Audi Is Trying To Beat Tesla At Its Own Game

[HardOCP News]

Audi is trying to beat Tesla at its own game? I say good luck with that. Unless they come out with a quality vehicle with a price tag well below competing Tesla vehicles, I just don't see it happening. I'm not saying it can't be done but, to be honest, the entire auto industry was asleep at the wheel when it came to electric vehicles. Had it not been for Tesla, the electric car industry wouldn't be where it is now. So, in my opinion, everything these other car makers are doing right now amounts to playing catch up.

Audi's ramping up its electric car plans and hopes to have three models by 2020. It'll also form a new subsidiary to work on autonomous cars. The company's chief executive Rupert Stadler told Reuters that Audi's renewed push for electric cars is a direct result of the emissions scandal that embroiled its parent company Volkswagen. Stadler wasn't spilling the beans on the new cars, but did say there would be a subcompact among them.

 

[Term-X]

Competition is good. But AUDI will not beat Tesla at it's own game, no.

 

[EODetroit]

They absolutely must have supercharging and range. Without that they're doomed to be a footnote in EV history. Do they plan to build a network of superchargers throughout the world, or pay Tesla to access their existing network? If not, I wouldn't touch the Audi vehicle.

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

Audi might have the money, but I'm not sure they have the people who can make a competing product. Tesla showed up on day one with a product that was years, if not decades ahead of everybody else. They've only improved since then. Playing catch up is putting it lightly at this point. The only Achilles heel for Tesla that I see right now is not enough recharging stations around, and possibly lack of a dealership presence.

 

[DiabloRojo]

the entire auto industry was asleep at the wheel when it came to electric vehicles.

*Cough*Nissan*Cough*

 

[westrock2000]

Hey Audi. I don't particularly care about the environment. Can you sell a high horsepower diesel that gets great gas mileage? I mean you keep winning Le Mans and stuff with that diesel.

You know, like an A4 with 450HP and gets 35-40MPG? kthnxby.

 

[Hazard0us]

Audi isn't necessarily announcing vehicles for 2020.

Next year... they might be "creating vehicles for 2022."

Reason I say this is because, in 2015 they "confirmed" an all-electric Q8 for sale in 2018... but haven't said anything about it since.
Audi Confirms 2018 Arrival Of 300-Mile All-Electric Q6 SUV

Funny how they figured it'll do 300 miles on a charge. The Model X (an actual, real EV you can buy) falls way short of that, and only one specific configuration of the Model S can do more than 300 miles - and only on the highway.

Also, don't forget in 2009 Audi debuted a battery-electric version of their R8 called the R8 E-Tron. It never came to market - perhaps because the Tesla Model S was revealed, crushing it in every respect. In 2015 they announced a second-attempt version of the R8, this time for 2016... or maybe 2017... but it is hand-built to order, has no price and won't be available in the USA. it's RWD only which hurts the acceleration AND range of the car. It's July 2016 and no-one has seen the car or had a chance to review it.
2016 Audi R8 e-tron: The Electrified R8 Finally Arrives - Official Photos and Info
2017 Audi R8 e-tron All-Electric Sports Car: Live Photos From Geneva Motor Show

Probably what is going on is... AUDI IS JUST BLOWING SMOKE OUT ITS ASS and we should pay no attention to them until they show us a driveable vehicle.

 

[NeoNemesis]

The only Achilles heel for Tesla that I see right now is not enough recharging stations around, and possibly lack of a dealership presence.

I'd argue that there ability to get product to their customers is their single largest obstacle at this point. Thousands of pre-orders are nice and all, but if you can't deliver the product within a reasonable time-frame you're going to start losing people.

 

[TMCM]

If only GM didn't kill EV1 20+ years ago Think about where electric cars would be today!!!

 

[krotch]

I'd argue that there ability to get product to their customers is their single largest obstacle at this point. Thousands of pre-orders are nice and all, but if you can't deliver the product within a reasonable time-frame you're going to start losing people.

Ya, 2+ years to wait to get a car. No thanks.

 

[Raxiel]

Audi might have the money, but I'm not sure they have the people who can make a competing product. Tesla showed up on day one with a product that was years, if not decades ahead of everybody else. They've only improved since then. Playing catch up is putting it lightly at this point. The only Achilles heel for Tesla that I see right now is not enough recharging stations around, and possibly lack of a dealership presence.

Well, one advantage Audi has now, compared to Tesla back then, is they can use all those EV patents that Tesla made publicly available, so I think the gap has narrowed significantly.

