Battlefield 1 DX12 Benches: Nvidia still king, AMD gaining

noko said:
Nice performance of the RX 480 over the 1060 on a rather big title. From my experience DX 12 like in Deus Ex MD is better on the Nano then DX 11 while the other way around for the 1070. Tomb Raider the opposite with the 1070 running better with DX 12 and DX 11 for the Nano. It will be interesting as more titles hit that have big developers behind it how this shakes out.
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Does DF bother to actually post the averages at the end of their videos?

There isn't even the usual moving average they have on screen.

How do I find out how much better DX12 was in their testing?
 
Ieldra said:
Does DF bother to actually post the averages at the end of their videos?

There isn't even the usual moving average they have on screen.

How do I find out how much better DX12 was in their testing?
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Averages don't mean everything all the time. TaintedSquirrel said that in multiplayer there are times where DX12 stutters. I bet the average is pretty decent though; probably rivals DX11 at least. But if it is true that DX12 has bad stutters in multiplayer, then is it worthwhile to average the same frame rate over time, but choke out when you get into a firefight?

Even in the Digital Foundry video look when the GTX 1060 choked on an explosion in DX12. Maybe it doesn't do that in DX11. Let's pretend that the averages for the DX11 and DX12 run were within 5 fps of each other. A person would think that using either API is a good idea without knowing that explosions cause massive stutters in the game as a 5 fps difference is nothing.


In short, sometimes it's best to look at the visual evidence and decide if you want this experience, or that experience. I didn't link it to make a Red vs Green post. I linked it to make a "Hey look at the game actually running on these cards" post.
 
cageymaru said:
Averages don't mean everything all the time. TaintedSquirrel said that in multiplayer there are times where DX12 stutters. I bet the average is pretty decent though; probably rivals DX11 at least. But if it is true that DX12 has bad stutters in multiplayer, then is it worthwhile to average the same frame rate over time, but choke out when you get into a firefight?

Even in the Digital Foundry video look when the GTX 1060 choked on an explosion in DX12. Maybe it doesn't do that in DX11. Let's pretend that the averages for the DX11 and DX12 run were within 5 fps of each other. A person would think that using either API is a good idea without knowing that explosions cause massive stutters in the game as a 5 fps difference is nothing.


In short, sometimes it's best to look at the visual evidence and decide if you want this experience, or that experience. I didn't link it to make a Red vs Green post. I linked it to make a "Hey look at the game actually running on these cards" post.
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Average, min, max, 99th percentile.

How do I know how much faster DX12 is if they don't post this data? Judging by their comments during the video it seems like there's a big performance gain for them using the 480. Why is this not reflected in Pcgh, oc3d, GameGPU?

The Polish website Razor linked in the other thread was also showing different results if I'm not mistaken.

Do you not find it curious that Pcgh reported 0 change, others reported 5%, others 15%, then you have DF reporting big gains without specifying any numbers...

It's not like this is a repeatable benchmark run that you can sync up and compare two videos side by side, and even then unless you're a robot you can't figure out which one is better overall just by looking at the fps display in a video...

Theres a lot of inconsistency in the results across reviews, inconsistency we have not in other DX11 vs DX12 comparisons.

I've never been a fan of video reviews, and I'm talking about the ones like hardware unboxed where they simply show benchmark graphs with commentary.

Having side by side video is what I expect from someone called DudeRandom84, not from DF whose staff is presumably paid to do this
 
Holy shit batman! Proud owner of a 390x. Can't wait to play BF1 in DX12, wow. And here I was looking to get the 1070. I might wait now and see how long my 390x runs on other DX12 games too.

I"m not CPU limited either, have a 5820k at 4.3Ghz and 16GB DDR4 RAM.
 
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Well now I'm officially perplexed :)

If the AMD gains were due to cpu bottlenecks being lifted it wouldnt make sense to see 5% gain on rx480 and the same 5% gain for fury x at a higher framerate.

If the amd gains were due to gpu side improvements we wouldn't see regression at 4K.
 
