Best Linux distro.. "best"..

ccman

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You only had to think about it because you were trying to reboot the computer to get into a different OS, which is something 99% of users don't do.

An update notification doesn't prevent you from leaving for the day unless you are a sysadmin. Any regular person just walks out of the office and leaves for the night if they go to shut it down and it says it's updating. The updates don't require user interaction.

ChromeOS only displays the verbose text to a user that it's updating if it's in developer mode. Otherwise it turns itself on in the middle of the night, updates, and then turns itself back off, which is what your Windows 10 computer would do too if you weren't dual-booting it.
1) No, that LAPTOP only has Windows 10. No other OS. The DESKTOP has Windows 7.
2) Apparently you do not work with professionals who need to take their laptop home with them every day and work from home. Some put their laptops to sleep, some shut down.
3) I am not dual booting Windows 10 on my laptop. I am not dual booting Windows 10 in a traditional sense on my desktop. I have Windows 10 on one disk on my desktop. I have Windows 7 on another disk on my desktop. When I installed Windows 10 on my desktop, the Windows 7 hard drive was completely removed. When I am running Windows 10, the Windows 7 hard drive is disconnected. When I am running Windows 7, the Windows 10 hard drive is completely disconnected. Both drives single boot to their respective OSs.
 

heatlesssun

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I could go on, but included applications ("apps") are another big shortcoming for me. In my traditional desktop experience, Photos is far inferior to Windows Photo Viewer. Calculator is terrible. It's great for touch I imagine, but it is too much wasted space for purely keyboard and mouse.

You have some points but there are some things that are at best inaccurate. Windows Photo viewer didn't do a whole lot. Photos is much more functional. You can't even crop with the old one. The new calculator has one redeeming quality that those who complain about it don't seem to know. It's completely resizable and can actually take up less space than the old one. Or it can take up the whose screen if one wants.
 

ccman

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You have some points but there are some things that are at best inaccurate. Windows Photo viewer didn't do a whole lot. Photos is much more functional. You can't even crop with the old one. The new calculator has one redeeming quality that those who complain about it don't seem to know. It's completely resizable and can actually take up less space than the old one. Or it can take up the whose screen if one wants.
I honestly didn't realize (or discover) that Windows 10 Photo had those capabilities. I appreciated that Windows Photo Viewer on Windows 7 was only a viewer and used the open button to use my preferred photo editing program if I wanted to edit a photo. Windows Photo Viewer opens faster in Windows 7 on an AMD E-350 for me than Photo opens on Windows 10 on an i5 5200U though, and I like that the interface persists in Windows Photo Viewer (despite that it's more space efficient to hide the tools when simply viewing).

I just like Windows 7's calculator better. Both calculators seem to do what I need out of them (they seem functionally equivalent to me), but I'm tempted to see if I can copy calc.exe over to Windows 10 as calc7.exe and have it still work. I don't like the iOS calculator's aesthetic either and only begrudgingly use it when I need to make a quick calculation on the go. At least Windows 10's calculator has more options than iOS's (beyond rotating the phone to get a scientific calculator).
 
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flu!d

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You're tilting at windmills. The "apps designed for touch taking up huge amounts of screen real estate" don't exist. Windows has mode that makes it more touch friendly but for the most part it's the same as Win7.

Not at all, ccman summed it up nicely:

I could go on, but included applications ("apps") are another big shortcoming for me. In my traditional desktop experience, Photos is far inferior to Windows Photo Viewer. Calculator is terrible. It's great for touch I imagine, but it is too much wasted space for purely keyboard and mouse. I've grown to view Task Manager as a push. There are still places where old Task Manager was better, but new task manager clearly has improvements. That being said, why task manager when your can use process explorer. Can I have the option to run "desktop" calculator? Likewise, if the only thing I want to do is listen to music, Groove Music is far inferior to Windows Media Player. Fortunately, it's easy enough to revert that, and I realize that Groove Music should be compared to iTunes, not Windows Media Player, Media Player Classic, VLC, WinAmp, etc., and in that comparison adds utility. I respect the goal of Microsoft Edge along the lines of reducing complexity, cleaning up the code, increasing speed, etc. I'm on my Windows 10 laptop now, and I'm using Internet Explorer 11 with YouTube up. I had problems with YouTube on Edge on my older laptop when it was on Windows 10. Now that I have a newer laptop, I should probably give Edge another chance, as the issue was probably with the ThinkPad x120e and the video adapter. That being said, that ThinkPad's experience with Windows 8.x and 10 was bad. Ubuntu and Windows 7 run well on it. Most places where Microsoft replaced a Windows 7 included application with an "app", it has been to the detriment of the keyboard and mouse experience. Also, "apps" load slower that applications. Open Windows Media Player, it pops right up. Open Groove Music, there is a delay between when you see just its background and the actual content loads up. I can't wait (sarcasm) to see what they do with app-ifying mspaint, Windows Defender (only its settings are app-ified), Remote Desktop Connection, Snipping Tool, Steps Recorder, Sticky Notes, Notepad, Character Map, CompMgmt, Disk Cleanup, PowerShell, Command Prompt, etc., etc., etc. I can go on about the "app" experience and how applications are better, but I want to move on for this post.