Musk has made it clear he welcomes competition, the hope being that expanding the EV market and making people more likely to pick and EV over ICE will more than make up for any lost sales from competing EV's

 

[M76]

Ya, 2+ years to wait to get a car. No thanks.

Finally communism has caught up with the US. It was very common behind the iron curtain for people to wait years for a new car. Most of the time they based their choice on waiting time. Some crap cars you could get in 6 months but for the better ones (within communist standards) you had to wait years.

 

[Vudaz]

Had the chance to drive the Model X. WTF was that OMG.

 

[5icko]

So much of Audi's success will be predicated on execution. Fortunately for us, they can’t cheat range.

The potential for them to deliver is there, as they've been working on this long before deisel gate. Technology is improving almost daily. Will look more attractive too when gasoline goes back up over four bucks.

I own an Audi Q5 TDI and it's frustrating being in this holding pattern while they bicker with the EPA/CARB over the 3-liters.

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

I'd argue that there ability to get product to their customers is their single largest obstacle at this point. Thousands of pre-orders are nice and all, but if you can't deliver the product within a reasonable time-frame you're going to start losing people.

That's what I meant. Because they are doing it on their own they are having a hell of a time moving these vehicles into customers' hands. All the other auto makers have the ability to shovel out cars to any dealership who wants one on their lot, or has a customer lined up for one.

I think once Tesla gets big enough to really start cranking out production and fulfilling orders, maybe even start taking fleet purchases, we will see the other auto makers start sweating a little.

 

[Dr. Righteous]

Hey Audi. I don't particularly care about the environment. Can you sell a high horsepower diesel that gets great gas mileage? I mean you keep winning Le Mans and stuff with that diesel.
You know, like an A4 with 450HP and gets 35-40MPG? kthnxby.

Super efficiency engines have been around for a while. High HP, low few consumption.
Read this. This is no BS. I remember reading about this in the mid 80s.

Pontiac Fiero Hot Air Engine Setup - Circle Track Magazine

 

[lostinseganet]

Audi might have the money, but I'm not sure they have the people who can make a competing product. Tesla showed up on day one with a product that was years, if not decades ahead of everybody else. They've only improved since then. Playing catch up is putting it lightly at this point. The only Achilles heel for Tesla that I see right now is not enough recharging stations around, and possibly lack of a dealership presence.

They don't want dealerships. I read that it is cheaper to get your car custom tailored to you for them.

 

[krotch]

That's what I meant. Because they are doing it on their own they are having a hell of a time moving these vehicles into customers' hands. All the other auto makers have the ability to shovel out cars to any dealership who wants one on their lot, or has a customer lined up for one.

You're making it sound like Tesla didn't have a choice. No, they chose to go that route, even go to court over it to not have to use the dealership networks.

 

[Twisted Kidney]

Audi is probably the most technologically advanced car manufacturer on earth.

They also have a fetish for needless complication and through that make cars that break down in the stupidest ways.

They practically ARE Tesla.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

*Cough*Nissan*Cough*

Everyone seems to forget Nissan had an EV 11 years before Tesla had a single car. They also forget they out sold Tesla and still out sell Tesla. The ONLY thing Tesla has done is make a luxury version, a $40,000 more expensive version. I like Tesla don't get me wrong, but the worship people give them is really annoying.

 

[krotch]

I like Tesla don't get me wrong, but the worship people give them is really annoying.

I don't get that. I get the worship of EVs that is annoying. Like somehow they'll be able to cover everyone's usage. Great, it works for you. That's awesome. It doesn't work for everyone, so stop trying to tout that it does.

I love when they show like charging station maps, where over half the stations are just some dude's house that was put on the map.

 

[Jim Kim]

Comparing the ev11 to a Tesla is like comparing apples and unicycles.
Audi is a welcome entrant in this field.

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

You're making it sound like Tesla didn't have a choice. No, they chose to go that route, even go to court over it to not have to use the dealership networks.

I wasn't aware that was the outcome of the court battle. Even still, I am certain they have their reasons to avoid what would make an easy way to get their product to market.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

Super efficiency engines have been around for a while. High HP, low few consumption.
Read this. This is no BS. I remember reading about this in the mid 80s.

Pontiac Fiero Hot Air Engine Setup - Circle Track Magazine

Many of these don't work, some are half truths. The main problem with these are heating, it takes a long time to get everything to running temp, they have problems with variation in weather and just plain don't work in the northern areas. Not to mention cars have far more safety requirements (weigh more), have harder EPA tests for MPG/emissions and HP rating today, the same car that got high number MPG and higher HP rated back then, today would be rated far lower. This was also back in the carb days, we have GREAT atomization today with fuel injection, and even better with direct injection.