The results are all over the place probably due to reviewers using different parts of the game, so it is what it is.
 
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why debate DX11 vs DX12 - if DX12 doesn't come with any visual benefits? Wouldn't you just want to use DX11 if performance is the same?

Also until games are fully developed in DX12 from the beginning, we probably wouldn't see any benefit to a newer DX right?
 
Looks like both camps need to release drivers as the Guru3D results attest to this sentiment. ;)
 
Phlorge said:
why debate DX11 vs DX12 - if DX12 doesn't come with any visual benefits? Wouldn't you just want to use DX11 if performance is the same?

Also until games are fully developed in DX12 from the beginning, we probably wouldn't see any benefit to a newer DX right?
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For me sometimes the DX12 path has less dips in games because it usually has more uniform CPU usage without the spikiness of DX11. Now you have to realize that I'm running AMD hardware that is gravitating towards the DX12 code path, whereas Nvidia's hardware seems to be more amicable with a DX11 code path. In the end as long as the visuals are the same, the gameplay is the same, and your happiness is the same; who cares which path you run? At least for now as we can't predict what happens in the future.
 
same here. except for the bf1 beta every dx12 title ive tried runs better on my system. some have seen good gains others not as much BUT they are more consistent and smoother!
 
cageymaru said:
Now you have to realize that I'm running AMD hardware that is gravitating towards the DX12 code path
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That is a euphemism for

"I'm running an AMD CPU which has terrible IPC and suffers in a large portion of DX11 games, combined with an AMD GPU which has terrible driver overhead in DX11 compounding with my CPU's problems. A combination of Windows 10's new WDDM driver model and inherent DX12 CPU optimizations solves the problems AMD couldn't solve themselves, leading to a gameplay experience identical to what Intel & Nvidia have been offering for the past 5 years."

So while Microsoft is working their asses off to compensate for AMD's shortcomings (Hello, Xbox One) the rest of us are just watching from the sidelines shrugging our shoulders.
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
That is a euphemism for

"I'm running an AMD CPU which has terrible IPC and suffers in a large portion of DX11 games, combined with an AMD GPU which has terrible driver overhead in DX11 compounding with my CPU's problems. A combination of Windows 10's new WDDM driver model and inherent DX12 CPU optimizations solves the problems AMD couldn't solve themselves, leading to a gameplay experience identical to what Intel & Nvidia have been offering for the past 5 years."

So while Microsoft is working their asses off to compensate for AMD's shortcomings (Hello, Xbox One) the rest of us are just watching from the sidelines shrugging our shoulders.
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I dont think its really a shortcoming. AMD is crushing the mid tier market man. So far these AMD 470s and 480s are a way better deal than what Nvidia is offering.

they just dont have any flagships right now.
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
That is a euphemism for

"I'm running an AMD CPU which has terrible IPC and suffers in a large portion of DX11 games, combined with an AMD GPU which has terrible driver overhead in DX11 compounding with my CPU's problems. A combination of Windows 10's new WDDM driver model and inherent DX12 CPU optimizations solves the problems AMD couldn't solve themselves, leading to a gameplay experience identical to what Intel & Nvidia have been offering for the past 5 years."

So while Microsoft is working their asses off to compensate for AMD's shortcomings (Hello, Xbox One) the rest of us are just watching from the sidelines shrugging our shoulders.
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Knew someone would go off the deep end. Thanks for the color commentary!
 
Phlorge said:
I dont think its really a shortcoming. AMD is crushing the mid tier market man. So far these AMD 470s and 480s are a way better deal than what Nvidia is offering.

they just dont have any flagships right now.
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They are not curshing in the mid tier, better deal, not really either. nV was able to get their card to MSRP at launch, AMD the rx 470 and rx 480 were above MSRP until recently which probably hurt their sales, but also with supply chain issues as well that also has hurt their sales.

nV's peformance cards are outselling AMD's mid range cards, so yeah that is not a good sign either.