I want a desktop OS to be a desktop OS.

Reinstalling Windows 10 now and fastboot tripped me up again, booting to the Intel IGP instead of my GTX 980Ti resulting in booting to a blank screen as the IGP on my mobo doesn't even have a VGA connector. Hit F8 on boot to go to safe mode? Nope, safe mode isn't enabled by default. Had to boot using Windows boot media, go to command prompt, type a long winded command to enable safe mode, reboot, smash F8 on boot until the safe mode window appeared, delete NV drivers, reboot, disable fastboot, reinstall NV drivers - Good to go....

Are you serious?

But, like yourself, I only fire up Windows primarily for gaming - Everything else is done under Linux.
 
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heatlesssun

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I honestly didn't realize (or discover) that Windows 10 Photo had those capabilities. I appreciated that Windows Photo Viewer on Windows 7 was only a viewer and used the open button to use my preferred photo editing program if I wanted to edit a photo. Windows Photo Viewer opens faster in Windows 7 on an AMD E-350 for me than Photo opens on Windows 10 on an i5 5200U though, and I like that the interface persists in Windows Photo Viewer (despite that it's more space efficient to hide the tools when simply viewing).

I just like Windows 7's calculator better. Both calculators seem to do what I need out of them (they seem functionally equivalent to me), but I'm tempted to see if I can copy calc.exe over to Windows 10 as calc7.exe and have it still work. I don't like the iOS calculator's aesthetic either and only begrudgingly use it when I need to make a quick calculation on the go. At least Windows 10's calculator has more options than iOS's (beyond rotating the phone to get a scientific calculator).

Too each his own. Windows 10 has its issues but much of what some complain about I don't think is as bad as it's made out to be. Some of new apps aren't the best. Groove Music and TV and Movies are really services apps. Those I readily admit are ecosystem apps. Photos, Mail, Calendar, People and Maps are pretty decent standalone apps now. Photos is certainly better than what it replaced. Calculator, ok, minimalistic design and not pretty but at least the thing resizes and doesn't like a molecule on high DPI screens.
 

heatlesssun

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Reinstalling Windows 10 now and fastboot tripped me up again, booting to the Intel IGP instead of my GTX 980Ti resulting in booting to a blank screen as the IGP on my mobo doesn't even have a VGA connector.

Couldn't you disable the IGP in BIOS?

But, like yourself, I only fire up Windows primarily for gaming - Everything else is done under Linux.

If gaming were the only think that Windows had much better support for than Linux most would be running Linux now.
 

kumquat

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The new Calc is more functional, as is the new Photos. Windows Media Player is still there if you prefer that over the other media apps. IE is still there.

It sounds like those are literally the only complaints.
 

heatlesssun

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The new Calc is more functional, as is the new Photos. Windows Media Player is still there if you prefer that over the other media apps. IE is still there.

It sounds like those are literally the only complaints.

I think the only thing the new Calc lacks over the old are the worksheet calculators. I'll take the resizeability over those. I've lost count of how many times people have said the old Photo Viewer was more capable than Photos. And to me that's sort of sign that one really hasn't used it or think this the old Photo Viewer does more than it really does and it's just one of those "But modern apps suck compared to desktop apps because they lack so much functionality." Except when they don't.

This is Windows 8.x all over again. People making dramatic comments over something they could not possibly have tried. While I can understand complaints over Groove Music and TV & Movies because those are clearly ecosystem apps meant for people to purchase content from Microsoft, Mail, Calendar, Maps, People and Photos are pretty good. And the complaint about Photos in particular is just crazy.
 

flu!d

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Couldn't you disable the IGP in BIOS?

That was the first thing I tried, apparently there is no way to fully disable it on this Asus Maximus IV Extreme Z mobo.

If gaming were the only think that Windows had much better support for than Linux most would be running Linux now.

While I understand the fact that you're fairly biased towards Windows as you're heavily into the Windows ecosystem with the Surface Pro and Office integration, as I've stated previously, there are a number of features the Linux desktop has had for quite some time now that Improve my productivity considerably, features that only now are beginning to show up in Windows. My distro of Linux is also purely a desktop OS and not some bastardised desktop/tablet based operating system (something that has improved marginally with the advent of Windows 10, but is still present in many areas when using the operating system). I prefer the Linux desktop experience and unlike yourself I am not missing out on anything by running it - Except some forms of gaming. So I use the Linux machine as my main rig, hope to one day save ~$200.00 on an operating system if Linux gaming support continues to grow the way it is (and it is growing) and have no issues whatsoever with viruses or malware.

