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Attitudes towards Computer Science
- Thread starter Cyrilix
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GushpinBob
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I can relate.
Shadowssong
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Hahahaha, that made me laugh because my most recent programming class was covering algorithm analysis and big O run time. I actually just switched from a BS to a BA in CS because the BA didn't require Calc II or Discrete II (both of which I dread taking) and instead I just have to pick a minor (I chose IT). I'm sure once the BA in CS becomes more known it will be very popular because I know that the amount of math involved was just getting intense (and discrete math is the most worthless sack of shit class I've ever taken).
News flash: Coding isn't easy. Can you write code without understanding math? Yes, but to truly write good code you need to understand discrete math. Calc, not as much, but if you're planning on getting into games there's a LOT of math and physics involved. If you can't deal with math, this is NOT the major for you.
Lord Nassirbannipal
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I had planned on taking computer science, but I really put off by the sheer volume of math involved. Math has always been the subject that I've hated the most. For this reason, I decided to go into Computer and Networking Administration.
While I think programming, depending on what you program, may require some math, usually, it requires little more than high school math. Programming games and 3D engines, however, is an entirely different thing and you'd best know your linear algebra pretty well.
That said, I think there are a few different types of math/logic in CS.
1 - linear algebra, vectors and vector spaces, matrix transformations, etc.
2 - algorithm analysis such as asymptotic analysis (time and space complexity), upper and lower bounds, sometimes requires calculus
3 - theory of computation, formal languages and automata
To be honest, I don't really enjoy any of the above, but out of them all, I prefer #2.
That said, I think there are a few different types of math/logic in CS.
1 - linear algebra, vectors and vector spaces, matrix transformations, etc.
2 - algorithm analysis such as asymptotic analysis (time and space complexity), upper and lower bounds, sometimes requires calculus
3 - theory of computation, formal languages and automata
To be honest, I don't really enjoy any of the above, but out of them all, I prefer #2.
I know people that enjoy the math but hate the programming, and I also know others that enjoy the programming but hate the theoretical stuff. CS attracts both types I guess. I actually wanted to program games before I started CS. After doing some basic stuff in OpenGL (got to the terrain visualization and lighting), I decided that I didn't like graphics programming after all. These days, I try to stick to frameworks and generic libraries. For some reason, I have a love of mid-level code, neither high-level stuff like GUIs nor low-level stuff like the actual operating system kernel.
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NoForgiveness
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That's what I was like except I was thinking "Man, I just want to work on computers". I definitely dropped out, not because of the math though, I just realized that I was going to waste a lot of time because I didn't want any kind of position that required a computer science degree (programmer, engineer, etc). A few years later now and I'm getting certified instead. Still thinking of going to college for something though, mostly due to boredom, and thoughts of doing something else with my life besides fix computers.
Math wasn't that bad for me. Well, I took Calc 1 five times before I finally passed it (with an A of all things). After that I just kept going in it until I hit a brick wall with Dif Eq.
Computer Organization: Logic gates, building your own CPU, and Assembly. Now THAT stuff weeds out CS majors like no other class I've seen. Math in binary will screw up your head if you're too rooted in base-10.
Computer Organization: Logic gates, building your own CPU, and Assembly. Now THAT stuff weeds out CS majors like no other class I've seen. Math in binary will screw up your head if you're too rooted in base-10.
That's not the problem I was describing. There are some CS graduates who go into programming careers and it's really not for them at all. The majority I've seen do fairly well, but a good percentage just don't have the drive to do it.
PornoSatan
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Well, depends on the angle they're going about it. I knew a girl who wanted to become a computer programmer simply because she used her computer alot, (and did nothing but essentially chat, I once had to go over and "fix" it because she hit F11 in IE on accident). I also know this guy who wanted to become a programmer simply because he used his computer alot, in a mostly typical user fashion, without ever delving into anything too technical. In my opinion, the guys that succeed are the guys that do it on their free time, because they enjoy it. It's fun to them. You need to have a passion for something to truly shine at it.