This is why I stated before, AMD needs to sell a couple million cards quarter to keep what they have now in just the mid range and low end (which by the by comes out to 150k cards a week production), and doesn't look like they are doing that with Polaris cards alone.

Performance cards from nV if you look at total volume of people that have them, 1070 and 1080 already over a million each, which is kinda what I was getting at (think that was last month too). The 1060 expect it to be up there too, because their share % is increasing at a higher rate than either of the performance cards.
 
Phlorge said:
I dont think its really a shortcoming. AMD is crushing the mid tier market man. So far these AMD 470s and 480s are a way better deal than what Nvidia is offering.

they just dont have any flagships right now.
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How is the 8GB 480 a better deal than the 6GB 1060? How is the 470 a better deal than the 1060 3GB?

The RX 460 also looks like a dud compared to 1050/1050 Ti...
 
Phlorge said:
I dont think its really a shortcoming. AMD is crushing the mid tier market man. So far these AMD 470s and 480s are a way better deal than what Nvidia is offering.

they just dont have any flagships right now.
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The 380 and 380X had a much bigger advantage over the GTX 960 and we already saw how that shook out. The 380 was something like 10-20% faster than the 960 across the board and got crushed in sales.

The situation is WORSE today for AMD than it was a year ago.
AMD is going to have to do a lot better than "Loses in pretty much every DX11 game, sometimes wins in DX12 if you look at certain benchmarks."
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
The 380 and 380X had a much bigger advantage over the GTX 960 and we already saw how that shook out. The 380 was something like 10-20% faster than the 960 across the board and got crushed in sales.

AMD is going to have to do a lot better than "Loses in pretty much every DX11 game, sometimes wins in DX12 if you look at certain benchmarks."
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What is it with Guru3d and the 980ti scoring low, it's not the first time this has happened. Either his reference card is actually clocking at 1075mhz or something is wrong with the result.

Edit:

He mentions retesting it at the end of the article... Time will tell, may just have to upgrade to a 390x
 
Even if you remove the 980 Ti from the results, the 390X still had a great showing. Hawaii (Grenada XT) has really proven to be one of the best aging GPUs...it's a mid 2013 design still competing at a high level in Q4 2016.
 
Mercennarius said:
Even if you remove the 980 Ti from the results, the 390X still had a great showing. Hawaii (Grenada XT) has really proven to be one of the best aging GPUs...it's a mid 2013 design still competing at a high level in Q4 2016.
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...Except for the 390 which is only 6% ahead of the 970. And the 980 Ti which is only 5% ahead of the 980.
They're also using ref Nvidia cards so I hope they remember to downclock the factory OC'd AMD cards (non-ref).
 
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Mercennarius said:
Even if you remove the 980 Ti from the results, the 390X still had a great showing. Hawaii (Grenada XT) has really proven to be one of the best aging GPUs...it's a mid 2013 design still competing at a high level in Q4 2016.
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The reviews are a mess, since many cards seem to be doing better the others relatively speaking in a couple of the reviews, as tainted pointed out just now, there must be some type of bottleneck that is showing up in particular parts of the game.
 
Well...regardless....in this performance test the 390X was head of the 980Ti....and this is not the only test to show that in this game. And it's not the only game to have these results either. Based off all the results for this game to date it looks like the 980Ti and 390X will average very similar frame rates here.
 
Mercennarius said:
Well...regardless....in this performance test the 390X was head of the 980Ti....and this is not the only test to show that in this game. And it's not the only game to have these results either. Based off all the results for this game to date it looks like the 980Ti and 390X will average very similar frame rates here.
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Really in DX11? something isn't going right, just like r390x shouldn't be any where near Fiji in DX11 or 12 for that matter.
 
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sorry im beating a dead horse.

WAIT for the drivers from both camps!
 
Brackle said:
sorry im beating a dead horse.

WAIT for the drivers from both camps!
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The thing with DX12, though, is optimization is in the game developer's court. And the DX11 code path in this game is already performing extremely well with the drivers we already have.
 