In short, I'm not reliant on Windows at all for the bulk of my computing needs and have no reason to be - Why support corporate greed, which is a big issue in modern society, when I don't need to do so? Ridding myself from the reliance of Windows has been one of the best things I ever did.

The average selling price of a Mac is considerably higher than that of PCs.

Making Linux a far better gaming platform than OSX. As unlike OSX Linux offers almost the same hardware flexibility as Windows and isn't necessarily as GPU limited as an OSX based product with the exception of the stupidly expensive Mac Pro.

As stated previously, the fact that the bulk of PC users run Windows has nothing at all to do with the fact that Windows is necessarily in some way better - It has everything to do with the Microsoft marketing machine and the fact that Windows comes pre-installed on virtually every boxed desktop PC and laptop sold. When I introduce 'average Joe' PC users to Linux due to the fact that they don't need Windows and the malware and infection related issues that come with it, they are amazed that there is this free operating system that does everything Windows can do (from their perspective) and they've never heard of it before.
 
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heatlesssun

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In short, I'm not reliant on Windows at all for the bulk of my computing needs and have no reason to be - Why support corporate greed, which is a big issue in modern society, when I don't need to do so? Ridding myself from the reliance of Windows has been one of the best things I ever did.

If people want to use Linux fine, I don't care. But making this kind of political argument for desktop Linux is never going to appeal to people that simply want to use a computer. We're talking about tools, not a way of life though apparently you do.

Making Linux a far better gaming platform than OSX. As unlike OSX Linux offers almost the same hardware flexibility as Windows and isn't necessarily as GPU limited as an OSX based product with the exception of the stupidly expensive Mac Pro.

Ok, fine. Never have owned an OS X product.

As stated previously, the fact that the bulk of PC users run Windows has nothing at all to do with the fact that Windows is necessarily in some way better - It has everything to do with the Microsoft marketing machine and the fact that Windows comes pre-installed on virtually every boxed desktop PC and laptop sold. When I introduce 'average Joe' PC users to Linux due to the fact that they don't need Windows and the malware and infection related issues that come with it, they are amazed that there is this free operating system that does everything Windows can do (from their perspective) and they've never heard of it before.

And when the 'average Joe' PC user realizes that the bulk of what works on the Windows desktop ecosystem doesn't work on that Linux PC he's like "WFT?" Just like the 'average Joe' smartphone user realizes with a Windows Phone after a while. Again, the only reason to use Windows is because of it's tremendous 3rd party hardware and software support. There is no other reason. None. Nada. Zip. Not sure why desktop Linux users flip out over something so common sense.
 

flu!d

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And when the 'average Joe' PC user realizes that the bulk of what works on the Windows desktop ecosystem doesn't work on that Linux PC he's like "WFT?" Just like the 'average Joe' smartphone user realizes with a Windows Phone after a while. Again, the only reason to use Windows is because of it's tremendous 3rd party hardware and software support. There is no other reason. None. Nada. Zip. Not sure why desktop Linux users flip out over something so common sense.

I provide IT support and repairs for a job and some people just cannot keep viruses and malware off their Windows PC's. Everything is explained before hand and the transition is made to be as gradual as possible taking into consideration smartphones and tablets, most of what average Joe needs out of an OS is available natively under Linux so such issues are rarely a problem, when they are there is an alternative that works just fine, the Windows application can quite easily be installed under Wine or we reimage their Windows install.

Needless to say I've reimaged a Windows install once.

Needless to say the way you're talking Windows is a way of life. I think a PC is a tool.
 

heatlesssun

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I don't agree with that.

I'm simply arguing it from the perspective of many of the folks in this thread. Windows costs money. Linux doesn't. Windows has tons of malware. Linux doesn't. Windows has "spyware". Linux doesn't. Linux is easy and fast to install and all of the updates are controllable. Not so with Windows 10. Linux is infinitely configurable. Windows isn't.

I think that's a perfectly fair list advantages to give to Linux. So there's not much else left besides 3rd part support. That's one that's so clearly in Windows' favor by such a wide margin that debating it is insane. It would be like me saying that a Lumia 950 XL is totally equal to the iPhone 6s Plus in this area when it's clearly not.

It's the only personal reason I have. The thing is that many Linux folks will tell me that I shouldn't have a Surface device because it impugns on the purity of the desktop. Yet they offer no alternative, not even an anemic one like Libre Office. Seriously, going on and on about the evil Microsoft empire and then telling people that how they use their computers is stupid and then thinking that a digital pen is something only a Surface does. But hey, that Linux support on Steam is growing. Now at a whopping 21%!

It's this arrogance, political BS and disconnect with reality why 50 versions of desktop Linux after 20 years have as much market share as Windows Phone. It would be much higher if that community spent half as much time listing as the evil and greedy Microsoft does. Instead of building a better mouse trap they blame the mouse.
 

ccman

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The new Calc is more functional, as is the new Photos. Windows Media Player is still there if you prefer that over the other media apps. IE is still there.