Yeah, many types of programming require self-motivation and the ones not into it just get further behind their peers with the same amount of experience. There's definitely tiers where I worked:
Liked to program:
-Great workers, capable of their share and more of the workload
-God in their own mind, although not near that in actual skill, still quite capable
-Head down worker drone, has a safe job
-God in their own mind, although nowhere near that in actual skill
-Get it right, eventually
Meh about programming:
-Their struggle becomes everyone problems due to constant pestering and zero drive to learn on their own
-Complain about everything (usually software tools, but also hardware) in an effort to do as little as possible
-Actually do very little because that's all he or she is capable of
-I need to pay my mortgage and there's little need for punch card operators anymore, this seems like the same thing
-Have you seen my stapler?
I think the problem is computer scientist and programmer are not synonymous but its pretty much the only major many universities offer
they need to do a better job catering to the huge group of students who just want to grab their BS and get out into the work force where they most likely will be working on higher level applications
they need to do a better job catering to the huge group of students who just want to grab their BS and get out into the work force where they most likely will be working on higher level applications
lol, x2! I aced all Calc I,II,III, but discrete was the only class I ever failed in college. Switched from Computer Engineering to electrical and I'm doing better now
Shadowssong
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lol, x2! I aced all Calc I,II,III, but discrete was the only class I ever failed in college. Switched from Computer Engineering to electrical and I'm doing better now
Seriously discrete is terrible, although I actually pulled off a B in the class by cramming for about 72 hours in 4 days for the final (got like a 95 on it). Either way, that class has yet to have any real application for programming (atleast as far as I've gotten), but that can be said for a lot of classes I've had to take lol.
GushpinBob
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Take a Data Structures or Algorithms course and you'll find yourself thumbing through that Discrete math book to jog your memory. I guarantee it.
beyond just getting used to some of the notation mine's didnt help much at all
calculus was ok, yet i quickly lost interest beyond the regular stuff but the discrete math was ridiculous
had a 3 course series for it and came out just as confused as when I came in
Shadowssong
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I already took Data structures and Algorithm Analysis, I used 0% discrete.
Cerulean
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Well, I'm totally screwed then. When there's a will, there's a way. But if that will isn't there, better not even continue.
Lately I've completely lost the will and interest to learn ANYTHING in/from/at college. Don't care about math any more either.
I think it's unrealistic to learn how to do something complicated with computers (like program video games) without understanding how computers work. On the other hand, I think there are other ways to teach students how computers work than the in-depth discussion implied by the cartoon's dialogue.
The panel, to me, implies the real problem: students expect that they don't need talent, work, or drive and can just jump in to start working on their goals rather than spending the time required to perfect requisite skills. Imagine the same cartoon for a civil engineering student learning about stress tensors, thinking he just wanted to learn to build bridges.
enlightenedby42
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I was exactly the opposite, actually. It was very easy for me to gain an intuitive understanding of most of the discrete math material, but I had a rough time with all of the abstract stuff in Calculus.lol, x2! I aced all Calc I,II,III, but discrete was the only class I ever failed in college. Switched from Computer Engineering to electrical and I'm doing better now
I think math is easier for me when I can directly relate it to something in the real world, or at the very least quickly pick up the patterns and run with them.
Well, if all you want to do is build bridges, I assume your intent is to be more of an architect and less of an engineer. Architect schools are typically schools of art, with maybe a bit of engineering on the side to support the art.
Likewise, software development and design is more of an art, a technical art, but still more like an art than a math. Specific applications of software development require more mathematics such as math simulators and 3D engines, but most software development requires little math, just an understanding of the systems and technologies that you use. Even optimizing an algorithm can be done mostly creatively, if you can somehow convince yourself that the algorithm is mathematically correct.
Whatsisname
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No, building bridges beyond simple steel and concrete girder bridges is 95% engineering and 5% art. You don't "creatively" figure out how much material and what kind of dynamic loads you are going to encounter.
You cannot optimize an algorithm "creatively". You can stumble on something by chance "creatively", but you are not going to improve performance reliably except through rigorous mathematical analysis.
The cartoon is like a med student complaining about learning anatomy, saying that he just wants to be a surgeon.
You cannot optimize an algorithm "creatively". You can stumble on something by chance "creatively", but you are not going to improve performance reliably except through rigorous mathematical analysis.
The cartoon is like a med student complaining about learning anatomy, saying that he just wants to be a surgeon.
The bridges that you describe are lining the bottom of ravines.
Indeed. I think it's notable that the distraught student is the only one with an empty desk.
Discrete Math is used all the time... whenever you pay your bills online, buy from an online store or login to your paid porn site.