Yeah I just noticed the weird relationship between fury x, 390x, 980, 970, 980ti and 390...

LOL

390 a notch above a 970, 980ti a notch above 980, 390x closing on Fiji.

Top tier benchmarking :p

Someone has got to explain to me why Guru3d ends up with this and other websites have much more sane results
 
Id imagine Nvidia will sort out the issues with the 980Ti soon enough and itll gain back some ground. Hawaii still kickin ass though. Big hot bastards, I love these cards.
 
psyclist said:
Id imagine Nvidia will sort out the issues with the 980Ti soon enough and itll gain back some ground. Hawaii still kickin ass though. Big hot bastards, I love these cards.
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Or it could be getting Kepler optimization status now.
 
psyclist said:
Id imagine Nvidia will sort out the issues with the 980Ti soon enough and itll gain back some ground. Hawaii still kickin ass though. Big hot bastards, I love these cards.
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Nvidia ? You mean guru3d. I find it quite hard to believe there's some critical bug for 980ti that only shows up in guru3ds testing
 
Armenius said:
The thing with DX12, though, is optimization is in the game developer's court. And the DX11 code path in this game is already performing extremely well with the drivers we already have.
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Then why do Nvidia/AMD release drivers for DX12 optimizations?

I mean that makes no sense!
 
Brackle said:
Then why do Nvidia/AMD release drivers for DX12 optimizations?

I mean that makes no sense!
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There are still optimizations they can do, but they no longer really have to worry about the game code in drivers, or they shouldn't worry about it. The abstraction layers before made it hard for developers to access the certain parts of the hardware before so if they screw something up the IHV's still had control through drivers to fix those problems, they no longer have that access. Because of the abstraction layers drivers had more control in the past.
 
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razor1 said:
There are still optimizations they can do, but they no longer really have to worry about the game code in drivers, or they shouldn't worry about it. The abstraction layers before made it hard for developers to access the certain parts of the hardware before so if they screw something up the IHV's still had control through drivers to fix those problems, they no longer have that access. Because of the abstraction layers drivers had more control in the past.
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I also also have to disagree with you. We know companies are programing titles in DX12 toward 1 company compared to another. Gears of War 4 (nvidia) Deus Ex (AMD). So you know codes will have to be optimized
 
Brackle said:
I also also have to disagree with you. We know companies are programing titles in DX12 toward 1 company compared to another. Gears of War 4 (nvidia) Deus Ex (AMD). So you know codes will have to be optimized
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The problem is its much harder now to replace shaders and what not with DX12 because of async shaders. So lets say a company uses a particular shader that hurts an IHV in DX11 but is good for their own architecture (either side). Now changing that shader with shader replacement won't work too well with async shaders because it throws a monkey wrench in to possible latency and utilization vs. occupancy. BTW, what you stated about what you quoted me on saying, are virtually the same thing lol.

Companies are programming titles in DX12 towards 1 company or the other? And this has changed from what in the past? We saw the same things done in DX11, DX10, DX9 lol.
 
psyclist said:
Hey all,

Just thought id put THIS UP for discussion, Not wanting to start any shit. But there is a definite trend developing in the jump from DX11 to DX12, Nvidia is regressing and AMD progressing in relative terms. 390X beating the 980Ti in all but 4K Ultra! Loving my Hawaii (Bonaire) based cards right about now!
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Looks good to me, thank you for posting this. :)
 
cageymaru said:
Knew someone would go off the deep end. Thanks for the color commentary!
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Yeah, I finally had to ignore him. :) Good to hear that DX 12 games are playing smoother on our AMD hardware, definitely a good sign of things to come. :)
 
psyclist said:
Id imagine Nvidia will sort out the issues with the 980Ti soon enough and itll gain back some ground. Hawaii still kickin ass though. Big hot bastards, I love these cards.
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Not really since how can you sort out issues that are really hardware related. They designed their cards to work well with DX 11 and that is what they are doing.
 
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