It sounds like those are literally the only complaints.
I listed considerably more than that. Let's dig in on calc.exe:

Windows 10:
Calculator Modes: Standard, Scientific, Programmer
Converter: Volume, Length, Weight and Mass, Temperature, Energy, Area, Speed, Time, Power, Data, Pressure, Angle
Settings: About Calculator

Windows 7:
Calculator Modes: Standard, Scientific, Programmer, Statistics
History
Digit Groupings
Unit Conversion: Angle, Area, Energy, Length, Power, Pressure, Temperature, Time, Velocity, Volume, and Weight/Mass
Date Calculations
Worksheets: Mortgage, Vehicle Lease, Fuel economy (mpg), Fuel economy (L/100 km)
Edit: Copy, Paste, History: Copy history, Edit, Cancel edit, clear
Help: View Help, About

Aesthetic: Windows 10 Calculator looks like a calculator for children or the elderly that you can buy at the store with huge buttons
Windows 7 Calculator reminds me of TI Calculators

For sarcasm's sake, Windows 10 Calculator is clearly better.

I mentioned I made a mistake about Photo. I didn't find those editing features, as true to Windows 10, they were a menu or set of options under a menu/set of options. That trend is another gripe I have about Windows 10. To accommodate touch, they've decreased information density and increased steps to get to there.

Windows 10 feels like they forced the mobile, tablet, and app paradigm and look and feel onto the desktop and applications except where they left "classic" Windows 7 applications and utilities. It is clearly an improvement on Windows 8.x but is still a mix of old and new that doesn't satisfy me as a traditional desktop and laptop user (no touch or pen capability unless I buy a Wacom or touch monitor).

I tried tablet with Windows 7 (clamshell with stylus) and a slate tablet from Dell with Windows 8. Neither appealed to me. I would quickly get frustrated with touch or pen input, think whatever I was doing would be more efficient with a keyboard and mouse, and immediately switch back. I know of artists with Macbooks who swear by the Microsoft Surface (Penny Arcade's Mike Krahulik has one too). I don't do digital art though. I don't take handwritten notes. If I want to draw on the screen, I use ZoomIt.
 
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flu!d

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So your definition of a way of life is something that doesn't work on desktop Linux? That's an easy thing to do.

What are you on about?!

It seems to me like you're in love with your Surface and you're coming into a discussion about Linux in the Linux sub forum trying to justify your purchase?

I had been using Linux part time for a considerable period, two years ago I set up a cheap Linux rig and started to transition, I found that I missed nothing but the occasional game under Windows that I couldn't play under Linux, everything else was covered perfectly with either the same software running natively under Linux, Linux alternatives, or Wine. Since then I have developed my Linux rig further (as well as my Windows rig) and I'm quite happy with Linux and the associated discussions in the Linux/BSD sub forum...

....I fail to see why you keep trying to ram Windows down my throat, I'm not going to accept your point of view any more than you are going to accept mine - Let it go.

It's this arrogance, political BS and disconnect with reality why 50 versions of desktop Linux after 20 years have as much market share as Windows Phone.

Globally, Linux is one of the most widely used operating systems in the world - It's not just the venerable PC that requires an operating system. As far as Linux usage in the PC world is concerned, as stated earlier, there is no way to measure the adoption of a free, distributable operating system - While it can easily be assumed that it's adoption is no where near as high as Windows (and I'm personally glad about that), no one really knows, definitively, what the uptake of Linux is.
 
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heatlesssun

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I mentioned I made a mistake about Photo. I didn't find those editing features, as true to Windows 10, they were a menu or set of options under a menu/set of options. That trend is another gripe I have about Windows 10. To accommodate touch, they've decreased information density and increased steps to get to there.

One could make the information density argument easily with a lot with Windows 8.x apps. Well designed universal apps do a good job of scaling and resizing to fit whatever screen or DPI. That's something that in time will prove to more and more important as we move to higher DPI screens.

In the case of a photo app however, the information is well, the photos. The layout of the 10 Photos app is very clean and straight forward. As soon as one opens up a single image there is a tool bar at the top with recognizable icons. If you hover over them there are tool tips with keyboard shortcuts shown. That's classic desktop design and behavior.

If one doesn't like these apps that's fine but many are making very inaccurate descriptions of some of them. None of the included Windows 10 apps just take up space for the sake of being touch friendly. They are all very good at resizing, much better than many desktop apps in that department. They do use the flat modern aesthetic and while some do not like it they are almost universally adopted principles. Complex UIs might look great for a while but ultimately they fade to back. Also more complex UIs are more difficult to scale and resize.
 

heatlesssun

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It seems to me like you're in love with your Surface and you're coming into a discussion about Linux in the Linux sub forum trying to justify your purchase?