The problem with that motor was that it ran an AFR of 20:1, meaning ungodly lean, where you could melt pistons, Crane who was given the rights to make kits or engines tested this and backed off because they were worried they would not be reliable at all, even when running forged rods and pistons to try and hold up under such lean running conditions, if you were to run that lean on a normal fuel injected turbo engine, you would get even better mileage than what he was without heating the incoming air, but would also have the same problem as the combustion mixture being to lean and burning pistons of valves. The patents he got on the engine entered public domain some time ago, and people have tried to make it work, as to get a patent, you don't have to have a working anything, just an idea. Well with the patents open for anyone to try their hand at it....No one has been able to get it to work as claimed, and the reason given by friends and people who also worked on the project still alive today? "Secrets", yep, special magic secrets he took to his grave that no one knows....Yeah, ok, thats the first signs of a BS claim right there. WORLD changing tech, that no one actually wants, even when given the rights to, and when the data comes out, or the patents run out and people can test around with it, it never actually works.

There were many engines he made, many of them sold or donated, everyone who got one, the engine did not run right, or did not run at all, however one of the people who worked on the project also got an engine after Smokeys death, and what do you know, HIS engine ran just as claimed....Don't let anyone run tests though! Or actually see anything working, and when push comes to shove the engine ends up detonating under normal driving so now the engine can never be tested. Lol, yeah....Ok.

All this was, assuming it ever worked, was an ultra lean engine, admitted by the person who tuned the carbs, that it was running at least 20:1, while most turbo cars are going to be far richer around 12:1, running 20:1 and only getting 50MPG at best (highway cruising, not average), is actually piss poor.

These types of engines are known as adiabatic engines, hot running, ultra lean, and are nothing new, they just don't work, or if they do, don't work for long because they detonate very easy or melt pistons. There has been work on ceramic and carbon-carbon pistons etc to handle these temps, but those kinds of materials are ungodly expensive.

 

[krotch]

I wasn't aware that was the outcome of the court battle. Even still, I am certain they have their reasons to avoid what would make an easy way to get their product to market.

My guess would be that it's easier to customize customer cars, less overhead, and the profit goes directly to them and not partially to a dealership network. I'm not sure, I don't know much about car sales.

But ya, dealerships were fuming that the Tesla wasn't going to be sold in their dealerships. A lot of states have restrictive laws disallowing auto manufacturers from owning dealerships. They have a big court case right now in Utah. Going to the Supreme Court there.

 

[britjh22]

Hey Audi. I don't particularly care about the environment. Can you sell a high horsepower diesel that gets great gas mileage? I mean you keep winning Le Mans and stuff with that diesel.

You know, like an A4 with 450HP and gets 35-40MPG? kthnxby.

What you want is an Audi equivalent to a BMW 335d, however, forget about 450 HP. 450 Ft-lbs of torque yes, but even the 6.0 Liter V12 TDI that was available in the Q7 was only 490 HP. There is no way you could fit a diesel engine large enough to get 450 HP in an A4. Besides, 275 HP and 425 TQ is probably really what you want.

 

[nutzo]

If only GM didn't kill EV1 20+ years ago Think about where electric cars would be today!!!

Breaking down and being recalled? Resulting in more people never wanting an electric car due to the poor designs and terrible reliability?

Well at least they would still be better than Fiat/Chrysler products

 

[westrock2000]

What you want is an Audi equivalent to a BMW 335d, however, forget about 450 HP. 450 Ft-lbs of torque yes, but even the 6.0 Liter V12 TDI that was available in the Q7 was only 490 HP. There is no way you could fit a diesel engine large enough to get 450 HP in an A4. Besides, 275 HP and 425 TQ is probably really what you want.

That would indicate about a 3-4K RPM shift point......boring! I want a sporty diesel, not a regular diesel. Audi is the only one that has taken a sporty diesel seriously. I'm just saying, a diesel that can shift at at least 5K would be impressive in a production car.

But pneumatic valves will be the next big thing in combustion engines and getting 300HP out of small V6's and low 200's out of 4 cylinders will be common place (non forced induction). If fuel prices stay where they are for the last couple years, we will see a renewed interest in combustion engines.

