of capitalism *hurray*.

EDIT
How often is content left out of the original product only to be offered later at additional cost? I am sure many musicians with hold music tracks from an album for one reason or another only to release it as a single later. Movie companies often delete content from a theatrical version only to offer a special director's cut or special edition with those deleted scenes later. You dont see people coming back from King Kong demanding that they should have recieved all the content even those little bits that were deleted!
 
steviep said:
Before you pick on me in particular for my dismal outlook on this ridiculous practice.... consider this credo: the more crap you take, the more crap you will be fed. Justifying this matter with "oh but look at all the other stuff in the game! you're getting a good deal!" has absolutely nothing to do with the fact of the matter, and what the practices happening on the Marketplace are really doing to the industry down the road, or what their repercussions may be.
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But can you really blame the Xbox Live Marketplace for this? Bethesda is also charging for the Horse Armor on PCs, which has nothing to do with the Xbox Live Marketplace.

And besides, don't you think the Marketplace is actually a good thing for small and independent developers? Would games such as Marble Blast Ultra really get the kind of exposure they are if not for Xbox Live Marketplace? And if it's good for small developers, why isn't it good for large developers too?
 
I am not arguing about the wonderful aspects of the Marketplace like Geometry Wars or Marble Blast (though they should probably be cheaper). I'm talking about shit like this. It will be interesting to see PC vs console microstransaction sales, as I suspect that a lot more people would spend "Microsoft points" rather than $2. There are plenty of negative examples on the marketplace that are similar to this horse armor and the "enhanced gameplay" and 12 new cars for PGR3. Oh, and TES4 is not a movie and can't be compared to one. All of this nickle-and-diming customers drives me nuts. What's next, Microsoft announces that rev2 of the X360 includes a 100gb hard drive for the same price that people paid for the original Premium pack? :p hehe
 
steviep said:
I am not arguing about the wonderful aspects of the Marketplace like Geometry Wars or Marble Blast (though they should probably be cheaper). I'm talking about shit like this. It will be interesting to see PC vs console microstransaction sales, as I suspect that a lot more people would spend "Microsoft points" rather than $2. There are plenty of negative examples on the marketplace that are similar to this horse armor and the "enhanced gameplay" and 12 new cars for PGR3. Oh, and TES4 is not a movie and can't be compared to one. All of this nickle-and-diming customers drives me nuts. What's next, Microsoft announces that rev2 of the X360 includes a 100gb hard drive for the same price that people paid for the original Premium pack? :p hehe
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It doesn't matter that it isn't a movie, the same concept still applies. You paid for the full game and you got the full game. What is in the full game is determined solely by Bethesda, not by you. Whether you think you should be given Horse Armor for free or not is irrelevant. Bethesda held it back for whatever reason (it may not have been completely finished, it would be interesting to see if you actually have to download texture files for the PC one as that would prove it isn't in the game currently). Just because it was shown in preview shots doesn't guarantee it will be in the final game, full shadows were also shown in preview shots only to later be cut from the game.

As for a new version of the 360 including a new HDD, technology advancement is a b*tch aint it? Did people complain when the slim PS2 was released saying Sony shouldn't have shafted early adopters of the PS2 with that stupid brick of a console? No, people simply said well isn't that neat. Sometimes there is a price to pay to be an early adopter. As it is with computer hardware, if you keep waiting for that next best thing to be released you will be waiting forever, sometimes you just have to take the plunge and enjoy every second of it.
 
Erasmus354 said:
It doesn't matter that it isn't a movie, the same concept still applies. You paid for the full game and you got the full game. What is in the full game is determined solely by Bethesda, not by you. Whether you think you should be given Horse Armor for free or not is irrelevant. Bethesda held it back for whatever reason (it may not have been completely finished, it would be interesting to see if you actually have to download texture files for the PC one as that would prove it isn't in the game currently). Just because it was shown in preview shots doesn't guarantee it will be in the final game, full shadows were also shown in preview shots only to later be cut from the game.

As for a new version of the 360 including a new HDD, technology advancement is a b*tch aint it? Did people complain when the slim PS2 was released saying Sony shouldn't have shafted early adopters of the PS2 with that stupid brick of a console? No, people simply said well isn't that neat. Sometimes there is a price to pay to be an early adopter. As it is with computer hardware, if you keep waiting for that next best thing to be released you will be waiting forever, sometimes you just have to take the plunge and enjoy every second of it.
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the early adoption principle doesnt apply if they content is available at launch, but they choose not to release it. comparing the ps2slim with the ps2 doesnt make sense, the ps2slim wasnt available at launch.
 
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