I've never understood this type of thinking. I have no idea how the opinions of complete strangers impact another. I have a ton of PC hardware of all shapes and sizes incuding a non-touch 3x 1080p 3D monitor setup. It's getting long in the tooth but in that few years I'm not gaming as much and honestly the performance of the rig has still pretty very good. I'll probably go all in on a Skylake rig next year but most of the time I'd prefer something that portable, flexible and powerful enough to handle the tasks I do.

I don't have to justify anything regarding the Surface. It's some of the finest portable x86 hardware ever created. As Apple figured out long ago, some people will pay good money for nice hardware. The PC world hasn't really had an equivalent, not something well known anyway. It's just interesting to see what can be done with this type of hardware when people push to make something nice rather than focus on hitting a certain price point.

....I fail to see why you keep trying to ram Windows down my throat, I'm not going to accept your point of view any more than you are going to accept mine - Let it go.

Huh? Again all I've said is that Windows has by far the best desktop hardware and software support there is.

Globally, Linux is one of the most widely used operating systems in the world - It's not just the venerable PC that requires an operating system. As far as Linux usage in the PC world is concerned, as stated earlier, there is no way to measure the adoption of a free, distributable operating system - While it can easily be assumed that it's adoption is no where near as high as Windows (and I'm personally glad about that), no one really knows, definitively, what the uptake of Linux is.

No one is arguing how widespread Linux is. Obviously the Linux kernel based Android is something Linux fans like count. And Android has by far much better hardware and software support than Windows Phone and for that reason I'd never recommend someone get a Windows Phone over an Android phone though personally I use a Windows Phone as I don't do much on my phone besides the basics. If I had more advanced needs Windows Phone probably wouldn't cut it.
 

jwcalla

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Again, the only reason to use Windows is because of it's tremendous 3rd party hardware and software support. There is no other reason. None. Nada. Zip.

I would agree with that. When I have to use Windows (voluntarily) it's precisely because of this reason.
 

CyberJunk

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i use ubuntu mate 15.10 for everything like work and stuff and i just dual boot into windows 10 when i want to play some games. I have both office 2016 corporate edition through the HUP Program and office Libre version 5. Office libre loads way faster than office 2016 and pretty much does all the same functions as office 2016. I really don't see what is so special about microsoft's office when it's kinda bloated. I'm finding it harder and harder to trust Microsoft products with changes in their EULA. why use a paid proprietary software when i can get the same or better performance out of a FREE open source software product?
 

flu!d

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I've never understood this type of thinking. I have no idea how the opinions of complete strangers impact another. I have a ton of PC hardware of all shapes and sizes incuding a non-touch 3x 1080p 3D monitor setup. It's getting long in the tooth but in that few years I'm not gaming as much and honestly the performance of the rig has still pretty very good. I'll probably go all in on a Skylake rig next year but most of the time I'd prefer something that portable, flexible and powerful enough to handle the tasks I do.

I don't have to justify anything regarding the Surface. It's some of the finest portable x86 hardware ever created. As Apple figured out long ago, some people will pay good money for nice hardware. The PC world hasn't really had an equivalent, not something well known anyway. It's just interesting to see what can be done with this type of hardware when people push to make something nice rather than focus on hitting a certain price point.



Huh? Again all I've said is that Windows has by far the best desktop hardware and software support there is.



No one is arguing how widespread Linux is. Obviously the Linux kernel based Android is something Linux fans like count. And Android has by far much better hardware and software support than Windows Phone and for that reason I'd never recommend someone get a Windows Phone over an Android phone though personally I use a Windows Phone as I don't do much on my phone besides the basics. If I had more advanced needs Windows Phone probably wouldn't cut it.

Excellent.

So why do you feel the need to argue all these points in the LInux/BSD subforum?

Is more choice a negative? Should we all stick with Windows simply because it exists? Should we all buy a surface because, in your opinion, it's a fine product comparable to an Overheating MacBook air for the sake of aesthetics?

I also run a range of hardware. Ranging from Vintage Amiga 500/1200's and Commodore 64's, through to MorphOS machines as well as a WIndows PC running 3 x 1080p displays that have since been scrapped for a single 4k display, and many other Windows machines/servers around the house; As well as my Linux rig with 2 x 1080p displays - And I see no reason whatsoever why we should all just cave to Microsoft due simply to their marketing tactics when there is an outstanding alternative available that suits most people just fine based on first hand experience. You may love One Note (which, while I'm sure it's not, just seems like paint for .pdf's to me), but the bulk of PC users don't care for such software.

Are we all delusional because Windows biased users say we are? Is that the crux of your argument here?

I would agree with that. When I have to use Windows (voluntarily) it's precisely because of this reason.