Look up Pulic Key Encryption and number theory.
A great book examining the relationship between discrete mathematics and computer science was written by Donald Knuth: Concrete Mathematics: A Foundation for Computer Sciencehttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201558025/mooseboycom-20/
Quick question for you guys then. I'm currently enrolled in a BS Computer Engineering Technology with Devry University (Math Requirements are Physics and Calc II). Was thinking about switching to Computer Science with University of Maryland College University College (Calc II top required math).
Before you guys bash my online schooling just be aware I'm in the military and stationed in Europe for 4 years. So I can't go to traditional school.
I like computers, I like taking things apart, I like hands on and I probably don't have the attention span for very in-depth programming but I'm willing to give it a shot. My ultimate goal is to do something involving computer/electronics hardware, possibly something R&D would be cool but I like soldering, understanding circuits, system architecture, (servers are networking are something I hope to learn one day as well, theory of IP addresses etc.) I haven't played with Ardunios yet and the only thing holding me back is the coding (and creativity to design something useful) but I'm really interested in building and then coding my own stuff.
I'm having trouble deciding on computer science or computer engineering technology.... any advice on where I should go?
Before you guys bash my online schooling just be aware I'm in the military and stationed in Europe for 4 years. So I can't go to traditional school.
I like computers, I like taking things apart, I like hands on and I probably don't have the attention span for very in-depth programming but I'm willing to give it a shot. My ultimate goal is to do something involving computer/electronics hardware, possibly something R&D would be cool but I like soldering, understanding circuits, system architecture, (servers are networking are something I hope to learn one day as well, theory of IP addresses etc.) I haven't played with Ardunios yet and the only thing holding me back is the coding (and creativity to design something useful) but I'm really interested in building and then coding my own stuff.
I'm having trouble deciding on computer science or computer engineering technology.... any advice on where I should go?
Just looked into it after I wrote that and sort of answered my own question. I guess I'll just go with the computer engineering technology degree and hope that I can transfer some credits into a traditional school when I come back from overseas. My course now only requires up to Calc II and the Comp Eng degree from San Diego State requires up to Linear Algebra.
Should be pretty difficult because I'm learning calc etc for the first time on an online school with no calculus background.
jimbowdang
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I actually enjoyed my Discrete Math class. The first day my professor told the class, "There are two things that I will definitely ask you on the final. The first is to prove Euclid's theorem, and the second is to explain RSA cryptography." Computer Architecture was fun too. I've never minded math too much, now on the other hand put me into a creative writing class and watch me sweat.
Trade brains?
I actually walked out and dropped ENG101 when the professor asked us to write a 1000 word essay on why we are in college on the first day.
Math is natural to me, I enjoy solving complex equations, even if I still haven't figured out how it applies to CS. I have faith that it will reveal itself in due time.
InternationalHat
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I did well in discrete, but I don't remember much of it. I programmed a game for my final project. The highest level math I used was trig. You generally will only use calc/discrete and all that matrix math crap when you're working with 3d engines in games. However, commercial game programming is a quick ticket to suicide, being poor, and/or a divorce. Seriously, my friend went to EA and I wouldn't wish a game programming job on my worst enemies. It's horrible.
I use very little higher-level math at my job. When I did financial programming, I used a lot more but it's all very specific to the problem domain. Knowing all the CS math won't help you much for that. I generally dislike working with CS majors though... somehow the extreme focus on math turns them all into procedural programmers. When you're trying to solve a business problem, it's often better working with other developers whose credentials are from experience and have weird degrees. These kind of people seem better suited to doing a good job with decomposition and don't get as mired in implementation details in the early stages.
I use very little higher-level math at my job. When I did financial programming, I used a lot more but it's all very specific to the problem domain. Knowing all the CS math won't help you much for that. I generally dislike working with CS majors though... somehow the extreme focus on math turns them all into procedural programmers. When you're trying to solve a business problem, it's often better working with other developers whose credentials are from experience and have weird degrees. These kind of people seem better suited to doing a good job with decomposition and don't get as mired in implementation details in the early stages.
Haha. What our prof told us on the first day was "this class has an 80% failure rate." She wasn't kidding
. We never covered anything related to computers though, just theorems, proofs, combinatorics, etc...You sure that was still engineering technology at SDSU? There IS a difference.