 

[Quix]

Audi has a lot of expertise when it comes to selling luxury cars, if they can get the power train right I can see them competing with Tesla. Tesla doesn't have the power of VW behind them providing support, and that's particularly evident if you've ever driven (or even sat inside) a Tesla Model S. It's nice, but it's not $60,000+ nice. If Audi competes on price and beats them on creature comforts I can see them selling a lot of cars. And there are also a lot of Audi fans to think about, they'll buy one even if it's slightly worse than a Tesla. And don't forget that the most important technology in a Tesla is the battery, and they don't own the designs on those. Audi could just buy the same battery technology.

 

[thesmokingman]

I would bet that Audi would lean on its familial ties and dip into the families expertise bin.

What you want is an Audi equivalent to a BMW 335d, however, forget about 450 HP. 450 Ft-lbs of torque yes, but even the 6.0 Liter V12 TDI that was available in the Q7 was only 490 HP. There is no way you could fit a diesel engine large enough to get 450 HP in an A4. Besides, 275 HP and 425 TQ is probably really what you want.

If I read right, the new 2017 Q7 etron will put out 260hp/520ft which is a crazy combo given it's a hybrid. I wish they had used Porsche's energy recovery on the exhaust scroll but instead are using an electric turbo which is pretty cool in its own right.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

I would bet that Audi would lean on its familial ties and dip into the families expertise bin.



If I read right, the new 2017 Q7 etron will put out 260hp/520ft which is a crazy combo given it's a hybrid. I wish they had used Porsche's energy recovery on the exhaust scroll but instead are using an electric turbo which is pretty cool in its own right.

The electric turbos are the way to go, the new systems recover electrical power for charging and powering the intake side of the unit, F1 engines are going this route.

 

[thesmokingman]

I will have to upgrade my twinscroll to electric. And I thought I had instant boost!

 

[Deleted member 184142]

I will have to upgrade my twinscroll to electric. And I thought I had instant boost!

Best thing about them (big time for F1), is to be able to match not only boost per gear, but boost per RPM, on demand, and when the boost is not needed, its charging the system. Consumer side, most electric turbos are a bad ebay joke, but the idea, when done right, works really well. Now that OEMs are putting these into cars, we will probably start to see some real and useful electric turbos for the aftermarket crowd.

 

[SLee]

My guess would be that it's easier to customize customer cars, less overhead, and the profit goes directly to them and not partially to a dealership network. I'm not sure, I don't know much about car sales..

You don't need to be direct to customize, a Porsche can be pretty much configured whatever way you want and some of the high-end German models and Detroit 3 pickup trucks are often custom ordered from the factory. It's just that it's generally more efficient to build batches of similar trim vehicles at a time.

 

[Dr. Righteous]

These types of engines are known as adiabatic engines, hot running, ultra lean, and are nothing new, they just don't work, or if they do, don't work for long because they detonate very easy or melt pistons. There has been work on ceramic and carbon-carbon pistons etc to handle these temps, but those kinds of materials are ungodly expensive.

Smokey Yunick had running and driving prototypes with 0 problems. He expected one of the big 3 to buy his system but instead they tried to squash him.
I believe the basic patents for this are public domain now; but the real secrets Smokey took to the grave with him.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

Smokey Yunick had running and driving prototypes with 0 problems. He expected one of the big 3 to buy his system but instead they tried to squash him.
I believe the basic patents for this are public domain now; but the real secrets Smokey took to the grave with him.

See my above post.

This is the most common form of scam. Might as well be trying to sell some HHO systems.

 

[DocSavage]

See my above post.

This is the most common form of scam. Might as well be trying to sell some HHO systems.

I hate to diss on the great Smokey Yunick, but you have some good points. That article with the Fiero points out several times that it's not turbocharged, but there is clearly a turbo there feeding the engine. I suppose if his technique has validity, someone will eventually recreate it.

 

[TMCM]

ceramic coat the forged pistons, valves, combustion chamber, and the inside of the exhaust manifold. run you rA/F at 20:1 and you will make crazy power and get great mileage. its also incredibly expensive...Smokey was full of shit

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

My guess would be that it's easier to customize customer cars, less overhead, and the profit goes directly to them and not partially to a dealership network. I'm not sure, I don't know much about car sales.

But ya, dealerships were fuming that the Tesla wasn't going to be sold in their dealerships. A lot of states have restrictive laws disallowing auto manufacturers from owning dealerships. They have a big court case right now in Utah. Going to the Supreme Court there.

I would imagine it also forces quality/appearance to meet certain standards before it goes the customer. Based on prior experience, not every dealership treats their cars to a gold standard if it isn't in the showroom.