I don't find large corporations respond to issues anywhere near as fast as a diverse, enthusiastic community of users as developers backed by big players in the PC industry. I've complained about issues in applications in public forums before on operating systems rarer than Linux only to have the issues resolved the next day - I've never experienced that with a paid Windows product.
 
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heatlesssun

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So why do you feel the need to argue all these points in the LInux/BSD subforum?

There was a lot of talk about apps that was going on a long before I joined this thread. People are obviously free to use whatever they want and I don't care. But when people start talking about stuff they obviously don't use and they say things that are inaccurate, they are going to get challenged in a place like this. If Linux does the job for one great. If Libre Office does the job for one great. But Libre Office is no where near the capability of Microsoft Office 2016. It's just not.

If Libre Office services the purpose it needs for someone that again is great. There's no need to make Libre Office into something it's not. And it's not Microsoft Office. I think this is a much more sane way to approach it and an attitude that quite frankly is a much better one for apps like Libre Office. If someone comes in with the thing "This is isn't Microsoft Office but it may work fine for me if I give it a chance." they are less likely to be disappointed than "Libre Office is does everything Microsoft Office does for free!".

Is more choice a negative?

Choice is great. But no one like all choices. I choose to use an OS that gives me the most choice in hardware and software. Clearly there are some that think that's an unneeded or undesirable choice.

And I see no reason whatsoever why we should all just cave to Microsoft due simply to their marketing tactics when there is an outstanding alternative available that suits most people just fine based on first hand experience.

There are over a billion PC users. No one person has any clue what suits most people just fine. We can make assumptions and generalizations that may be correct but the point of a PC is to do whatever.

You may love One Note (which, while I'm sure it's not, just seems like paint for .pdf's to me), but the bulk of PC users don't care for such software.

So people don't use computers to store and retrieve information? OneNote is one of the best applications ever for that task.
 

flu!d

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There was a lot of talk about apps that was going on a long before I joined this thread. People are obviously free to use whatever they want and I don't care. But when people start talking about stuff they obviously don't use and they say things that are inaccurate, they are going to get challenged in a place like this. If Linux does the job for one great. If Libre Office does the job for one great. But Libre Office is no where near the capability of Microsoft Office 2016. It's just not.

If Libre Office services the purpose it needs for someone that again is great. There's no need to make Libre Office into something it's not. And it's not Microsoft Office. I think this is a much more sane way to approach it and an attitude that quite frankly is a much better one for apps like Libre Office. If someone comes in with the thing "This is isn't Microsoft Office but it may work fine for me if I give it a chance." they are less likely to be disappointed than "Libre Office is does everything Microsoft Office does for free!".



Choice is great. But no one like all choices. I choose to use an OS that gives me the most choice in hardware and software. Clearly there are some that think that's an unneeded or undesirable choice.



There are over a billion PC users. No one person has any clue what suits most people just fine. We can make assumptions and generalizations that may be correct but the point of a PC is to do whatever.



So people don't use computers to store and retrieve information? OneNote is one of the best applications ever for that task.

There is major formatting and compatibility issues between the various versions of Office?! I fail to see how this is any different to people using Libre Office? And once again I fail to see how your obvious Microsoft bias has any place in the Linux/BSD forums?

I could sit here and claim that you're making Microsoft out to be something it is not, wouldn't change the fact that you believe it to be superior because it works for you.

This is the Linux/BSD forum, go back to the Microsoft forum and continue to claim that Windows is not the most open to vulnerability operating system when it comes to viruses/malware and belittle anyone that points out such issues as a negative and claim that there are other operating systems that aren't as open to such vulnerabilities due to their design - A design that Microsoft is only now trying to mimic but still hasn't got right.

I use Windows, I have many Windows based PC's used for purposes other than web browsing, and I will claim that it is not everything you make it out to be and it is open to major vulnerabilities when it comes to web browsing - Not just due to it's popularity, but due to poor design.

Browse the web on a Windows machine without antivirus and you are an idiot and may still get tricked into installing malware/spyware and or viruses. But stick to browsing the web on a Linux machine and you don't need antivirus on the Windows box provided you don't use it for websurfing.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
There is major formatting and compatibility issues between the various versions of Office?! I fail to see how this is any different to people using Libre Office? And once again I fail to see how your obvious Microsoft bias has any place in the Linux/BSD forums?

Since Office 2007 and the OOXML Microsoft Office files are 100% forwards and backwards compatible with the exception of new features that may be not be backwards compatible. You keep getting on me about injecting Windows into this thread when I didn't start that line of conversation. Then people make one incorrect statement after the other with stuff I know like the back of my hand and then some get agitated when corrected when it's obvious they aren't as familiar with what they were talking about as they thought?

I don't care what you use. But in a place like this when people who know what they are talking about see nonsense, they are going to point it out. That's as it should be. And I've been corrected many times here when I was wrong. It's called learning. I've not said one negative thing here about Linux other than it's hardware and software support relative to Windows. You seem to have an issue with the obvious.

I use Windows, I have many Windows based PC's used for purposes other than web browsing, and I will claim that it is not everything you make it out to be and it is open to major vulnerabilities when it comes to web browsing - Not just due to it's popularity, but due to poor design.

The only claim I've made of Windows is that it has the by far the best x86 desktop hardware and software support. That's it. Whatever else you want to make of the subject I didn't say here.
 

flu!d

Gawd
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
562
The only claim I've made of Windows is that it has the by far the best x86 desktop hardware and software support. That's it. Whatever else you want to make of the subject I didn't say here.

Hardware, yes support is better, although I have had more driver issues under Windows than I have under Linux [gasp!].

Software, sorry, not a chance.

Fact is, Libre Office is a viable alternative to Office for many when you consider the compatibility issues surrounding various versions of office itself. And Windows is by far very prone to malware/spyware and virus issues due to poor design of the OS itself.

And this is the Linux/BSD forum and you are undoubtedly biased towards Windows.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
Software, sorry, not a chance.

Then I'm not sure why you've mentioned Wine so many times.

Fact is, Libre Office is a viable alternative to Office for many when you consider the compatibility issues surrounding various versions of office itself.

Because from Office 2007 there aren't many?

And Windows is by far very prone to malware/spyware and virus issues due to poor design of the OS itself.

That and 90% desktop market share.

And this is the Linux/BSD forum and you are undoubtedly biased towards Windows.

Everyone has biases. Anyone who says that Linux is on par with Windows in terms of software and mentions Wine 100 times clearly has a bias.
 

flu!d

Gawd
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
562
Then I'm not sure why you've mentioned Wine so many times.

What the hell has software support got to do with Wine?!

If it's updates, yes, Wine regularly gets updated. If it's updates for Windows software running under Wine? Yes, that gets updated too. If you are trying to imply that my mentioning of Wine maybe twice now in some way indicates that Linux users are forced to run Windows software packages as native Linux software is somehow not good enough than I'm sorry, but I disagree entirely - There's actually not a single software package I run under Wine on my own Linux PC, I don't need to as all the software I use either has Windows or Linux versions or there is a native Linux equivalent of the software I require that runs just as well, if not better, in my situation.

As stated - The only reason I still have a Windows PC is for gaming titles that I cannot run natively under Linux or situations where a Windows PC is absolutely unavoidable in order to rectify an issue with a clients computing related device. Thankfully native gaming titles under Linux are increasing all the time.

Because from Office 2007 there aren't many?

I work with these concerns every day, there are many compatibility/formatting issues, and you would be surprised at the number of businesses out there running outdated Windows software due to the ridiculous cost of licensing - Not to mention the fact that a great deal of PC users out there aren't exactly computing geniuses and don't even realize there is an OS or applications that require updating - A process that, in the world of Microsoft, occasionally requires payment.

That and 90% desktop market share.

I've already covered the fact that market share is by no means the sole reason for the ludicrous number of Windows infections. The bulk of the issue, that Microsoft is trying to rectify by copying Linux (and failing at), is the fact that Windows has numerous security vulnerabilities.

And the sole reason for Windows market share has to do with aggressive marketing, namely installing Windows on almost every boxed desktop and laptop PC sold - It has nothing to do with the fact that Windows is simply better....

Everyone has biases. Anyone who says that Linux is on par with Windows in terms of software and mentions Wine 100 times clearly has a bias.

I wouldn't assume everyone has biases. I run both operating systems and can see the merits of both. I have, by no means, mentioned Wine 100 times and I have by no means made claim that Linux software is somehow superior to Windows equivalents in every circumstance for every user.

As stated, I think I mentioned Wine in the case of only a handful of my clients maybe twice in this whole thread - And that's in order to run fairly obscure software, like a particular terminal client one of my customers employees preferred for communication with a Linux server running their dealership management system. The fact that you even use terminology like '100 times' indicates a certain childishness.

You claim that Linux enthusiasts in this thread have made claims that are in some way inaccurate, leaving you with a certain entitlement to correct us poor hippies for the sake of the many PC users out there - I could highlight certain threads in the Windows sub forum making claims against Linux that are flatly wrong and highlight a total arrogance. Not to mention many cases of individuals that have obviously never used a modern Linux distribution in their life at all passing their rantings off as pure fact!

But, it's the Windows sub forum, and in some ways I'm a Windows user (under sufferance), so let them rant away amongst themselves if it makes them somehow feel superior.

More choice is a good thing, and there's no reason why x86 needs to be tied to Microsoft just because Microsoft exists. And for the vast majority of PC morons out there that don't even know how to upload photo's off their camera let alone use OneNote, Linux would do them just fine with far less risk of infection. Likewise, for the advanced user that wants and demands control over every aspect of their operating system with no risk of inbuilt spyware phoning home - Linux is the perfect OS for them also.

Windows and to some extent OSX are for the average so called 'professional' or gamer in the middle - A person reliant on the Windows ecosystem.

Geezus, anyone would honestly think this was the Windows sub forum!
 
Last edited:

ccman

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 4, 2005
Messages
443
Speaking of software available for Windows versus software available for Linux, it is very difficult for Windows (or Mac OS X) NOT to have the advantage. Linux is mostly made up of open source software. A skilled programmer can take the source of most anything available for Linux and compile it for Windows. No matter the skill level, a Linux programmer cannot take the source of software which is not available to them (is closed source, has licensing restrictions that are enforced in the legal system) and recompile it for Linux. So if Windows only had one single closed source program available for it, but you could recompile all Linux software for Windows, then Windows would have Linux + 1 programs, would have a "better ecosystem", and would better on that account. Granted, I'm not sure if every open source Linux program can be recompiled for Windows, but many have. Some of the best networking tools on Windows come from software for Linux.

If you are the creator of software, you have to be very careful in Linux. There are legal ramifications for using GPL-licensed code in closed source software. Generally, if you can find code under the BSD or Apache license (or very permissive licenses), you should be ok. Normally this is where I would point out that as a for-profit organization, you wouldn't want to target an operating system with a small user base and these downsides unless you knew the revenue exceeded the cost to produce and maintain the software on Linux, and even at that, you'd have multiple distributions to concern yourself with. However, I'd like to frame this with the vast amount of things out there that actually run Linux in some form or fashion. Android, IoT devices, networking devices (from consumer to enterprise), and more internet servers and supercomputers than run Windows. Clearly there is something to this Linux thing. There is reason to look into Linux even if you only ever run Windows as your main, day to day, operating system.

... so back off!
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Messages
31
I don't mean to backtrack the discussion, but I find myself using Lubuntu and Mint more than anything, Ubuntu recently as well. Though sometimes I really wish you could just have the all the best parts of each Linux distro packaged into one. That's the dilemma though. Haven't had any reasons to check out Fedora/Gentoo -- and still too afraid to try and tame Arch.
 

auntjemima

[H]ard DCOTM x2
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Messages
10,395
I don't mean to backtrack the discussion, but I find myself using Lubuntu and Mint more than anything, Ubuntu recently as well. Though sometimes I really wish you could just have the all the best parts of each Linux distro packaged into one. That's the dilemma though. Haven't had any reasons to check out Fedora/Gentoo -- and still too afraid to try and tame Arch.

Well hello coherent poster! I got my answer on the first page of this mess and installed Mint 17.2. Its working for me and seems easy enough to use for pretty near anyone.
 

flu!d

Gawd
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
562
Probably not but I'd never send a resume to someone done in Libre Office if they were asking for a Word .docx file. It should be fine but if it's not well, first impressions.

I was going through this thread when I noticed this point, a point I hadn't noticed before.

As stated, I run a business and I use Linux and Libreoffice for most of my business needs, and as of yet I have never once had company 'X' ask me for a Word .docx file, never. Files are always exported to .PDF and attached to emails in pdf format. This is done due to compatibility issues with not only Libreoffice but also between various versions of MS Office, it is also done as .pdf files are considerably smaller in size and therefore work better with the limitations placed on most corporate email servers.

So Libreoffice or MS Office, send the file in the correct format and first impressions will never be an issue.
 

Darakian

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 12, 2004
Messages
4,698
I really have to force myself to start using Libre Office - so sick and tired of Microsoft's BS

It's gotten pretty good. Libre is dated in style (office 2003-ish) but the functionality is all there and the default themes in the slide show mode getting to be nice.

As a side note MS office does open the libreoffice format; as does google docs.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Messages
31
It's gotten pretty good. Libre is dated in style (office 2003-ish) but the functionality is all there and the default themes in the slide show mode getting to be nice.

As a side note MS office does open the libreoffice format; as does google docs.

Yeah I can see the style being off putting to some, but functionality comes first. Compatibility is nice, but seamless integration is better. Nobody wants to start a presentation, only to notice halfway through some text box trails off the screen, or some link stopped working.
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Messages
579
I'm a noobie with Linux also, but I did find one version that I liked: Zorin.http://zorinos.com/gallery.html
One of their options includes the desktop: make it look like XP or Win 7.
I installed it on one of my spare rigs with no issues. Installed Office 2003 with no issues. Seems like this may be a good alternative to windows, as I have no desire to upgrade to 10.
 

flu!d

Gawd
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
562
I'm a noobie with Linux also, but I did find one version that I liked: Zorin.http://zorinos.com/gallery.html
One of their options includes the desktop: make it look like XP or Win 7.
I installed it on one of my spare rigs with no issues. Installed Office 2003 with no issues. Seems like this may be a good alternative to windows, as I have no desire to upgrade to 10.

Welcome to the other side my friend.;)
 
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